-
Basic Writing questions is not a crit forum. All crits belong in Share Your Work
How useful is the monomyth?
- Thread starter Daggilarr
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2012
- Messages
- 14,708
- Reaction score
- 24,668
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Website
- elizabethbonesteel.com
Apologies; I was referencing this
but I'll admit I didn't google. My response was more to this differentiation of Hero's Journey vs. Heroine's:
and the persistent presumptions about women's lives throughout history. (I will say I have some recent direct experience with the annoying erasure of women's accomplishments, so it's a bit of a hot button with me.)
Apologies to Mr. Campbell if I mischaracterized his work.
The Hero's Journey is one of those things where you can apply it to a great many works of fiction...but sometimes it takes creative interpretations to fit some of the steps.
Just for fun, I looked up the Hero's Journey and applied it to my current NaNoWriMo WIP. I found 12-stage versions on various sites, Christopher Vogler's adaptation of Joseph Campbell's monomyth, and found the original 17-stage monomyth by Joseph Campbell on Wikipedia.
While I couldn't think of how the 17-stage monomyth really applied in the later stages (in part because I couldn't grasp what in the world "The Meeting with the Goddess" meant or how it would apply in the context of my story), the 12-stage Vogler version did fit the plotline as I have it in mind. That is, with some creative interpretation of some of the stages, particularly "The Road Back".
So, to be honest, I don't think it's really worth thinking about. The odds are that I'll never think about the Hero's Journey in how it relates to my current WIP, and I certainly won't think about it when I'm coming up with future plots. It's probably best not to write via any sort of formula.
Just for fun, I looked up the Hero's Journey and applied it to my current NaNoWriMo WIP. I found 12-stage versions on various sites, Christopher Vogler's adaptation of Joseph Campbell's monomyth, and found the original 17-stage monomyth by Joseph Campbell on Wikipedia.
While I couldn't think of how the 17-stage monomyth really applied in the later stages (in part because I couldn't grasp what in the world "The Meeting with the Goddess" meant or how it would apply in the context of my story), the 12-stage Vogler version did fit the plotline as I have it in mind. That is, with some creative interpretation of some of the stages, particularly "The Road Back".
So, to be honest, I don't think it's really worth thinking about. The odds are that I'll never think about the Hero's Journey in how it relates to my current WIP, and I certainly won't think about it when I'm coming up with future plots. It's probably best not to write via any sort of formula.
Here is a short list of movie titles, some are old, some are new, some are classics. They are all about a Heroine going through a character change - as the main plot line or as an arc, which is what HJ is about at the end of the day.
Titanic
The Silence Of The Lambs
Sicario
Out Of Africa
Amelie
Agnes Of God
Juno
Terms Of Endearment
The Devil Wears Prada
Campbell's work was published in 1949. This was a long time ago. As stated above, the better reference is Vogler's The Writer's Journey ( link ). It's much cleaner in terms of explanations and a straight-to-the-point practical guide for novelists.
-cb
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2012
- Messages
- 14,708
- Reaction score
- 24,668
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Website
- elizabethbonesteel.com
I'm not entirely sure what your point is. There has always been representation of women in popular culture. My point is that it's often spoken of as if it doesn't exist, and it's often forgotten a few scant years after it's acclaimed.
I have seen first-hand how often female SF writers (as, ahem, a totally random for instance) are hailed as pioneers in the genre, never mind the women writing award-winning bestsellers within the previous twelve months (or twelve years, or forty years, or...). We're always here, and yet to a certain segment of the population reacts like goldfish: as soon as we're out of sight, we don't exist anymore.
Anyway, all this is OT. My only real point about the Hero's Journey as discussed in this thread is that it strikes me as a fairly typical mythic story arc that appears in a lot of genres.
It's a useful tool to consider but not to adhere to completely. I found that it brought up interesting points in the character arc.
However, we have a much more sophisticated audience/reader now. If things get too predictable they lose interest.
Hence the excitement of GOT, where the main characters got killed of early.
Read the hero's journey but create your own fantasy myth.
C J Thibeaux
However, we have a much more sophisticated audience/reader now. If things get too predictable they lose interest.
Hence the excitement of GOT, where the main characters got killed of early.
Read the hero's journey but create your own fantasy myth.
C J Thibeaux
Game of Thrones is a very typical fantasy in almost every respect.
Main characters in it don't die, except for Ned Stark in the first book. The main characters are Tyrion, Dany, and Jon Snow, who are as bullet proof as any fantasy cast (evidenced by the fact that Jon Snow bounces back after being killed).
GRRM is unusual in that he gives an inordinate amount of space to minor characters and background plot arcs. Killing is GRRM's method of ending an unsustainable arc or character; when he can't resolve them, he murders them.
Main characters in it don't die, except for Ned Stark in the first book. The main characters are Tyrion, Dany, and Jon Snow, who are as bullet proof as any fantasy cast (evidenced by the fact that Jon Snow bounces back after being killed).
GRRM is unusual in that he gives an inordinate amount of space to minor characters and background plot arcs. Killing is GRRM's method of ending an unsustainable arc or character; when he can't resolve them, he murders them.
So, I came to this as I decided to have a stab at a fantasy style write. This decision was prompted by the sheer amount of it I see on forums, so much so, in fact, it was beginning to irritate me.
Pen went to paper, (meaning fingers went to keys) and I started. Within the first few hundred words, my MC became a woman, not sure why, she just did. I blazed away for a few thousand words and offered my beginning up for a quick read by a few online pals. I had decided early on that I was going to hurl my MC into impossible situations and then find a way to write them back to safety.
Two days later I got some feedback. Why, demanded the women, did she need rescuing by a man? I blushed, my goddess had been trussed by bandits and as they were about to defile her when a knight in shining armour rode in and rescued her from the clutches of dishonour and death.
I had fallen head first into a cliché of monumental proportions. I knew at the outset that such a write was, in itself, a cliché and so to some extent had turned off my cliché scanner.
I decided fantasy was not for me and my finger quivered over the delete key for several seconds before I decided to just shelve it, maybe something would occur to me.
It was then that I remembered the heroes journey, the monomyth so I poked around a little. Was it useful to me? Yes, a bit. I saw elements that I could use, elements that could form some of the backstory for my MC.
I did find a rather nasty Heroines journey version where the first element the Heroine must do is abandon her femininity, become man-like.
I decided I wanted to write this story with a subtext of inequality v equality. The background is how the empire of men folded in on itself and a new order is blooming. However, my Heroine must retrieve some vital tomes hidden far in the north for humankind to fully realise its integrated potential.
At some point when I have completed my quest, climbed the mountain of posts and retrieved the medallion of fiftyness, when my words can ring out in the hall of the mountain water-cooler... I may post a bit of it for your consideration.
Pen went to paper, (meaning fingers went to keys) and I started. Within the first few hundred words, my MC became a woman, not sure why, she just did. I blazed away for a few thousand words and offered my beginning up for a quick read by a few online pals. I had decided early on that I was going to hurl my MC into impossible situations and then find a way to write them back to safety.
Two days later I got some feedback. Why, demanded the women, did she need rescuing by a man? I blushed, my goddess had been trussed by bandits and as they were about to defile her when a knight in shining armour rode in and rescued her from the clutches of dishonour and death.
I had fallen head first into a cliché of monumental proportions. I knew at the outset that such a write was, in itself, a cliché and so to some extent had turned off my cliché scanner.
I decided fantasy was not for me and my finger quivered over the delete key for several seconds before I decided to just shelve it, maybe something would occur to me.
It was then that I remembered the heroes journey, the monomyth so I poked around a little. Was it useful to me? Yes, a bit. I saw elements that I could use, elements that could form some of the backstory for my MC.
I did find a rather nasty Heroines journey version where the first element the Heroine must do is abandon her femininity, become man-like.
I decided I wanted to write this story with a subtext of inequality v equality. The background is how the empire of men folded in on itself and a new order is blooming. However, my Heroine must retrieve some vital tomes hidden far in the north for humankind to fully realise its integrated potential.
At some point when I have completed my quest, climbed the mountain of posts and retrieved the medallion of fiftyness, when my words can ring out in the hall of the mountain water-cooler... I may post a bit of it for your consideration.
Last edited:
Imagine you live on a planet where the population is 50% human, 50% alien. The aliens in question are, on average, a foot taller than the humans, and probably 30-40 lbs heavier. Also stronger, and more aggressive. Most crimes on the planet are perpetuated by said aliens, disproportionately often against the humans. The aliens see nothing wrong with this set up, on the whole, and are genuinely puzzled by humans who complain; some feel anxious for the future of their alien culture when humans suggest implementing changes.
Would you feel safe on that planet, as a human?_?
Here's some subtext for male/female inequality. Women share a world with a set of creatures who are like and unlike us; creatures who are, for the most part, bigger and stronger, existing in a system set up to favour them, and to disadvantage us. The reasons for this are cultural, biological, historical, and probably a few other things as well.
Just something to bear in mind for your new order.
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2012
- Messages
- 14,708
- Reaction score
- 24,668
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Website
- elizabethbonesteel.com
This is part of where I get hung up in all of these sorts of conversations. (Not intending to be critical of you, Daggilarr, but of your Heroine's Journey source.) "Femininity" and "man-like" are terms without useful definitions. They are highly culturally- and class-dependent, and as far as individual characters are concerned, they're basically meaningless.
For worldbuilding, as Harlequin illustrates well, it's useful to understand if sex and gender (and, as my kid is fond of reminding me, there are more than two) imply class and power in your universe. I think one of the most powerful aspects of fantasy (despite the prevalence of narratives based on medieval European structures) is the ability to build pretty much whatever you want here.
Anyway, Daggilarr, it sounds like you're asking the right questions and are off to a good start.
Last edited:
My world is our world far in the future. As I say, the empire of men has failed (as it will), not only failed but bought about the collapse of society (as it may). My heroine comes from a land (probably old Europe) where men and women are equal, where there is no concept of wealth,money, class or property. Her quest will take her to a far off land (probably the Americas) where the there is a fuedal, male dominated society ( much as it is now but without the tech really) She has considerable skills, some martial, but has another skill which I won't reveal here. Katna, (working name) has just met someone who will become her companion.
Last edited:
There are two main story lines in Hero's Journey. The Desire, which is the physical journey, and the Need, which is the change the Heroine must undergo psychologically through a series of encounters with Opponents. It could be something within herself - ex: lack of confidence - or something with others - ex:arrogance. What you need to avoid in crafting these encounters is turning the succession into a series of Plot Coupons ( link ).
Do you need to follow every step in Campbell's list or even Vogler's list? No. Just remember that many of those steps are optional. The succession of encounters that trigger a small character change with a final major encounter that triggers the ultimate self-realization are the core parts. Call To Adventure? All stories have some inflection point that propels the Heroine into the adventure; it's sort of given. Refusal Of The Call? This could be reduced to a one-liner like "Gosh. That sounds dangerous". Meeting The Mentor? If you want one. The Road Back? Can do without.
Below is a video from John Truby. He explains it better that any other story guru out there. His Myth genre is like any other genre, like Love, Mystery, or Thriller, so it's not presented like the panacea structure to all stories out there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4u4kAMTZC8
Hope this helps.
-cb
Do you need to follow every step in Campbell's list or even Vogler's list? No. Just remember that many of those steps are optional. The succession of encounters that trigger a small character change with a final major encounter that triggers the ultimate self-realization are the core parts. Call To Adventure? All stories have some inflection point that propels the Heroine into the adventure; it's sort of given. Refusal Of The Call? This could be reduced to a one-liner like "Gosh. That sounds dangerous". Meeting The Mentor? If you want one. The Road Back? Can do without.
Below is a video from John Truby. He explains it better that any other story guru out there. His Myth genre is like any other genre, like Love, Mystery, or Thriller, so it's not presented like the panacea structure to all stories out there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4u4kAMTZC8
Hope this helps.
-cb
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 23,124
- Reaction score
- 10,887
- Location
- Where faults collide
- Website
- doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
It's more about what he didn't say (about women), though I found something a while back and cited it in another thread about the hero's journey.
Aside from his narratives always referring to the hero as "he" and a string of almost exclusively male examples, there's that whole thing about the hero needing to encounter the "temptress" and coming to master life as embodied by a woman or goddess, often via sex and rescuing the princess. This part is a bit hard for a heterosexual woman, at least. I suppose you can genderflip everything, but given the way male and female roles have been regarded for much of history, that doesn't always work.
I've found a paper on the limitations of the hero's journey with regards to female protagonists. The problem is, it's an adobe file that pops up on the web via google, but I don't know how to link it, as it's not a web site with a URL. I can't even figure out how to bookmark it, though I guess it might be downloadable.
My issues with Campbell are mainly that he cherrypicked his examples and his hypothesis is so broad that it's essentially non falisifiable. Interesting pop psychology but not so great from a scholarly viewpoint. And it's absolutely stultifying if agents, editors and producers reject narratives that don't follow the hero's journey or omit elements of it.
This article talks about it from the perspective of the perils of using it as a "paint by numbers" approach to storytelling.
http://dappledthings.org/8796/is-the-monomyth-a-myth/
I hope no one is assuming I am embarking on a paint by numbers approach just because I have referenced the heroes journey structure.
If, as a writer, I am unable to transcend the limits of a structured approach or indeed put together a tale without a template,I might as well just forget the whole thing.
If, as a writer, I am unable to transcend the limits of a structured approach or indeed put together a tale without a template,I might as well just forget the whole thing.
This one? The Problem of Woman as Hero in the Work of Joseph Campbell
https://canvas.brown.edu/courses/1023508/files/57078095/download
Here's the final conclusion of this paper:
Writers can and do break the rules.
-cb
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2012
- Messages
- 14,708
- Reaction score
- 24,668
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Website
- elizabethbonesteel.com
FWIW, I don't assume you or anyone else on the boards is writing paint by numbers, and nothing you've said here would make me think otherwise. Don't mistake enthusiastic discussion of the subject as anyone remarking on your work specifically. (Especially me. I do go on.
)FWIW, I don't assume you or anyone else on the boards is writing paint by numbers, and nothing you've said here would make me think otherwise. Don't mistake enthusiastic discussion of the subject as anyone remarking on your work specifically. (Especially me. I do go on.
Thanks.
Not at all, I think you've just found a road map that will take you where you want to go, however it would be good to read the link shared by edutton before following that particular map.
All of this is new to me. Thanks for all the links
I don't think it's useful particularly, although it does give you some insight into how certain tropes are "hardwired" and therefore don't really count as clichés. They're more the way the reader's mind tend to like stories to go. It's also a reminder why certain things you'll dream up don't come across as original as you might have thought.
But it's sort of like saying that if you took all the beautiful women and merged their photos, you'd end up with the ideal woman. Perhaps, but that's boring. You want people and stories to be individual.
But it's sort of like saying that if you took all the beautiful women and merged their photos, you'd end up with the ideal woman. Perhaps, but that's boring. You want people and stories to be individual.
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 23,124
- Reaction score
- 10,887
- Location
- Where faults collide
- Website
- doggedlywriting.blogspot.com