Next Up In The Sexual Assault Allegations List

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frimble3

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I hate the fact he did it when she was asleep, though. I really hate that.
And had it filmed. He wasn't even doing it for a response from her. He reduced her to a prop in a 'comedy' skit. Like Benny Hill, for reals. How many times has he used that as an excuse for a grope?
"Let's practice, honey!"
But, agreeing with Nighttimer, let's see what the next few days bring.
 

cornflake

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Interesting.

Former Trump campaign adviser Roger Stone appeared to know there were sexual misconduct allegations involving Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) hours before they became public.

Stone has been banned from Twitter, but at 1 a.m. on Thursday morning an account connected to him tweeted a quote from the Republican political operative.

"Roger Stone says it's Al Franken's 'time in the barrel'. Franken next in long list of Democrats to be accused of 'grabby' behavior," read the tweet from Enter the Stone Zone.
 

shakeysix

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Too bad. I really thought the guy was better than that. Like Al Capp and Bill Cosby. If his apology is accepted then maybe he will stay but he has no credence with me. --s6
 

AncientEagle

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The question you suggest is exactly the one I have been asking myself over the past few weeks. Although I have yet to recall a specific "yes" case, that doesn't mean that something I considered unthreatening might not have felt the exact opposite to a date, or to someone I met casually and talked with, or whatever. It is terribly depressing to think I might ever have conducted myself in some way even slightly similar to some of the sleaze balls I now read about or hear about on the evening news. Even without any recognizable serious offense, I am bothered by the thought that I came out of an era where expectations regarding sexual abuse, like those regarding racism, were miles lower than today, and it's too easy to use that as an excuse for earlier lapses.
 

CWatts

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Not to derail, but with all the talk about a mistake ruining somebody's career or their life - what about the thousands of people imprisoned over non-violent drug offenses? I have a lot more sympathy for someone who got caught with a little bit of pot than those who groped or flashed somebody.
 

AW Admin

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In the context of Al Franken, I thought this Washington Post article by Kate Harding was interesting.

I’m a feminist. I study rape culture. And I don’t want Al Franken to resign

She makes a number of interesting points, and I think one of them is that Franken won't be the only Democrat or Republican Congress member tagged with this kind of horrendous behavior. I agree we need to be consistent, across party lines, but I'm going have to think a bit longer about some of what she says.
 

Roxxsmom

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Although you're right, I don't know if they could have been separated.
One of the good things about the sexual revolution was the rise in social acceptance of contraception, which helped to topple the idea of women as breeding machines, not to mention reducing the risks to life and health. The battle for women's autonomy is, in large part, a battle against the view of women as sexual and reproductive devices that exist to service men.

Exactly, and the development and increased availability of reliable contraception was both a consequence and an accelerator of feminism in the 20th century. But some guys never got the memo that sex is a mutual activity, with women as active participants, not objects. The idea that sex is supposed to be mutually pleasurable and desired just didn't register for way too many.

I don't think it's possible to separate to two, though.

I've run across traditionalists who insist that feminism is to blame for rape culture, not only because it puts women in harm's way, but because it made men feel that women didn't need them to provide anything in return for sex. According to this reasoning, men stopped respecting women, because women were giving them "free sex" en masse.

I call BS on that, because rape and sexual harassment are hardly new issues. They've been with us throughout history, and even in cloistered societies, women are often in "harm's way." But when women are out of the public eye, confined only to certain spheres, so is the abuse of women.

It's also complete BS that men can't respect or love women who have "free" sex with them. I know plenty of women, including myself, who have loving, respectful relationships with men (including marriage, if it is wanted) with men with whom they had "premarital" sex.

As for feminism (and the greater prominence of women in public life), imo it is what made women (at least) know that sexual exploitation isn't just "how things are," and it gave women the means to speak out against it, at least sometimes. And it gave some women (though not all yet) the economic means to leave abusive or unsatisfying relationships with men and to live independently from men if they desire.
 
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Tazlima

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In the context of Al Franken, I thought this Washington Post article by Kate Harding was interesting.

I’m a feminist. I study rape culture. And I don’t want Al Franken to resign

She makes a number of interesting points, and I think one of them is that Franken won't be the only Democrat or Republican Congress member tagged with this kind of horrendous behavior. I agree we need to be consistent, across party lines, but I'm going have to think a bit longer about some of what she says.

My boyfriend and I had this exact discussion (almost argument) last night, him saying that it's better to keep Franken around and forward women's rights in general via Democrats gaining power, and me basically saying wrong is wrong and should be ferretted out regardless of where it's found (Complicated, of course, by the fact that so far, the allegations against Franken and Moore are vastly different in scope and don't necessarily warrant the same response anyway).

As far as I'm concerned, when a group becomes so determined to remain in power that they're willing to overlook any and all personal shortcomings of their representatives, when they'd willingly lose their souls rather than lose an election, well... the end result of that kind of thinking is Donald Trump.

Compromising your integrity and values in an effort to uphold those values is like eating your own flesh to keep from starving.
 
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Tazlima

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Instead, what happened was that his election became one of the bigger metaphors for what actually has happened on a million small levels, in all of our work lives. Which is, the crap guy who groped you, or propositioned you, or retaliated against you at the workplace got the bigger job. And it didn’t even matter that you filed the complaint, or that you told your friends, or that you’d confronted him, or whatever you did. It didn’t matter. He got promoted. That guy got the job.

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And in fact, the popular vote thing I think matters here, because there was this sense like, “we can vote against him.” And 3 million more people voted for his opponent, and he still got the job. It was like the perfect example of how the systems align.

I've been trying to put this feeling into words for a while now. These words are perfect.


ETA - Went back and finished reading the article. We live in interesting times...
 
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JJ Litke

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The response is irrelevant. It is the act that is important.

NO. The response is extremely important. Someone who refuses to admit what they did is wrong or keeps trying to justify it, that's the person who will do it again. They're practically telling you that in their reaction. Someone who admits they did wrong and expresses remorse, that person has potential to recover.

Saying the response isn't important completely removes the idea that anyone is capable of growth or change. We've all done things wrong. And afterward you don't get to just shrug and pretend it doesn't matter. You have to make restitution as is possible and learn to be better.
 

lizmonster

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All I know is that the GOP is going to keep pointing at progressives and screaming "Hypocrites!" while we're doing something about the problem and they're insisting the @#$%!ing POTUS was just being a guy. And they'll keep enacting legislation that'll shove us faster and faster into the Dark Ages.

And the end result, this year or next year or five years from now, will be, yet again, "Women need to lighten up."

I am tired.
 

MaeZe

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That might be a baseless conspiracy theory. Further down the page is this story: The Hill: LA radio station: We tipped off 'news partners' before publishing Franken allegations
A Los Angeles radio station is pushing back on reports that former Trump campaign adviser Roger Stone appeared to know sexual misconduct allegations involving Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) were coming hours before they were made public.

In a statement Friday, KABC said a “very small group” of employees discussed the best day for host Leeann Tweeden to come forward with her account of being forcibly kissed and groped by Franken in 2006.

The station says it informed “some of our news partners so they could prepare to cover what we knew was a very significant story."

“None of us involved in the decision on when to go public coordinated with any group, campaign or individuals outside of the news industry,” the station said. “We have no political agenda. Leeann’s story is not about keeping secrets, it’s about letting the truth be known.”
I sense Tweeden seriously dislikes Franken but I didn't sense this was any kind of Fox News or alt-right manufactured stunt.
 

CWatts

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eqb

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I hate the fact he did it when she was asleep, though. I really hate that.

He did that while she slept, and he took pictures. That makes me ill.

And, okay, he did make a no excuses apology, but I am exhausted to the point where I just want them all gone. From movies, from government, left or right, I don't care.

Because behind that apology was someone who forced a tongue kiss, didn't like rejection, so went to petty and vindictive. At least he didn't rape her. ????!!!!!! And *that* sums up the problem.
 
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mccardey

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He did that while she slept, and he took pictures. That makes me ill.

And, okay he did make a no excuses apology, but I am exhausted to the point where I just want them all gone. From movies, from government, left or right, I don't care.

Because behind that apology was someone who forced a tongue kiss, didn't like rejection, so went to petty and vindictive. Athe least he didn't rape her. ????!!!!!! And *that* sums up the problem.
I know. I have heard "It's not as bad as Weinstein" half a dozen times now, and I keep saying WEINSTEIN IS NOT THE STANDARD ONE SHOULD ASPIRE TO BE BETTER THAN. DON'T ABUSE WOMEN! (sorry for the all-caps.)

ETA: Sorry not sorry for the all-caps as it turns out. I was going to downgrade them, but my head is still shouty.
 

Roxxsmom

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This articulates a fear I have too, though there are other things in the article I find problematic.

The reason there is a backlash is because white men still have power. And so there will be resistance from those power-holders, combined with the various people who want to support that kind of power. That includes lots of white women, and older people who came of age in a different world. There are lots of us who want to return to the norm; ultimately that norm adheres around the power structures and the ability to abuse power that we’ve always known, and that is fundamentally a white patriarchy. And that’s how we know there will be a backlash, because we still live in a white patriarchy and so there will still be the power and then the incentives laid out for people to come and quell this.

The question I have is how can we prevent this from happening? It sounds a bit like he's saying that women shouldn't have called attention to this behavior after all, because it's only going to be used against us and could result in increased harm to women. It almost sounds like concern trolling, though I hope that isn't the intent behind the article.

What's the answer then? It's true that this current series of stories about sexual abusers isn't a new thing--it's been happening off and on since the 70s (when the term sexual harassment was first coined). We've forgotten Anita Hill (and Clarence Thomas was confirmed anyway), and we've forgotten Trump's pussy grabbing (and he was elected anyway). Bill Cosby, Jian Ghomeshi and other "alleged" rapists have been acquitted and have faded from the news. It always seems to happen this way.

Very few of these men suffer any long-term consequences. But the power structure that allows this persists, and the hatred of and contempt for women by far too many men seems to go on forever.

Should women just shut up because outing abusers never seems to change anything, and it might invite backlash against women if they continue?

What we need is not just a backlash against the individual men who do these things, but against the entire system that preserves the power differential that makes this possible. But getting more women into positions of power and ending the income disparity and societal institutions that keep women subordinate is going to take time and sustained effort. What can we do when "women's issues" are so associated with politics that people living in many parts of the country have been taught to hate? A large number of women will never back "women's issues", even if they are victims of the patriarchal system too.

Women seem to be much more divided than other traditionally disenfranchised groups re policies intended to increase their standing and status in society.
 
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mccardey

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Srsly - Is it time to get rid of men? I mean - we gave it a shot, right? Do we really need them though?
 

CWatts

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Srsly - Is it time to get rid of men? I mean - we gave it a shot, right? Do we really need them though?

Well there's what you do to a dog that won't stop humping your leg....

ETA: No offense to your avatar.

Also, in terms of real-world solutions - body cams for maids? That would also protect against (accusations of) theft.
 
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nighttimer

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Here's something else we need to talk about. The women who defend the men who sexually harass women. Which is why Lena Dunham is getting her turn in the dunk tank.

Lena Dunham has issued an apology via Twitter for defending her friend and former Girls writer, Murray Miller, against rape allegations.

Read Dunham’s full statement below.

As feminists, we live and die by our politics, and believing women is the first choice we make every single day when we wake up. Therefore I never thought I would issue a statement publically (sic) supporting someone accused of sexual assault, but I naively believed it was important to share my perspective on my friend’s situation as it has transpired behind the scenes over the last few months. I now understand that it was absolutely the wrong time to come forward with such a statement and I am so sorry. We have been given the gift of powerful voices and by speaking out we were putting our thumb on the scale and it was wrong. We regret this decision with every fiber of our being.

Every woman who comes forward deserves to be heard, fully and completely, and our relationship to the accused should not be part of the calculation anyone makes when examining her case. Every person and every feminist should be required to hear her. Under patriarchy, “I believe you” is essential. Until we are all believed, none of us will be believed. We apologize to any women who have been disappointed.


Here's the reason for Dunham's apology
.
Girls writer Murray Miller has been accused of sexual assault by actress Aurora Perrineau. The incident allegedly occurred when the actress was 17-years-old.

Aurora, the 23-year-old daughter of Lost star Harold Perrineau, stated in a polygraph (that she passed) obtained by The Wrap that she met the writer when she was out with friends drinking and informed him she was underage. Miller then became drunk, and asked her friends for a ride home. Once they arrived to his house, everyone got out and went inside, but she only followed because she “felt like I had to go along with everyone else.”


“He was flirting with me. I told him repeatedly that I was 17 years old,” she said in the statement.


“At some point I woke up in Murray’s bed naked. He was on top of me having sexual intercourse with me. At no time did I consent to any sexual contact with Murray,” she said.


Aurora Perrineau filed a report on the alleged incident on Friday with the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department according to The Hollywood Reporter.

Now here’s where “feminism is for white women” comes into play. Just recently, Dunham said that all women should be believed when it comes to accusations of rape. But apparently that doesn’t apply to women who have allegedly been raped by her friends.

Dunham and Girls showrunner Jenni Konner issued a statement defending Miller:

During the windfall of deeply necessary accusations over the last few months in Hollywood, we have been thrilled to see so many women’s voices heard and dark experiences in this industry justified. It’s a hugely important time of change and, like every feminist in Hollywood and beyond, we celebrate. But during every time of change there are also incidences of the culture, in its enthusiasm and zeal, taking down the wrong targets. We believe, having worked closely with him for more than half a decade, that this is the case with Murray Miller. While our first instinct is to listen to every woman’s story, our insider knowledge of Murray’s situation makes us confident that sadly this accusation is one of the 3 percent of assault cases that are misreported every year. It is a true shame to add to that number, as outside of Hollywood women still struggle to be believed. We stand by Murray and this is all we’ll be saying about this issue.

Miller has also denied the allegations through his attorney, who also issued a statement.

“Mr. Miller categorically and vehemently denies Ms. Perrineau’s outrageous claims,” attorney Don Walerstein said in a statement. “After being contacted several weeks ago by lawyers who—on Ms. Perrineau’s behalf—sought substantial monetary damages from him, Mr. Miller’s legal team gathered overwhelming evidence directly contradicting these false and offensive claims.”

The relationship between White feminism and Black feminism has always been highly flammable. Actions by Dunham, and her problematic remarks about Black men, have set it on fire. :flamethrower
 
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