Questions: Passive Voice/Non-Passive Voice Density in Manuscripts

KendallDavis

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Hello, my name is Kendall and I am new here. I read the title of every thread in this forum back to 2005, so I do not think that I am repeating an issue, plus that gave me the opportunity to read some extremely insightful threads.

Since publishers and/or agents reject 90% of submissions, my questions involve what they may consider too many passive voice, even-though-not-passive-voice-but-uses-to be-verb phrases and clauses, and infinitives.

My examples:

The house was quiet; too quiet.

I would never see a dime from my brother.

Jeff Bezos created Amazon.com for the likes of me; the truth was that I hated Christmas.

I hate to shop for Christmas gifts.

My mother was not satisfied until I tried on the fruits of her labor.

Michael was spending time alone with Dad.

My questions:

Do any of those example questions raise a red flag with a publisher?

Are there density issues with those sentence structures when it comes to a publisher? (meaning can there be too many of those structures/syntaxes)

Thank you in advance for your considerations.
 
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ElaineA

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None of those are passive voice. The Grammar Girl has a really easy primer on active v. passive voice.
What Is Active Voice?

I'll start with active voice because it's simpler. In an active sentence, the subject is doing the action. A straightforward example is the sentence "Steve loves Amy." Steve is the subject, and he is doing the action: he loves Amy, the object of the sentence.

Another example is the title of the Marvin Gaye song “I Heard It through the Grapevine.” "I" is the subject, the one who is doing the action. "I" is hearing "it," the object of the sentence.

What Is Passive Voice?

In passive voice, the target of the action gets promoted to the subject position. Instead of saying, "Steve loves Amy," I would say, "Amy is loved by Steve." The subject of the sentence becomes Amy, but she isn't doing anything. Rather, she is just the recipient of Steve's love. The focus of the sentence has changed from Steve to Amy.

If you wanted to make the title of the Marvin Gaye song passive, you would say “It was heard by me through the grapevine,” not such a catchy title anymore.

Too much "was" can be indicative of sentence issues, but it can also be part of voice, tense, other structural set-ups that require a "was." There's no magic-math rubric for publisher regarding density of passive/active voice. It's all about story first. Write your best story in the best, most grammatically sound way possible, and try not to overthink what might get a R. :)
 

AW Admin

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Kendell I'm moving this to the Grammar and Syntax subforum.

This comes up a lot.
 

KendallDavis

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Hi Lisa, I just answered your message. I titled the post wrong. My main question is do those structures set off red flags for publishers and agents? So, thank you Elaine. that is the information I am seeking. There are so many times that the best way to say something uses a to be verb, but it is not passive. I want to know if those structures are acceptable to publishers.
 
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AW Admin

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Hi Lisa, I just answered your message. I titled the post wrong. My main question is do those structures set off red flags for publishers and agents? So, thank you Elaine. that is the information I am seeking. There are so many times that the best way to say something uses a to be verb, but it is not passive. I want to know if those structures are acceptable to editors.

They're looking for a story that fosters narrative lust. Grammar can be fixed; story, well, that's a lot harder.
 

KendallDavis

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Yep! The story needs to be a page turner! Thanks so much!
 
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Roxxsmom

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To answer your question, Kendall, I think it depends on the circumstances in which these "to be" verb containing constructs are used, what your narrative voice is, and (as AW Administrator said) how good and potentially marketable they think your overall story is. Writing style is a part of what can grab a reader, but a quick perusal of popular novels reveals quite a few sentences like the ones you describe. That's not to say there aren't plenty of times when a stronger, more evocative verb wouldn't make a sentence read better.

When you get to 50 substantial posts (meaning they represent genuine efforts to engage with the community and have possibly offered some feedback on others' work), you can share an excerpt from your story or novel in share your work. Members can weigh in on whether or not they think your narrative style is working or not.
 
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KendallDavis

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Thank you Roxxsmom. In this case, the narrative voice is highly creative. I ask these precise questions because they are issues that I have been pondering over for a long time, and/or I have not been able to find the answers on my own. LOL, I want that master's degree education in editing if there is such a degree. I am writing my own editing book, and this book is just for me. I do not think any one else would understand it. It is my never ending Grammar, Dialogue, Editing, and Publishing Guide.

Oh, goodness, me critique? I do not think I am worthy! More than likely, I will not post my work. I mainly write to get paid with no expectations of a byline. I do write semimonthly articles for a large ezine which is mostly historical vignettes. I am a only a glorified journalist and not an author.
 

blacbird

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As ElaineA said, none of those examples are in passive voice. As they are all isolated, without surrounding context, it's impossible to tell if they represent overused, repetitive constructions or not.

caw
 

KendallDavis

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Thank you blacbird. I find it hard to explain that even though they are not passive, they still use the "to be" conjugations, and a writer would want to limit the usage of those constructions, but I cannot tell them why, and then add that they also may find those constructions effective in certain contexts. Plus, I have read over and over again that overuse of passive voice is one of the main reasons for publisher rejections, from publishers. When I read that, I think, well, what about the density of too many other weak constructions with the “to be” verb.
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People ask me questions from my articles that I cannot answer, and a couple of writers from my world have asked me to attend a writer’s group and talk about editing. I cannot do that until I can speak knowledgeably about editing. From their work, the main problems I see are weak sentence construction, passive voice, too much of the construction examples I posted here, and punctuation. I simply do not have the education to give an editing presentation, and I am probably misguided on several levels.

I am not an editor. I edit my work. I help people, if they ask, with editing. But, I can only say that is wrong, and I cannot tell you why, but I can show you how to make the sentence/paragraph stronger. I firmly believe that every writer needs an editor, and you get what you pay for. I continuously study the art of editing because I cannot afford an experienced editor. Now, armed with this information, I will take the constructions, label them like past continuous, etc., and add them to my never-ending guide.
 
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Dawnstorm

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I find it hard to explain that even though they are not passive, they still use the "to be" conjugations, and a writer would want to limit the usage of those constructions, but I cannot tell them why, and then add that they also may find those constructions effective in certain contexts.

I'm not an editor. I'm not even really a writer anymore (since I don't write). But I'm a reader, and I've hung out on message boards and have seen what "should-limit" advice can do to a text. Very early on it may help; later on it may become a source of unfounded anxiety. What this boils down to in practice is this:

Because some do it "too much", everybody should be told to do it less.

For a lot of people, that's unneccessary busywork, and for some it's downright desastrous to go down that route, because it estranges them from their own style. The problem doesn't really lie with the advice itself; it generally lies with the way it's phrased: as prohibitive. Don't do this, don't do that. They may only be guidelines, but that way, rather than getting the idea that - if you work on some aspects here and there you can get even better - you get the idea that if you're not careful, you're writing's going to be bad and nobody will want to read it. How many threads on websites start with "is it okay to...?" It's depressing really. Try it out, see if it works. Play around with it. See what else you can do. But don't stigmatise the majority of your toolset, because it's not going to result in short, sleek action sentences.

As for the grammar:

"The house was quiet; too quiet."
"...the truth was that I hated Christmas."

"Was", here, functions as a linking verb, linking the subject to a predicative adjective in the first case and to a dependent clause in the second case.

Predicative adjectives are fairly common in fiction, and "to be" is the most common way to introduce them. Other linking verbs might give more flavour "the house seemed/felt quiet", and then there are complete outliers that draw attention to their own stylishness, like "The house: quiet, too quiet." There are plenty of options.

If you're going for something more active, you could for example personify "the silence", and write something "Silence engulfed the house...", but you'll usually end up with more pathos that way. A lot depends on the general style of the text.

"...was that" constructions are rarer than predicative adjectives. When they do occur, it's usually in stock phrases such as "the truth was..." in your example. There's little to say about that: when it's okay to use them in real life, it's also okay to use them in fiction. But they're not going to be the spearhead of your style's literary appeal. However, you can't underestimate the effect of "downtime" in your text, and this is where such expressions shine, or rather where their failure to shine gives your readers a chance to catch their breath.

"My mother was not satisfied until I tried on the fruits of her labor."

This could be read as another instance of linking verb + predicative adjective, but it's also the one example that can be read as an instance of passive voice (the active version being something like "Nothing satisfied my mother until..."). In this case, a lot of the things I said about predicative adjectives also imply; it's not really the posterbook example for the anti-passive-voice prejudice, and I'd rather not go into it (it's the first one that surprised me with its existance and has remained a special irritant ever since).

"I would never see a dime from my brother."

A modal auxiliary verb; "would" is here used in its function as future-in-the-past. It's the past tense of "will"; but while "will" is usually a prediction ("I will never see a dime a from my brother" - surprise is unlikely but possible), "would" is in the past, and the event has already failed to occur. Modal auxiliaries are important to express various modalities (prediction, possibility, etc.). You can write a story without ever resorting to one, but there's really no reason to restrict yourself like that.

"Michael was spending time alone with Dad."

The past continuous is smilarly pretty common, but fiction has somewhat less of it than other modes of writing. A lot of what you would normally say in continuous you'll say in a simple tense in fiction. For example: You've just woken up, and you're looking out of your window. You're not very like to say "The sun shines." You're using the continuous: "The sun is shining." In fiction, sencences like the "The sun shone," are fairly common, even if you're not just recounting facts, but are trying to weave a string of images.

However, sentences like "the sun was shining," is also fairly common. I think it was Geoffry Leech in Meaning And the English Verb who said that the difference between the simple and the continuous aspect in fiction is one of foreground and background. If you use simple tense, then you're drawing attention to what's happening, but if you're using the continuous aspect, you're setting up expectations that something else soon going to happen (because the continuous aspect expresses duration, it's often used to frame events: "We were eating dinner, when the clock fell from the wall.")

"I hate to shop for Christmas gifts."

I'm not quite sure why this is on list. Show, don't tell, maybe? Saying what we mean in plain words is not a bad thing, and neither is expressing attitudes, I think.

Ideally, studying grammar should expand your toolset by making you more conscious of what you can do with it. That's not going to happen if all you get out of it is the correct terms for things to avoid. And that's a very real danger. The key point I intend to make with this post is not that you shouldn't criticise things. But it's my experience that if you show a writer what they CAN do instead, they get excited and start experimenting, but if you tell a writer what they should avoid if they ever wish to be published they get to anxious to experiment. And if you don't experiment, you're not going to find your voice.
 

KendallDavis

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Wow, Dawnstorm! For someone who only reads at this time, you sure store up a boatload of knowledge! You just wrote this chapter in my never-ending guide for me in the exact language that I would have spent hours researching and writing.

To shop = infinitive; that is the only reason that example is here.

I also firmly believe that teaching has to be executed in the positive because as you said, if you show a writer what they CAN do instead, they get excited and start experimenting . . .Thank you so kindly for your knowledge and time.

Speaking of finding your voice and experimentation, I was extremely fortunate. First I went to college, suffered through undergrad English, then studied Spanish and Castilian Spanish, graduated with my useless psych B.A., accidentally landed a job as a radio talk show producer, had to write scripts and interviews, then a newspaper commissioned me to turn a historical radio segment, which I did not produce, into a newspaper column, and from then on, because I am an avid historian, I began to research and write for local museums. Then I ended up writing for a motorcycle magazine. For a long time, my uncle was the best editor I had ever worked with, and he did not charge me a dime. Then he turned into an ogre as a whole, so I lost my editor.

At that point five years ago, I wanted to write, so I decided to learn to edit, but my writing was never judged, ever! I was able to create freely without any criticism. That is until I had to write to support myself when I became disabled. At that time, a publisher for a local ezine found my work on my website which I was not promoting at that time and hired me to write for him. I do let people know that I edit my work, I can help them edit, and I pimp myself out to ghostwrite just about anything anyone will pay me to write within my knowledge. But I am not an editor, and I cannot charge the going rates. I just continue to study the art of editing. My ezine receives 275,000 website visitors a year, and that is where these people are coming from that think I know a whole bunch about editing. I only know what I have taught myself, and I am my own worst critic. I am getting these publishing questions, and I do not know one whit about publishing except what I have read and that publishing and editing go hand in hand.
 
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Fallen

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I find it hard to explain that even though they are not passive, they still use the "to be" conjugations, and a writer would want to limit the usage of those constructions, but I cannot tell them why, and then add that they also may find those constructions effective in certain contexts.

There's passive voice, then there's also a passive state, where the character becomes an observer to the action, and that can be done through choices over 'be' and the likes of static verbs (e.g., He is an ass (state = static verb), he's being an ass (action = dynamic verb)).

War of the Worlds is brilliant for this, by having a narrator being an observer to the threat via static verbs, he's portraying that beautiful English arrogance of the time, and showing our false sense superiority when faced with an enemy, but then turning that safety on its head when the aliens do attack and kick some ass:

I realize with horror that my home was now within range of the Martians heat ray

Dickens does the same, with that famous line from A Christmas Carol:

Marly was dead, to begin with.

He takes a known state to readers: death, then like War of the Worlds, he turns what's known and safe -- on its head: to begin with.

It's that lovely play between what's known and unknown, between schema-reinforcing and schema-reinforcing, but using static verbs/relational clauses to do it.

So can you have too many kinds of one verb that floods and damages the text? Sure. Use a run of 'He was... she was...' and it will not only impact character (how they're seen to act (or not)), pacing (repetitive summary structures slowing pace), relationship development, (mostly states or summary: don't tell me he's in love, show me some lovin' in real time...).

I edit with a publisher, but I content edit too because my replies are tailored to how structural edits are built through a firm base of form and function, how micro bursts of word choice here and there potentially impact macro themes like character voice in negative ways because word choice is seen to go against their usual flair with words. I've never seen a script rejected for passive voice, though!
 
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KendallDavis

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Thank you, Fallen, that is great insight. I suppose script is written for the spoken word, LOL! But I had not given thought to the passive state. I do not think I knew that it existed or if I did, I forgot about it, and I do not know if I would recognize unless I was looking for it.
 

Roxxsmom

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Oh, goodness, me critique? I do not think I am worthy! More than likely, I will not post my work. I mainly write to get paid with no expectations of a byline. I do write semimonthly articles for a large ezine which is mostly historical vignettes. I am a only a glorified journalist and not an author.

You are as worthy as anyone else to offer a thoughtful opinion about someone else's writing. Some people are grammar gurus and can point out mistakes with the exact name of the rule it breaks, but that's not always the most helpful feedback (it can be useful, but fiction is often written with a more colloquial voice). But almost anyone who reads a lot can judge whether or not something is working for them. Even if it's just saying something like, "Hmmm, this part feels a bit forced, like it's too much of a coincidence" or, "This character seems like a jerk to me. Is that what you intend?" or "Some of the sentences read awkwardly to me, though I can't explain why" is useful if it's honest feedback. It may agree or disagree with what others say, but that's useful information too.