Square one

satyesu · Oct 28, 2017

I've been posting here an awful lot, but after reading about what makes a viable idea, I'm convinced my current idea just isn't ready. I have another I'm interested in, but I want to start "right" this time. I've seen many, many "guides" and "formulas" to/for writing novels. Do any work? Which have you found to be best? Thank you!

cbenoi1 · Oct 28, 2017

There is no such thing as a secret recipe for writing novels. Maybe post your premise in the Sandbox, get feedback & more ideas?

-cb

Dave.C.Robinson · Oct 28, 2017

What works for me is to get started; whether writing or outlining. I'd also wonder if it might be that you're not ready for the idea yet rather than the idea not being ready. If you're an outliner, start work on an outline and ask yourself lots of questions. If you're a pantser, start writing.

The trick is to find what works for you.

The only formula I've found to work is BIC-FOK: Butt in Chair - Fingers on Keyboard.

blacbird · Oct 28, 2017

In a related forum, you just posted a thread asking about scenes. So write a scene; go from there. Continuing to ponder about planning and starting is just a way to procrastinate.

Procrastinate later. Write now.

caw

BethS · Oct 29, 2017

satyesu said:
I've seen many, many "guides" and "formulas" to/for writing novels. Do any work? Which have you found to be best? Thank you!

Judging by some of your posts, it seems to me your main issue might be that you struggle with what goes into a story and how to put one together. Structure, IOW. Which means the advice to simply sit down and write, while being great advice in other circumstances, could be premature in this case.

There are likely any number of books out there on the subject of story structure. I don't actually have any on my shelf, except maybe The Writer's Journey by Christopher Vogler. You might find it useful because of the way it discusses character and story archetypes, and the myriad ways they can be used, combined, and/or inverted to tell a compelling story. There is hardly a novel or movie out there (at least in the western hemisphere) that doesn't follow some form, however changed and disguised, of the hero's journey.

I'd suggest you do a search on Amazon for books on story structure and see what turns up. Maybe someone here can suggest one or two.

Bottom line, in order to tell a story, a writer has to understand what makes a story, and different writers come by that knowledge in different ways. Nothing wrong with educating yourself on it.

stiiiiiv · Oct 29, 2017

When I'm writing a story, for which I already have a satisfactory premise and a main character, I ask myself a simple question. What is the worst thing that can realistically happen to the main character now, that also will advance the story toward its climactic point of greatest tension? Then I put on my sadistic gloves and start typing, making sure I cause pain, mental and/or physical. It's the struggle that makes a story interesting, so don't fall in love with your characters so much you no longer wish to cause them pain.

MythMonger · Oct 29, 2017

A viable idea is one that the writer can bring to fruition. It's going to be different for each person, as everybody brings their own skills and experiences to the table.

Experienced writers have said where they can tell if their idea is big enough for a novel or whether it's more suited for a short story or the like. You can't expect to have this knowledge without gaining the experience for yourself, first. Read about how to write if that's how you learn, or start writing from the idea if that's what would work best for you.

Brightdreamer · Oct 29, 2017

BethS said:
Judging by some of your posts, it seems to me your main issue might be that you struggle with what goes into a story and how to put one together. Structure, IOW. Which means the advice to simply sit down and write, while being great advice in other circumstances, could be premature in this case.

There are likely any number of books out there on the subject of story structure. I don't actually have any on my shelf, except maybe The Writer's Journey by Christopher Vogler. You might find it useful because of the way it discusses character and story archetypes, and the myriad ways they can be used, combined, and/or inverted to tell a compelling story. There is hardly a novel or movie out there (at least in the western hemisphere) that doesn't follow some form, however changed and disguised, of the hero's journey.

I'd suggest you do a search on Amazon for books on story structure and see what turns up. Maybe someone here can suggest one or two.

Bottom line, in order to tell a story, a writer has to understand what makes a story, and different writers come by that knowledge in different ways. Nothing wrong with educating yourself on it.

+1 to this.

In addition, while reading about structure, you're going to want to read books. Read books similar to the kind you want to write, and maybe try a few others outside your comfort zone. Reread a few favorites. See if you can identify the structure points you're reading about in the field.

Curlz · Oct 29, 2017

Write something and don't worry about stuff while you write it. Get a story out. Beginning, middle and end. Don't worry if it's great or boring, or full of mistakes. Only after you finish the story, go back and start looking at what you did wrong. All the "formulas" and "methods" worked for the people who invented them, that doesn't mean they will work for everybody. Try one, then try another. I like the snowflake method but I really enjoy nanowrimo where one just types away mindlessly for a month and then surprises oneself with the result

Calder · Oct 29, 2017

The first thing is, simply, to write. Don't forget a first draft is just that - a first attempt, but it's something which you can change, revise, improve and hone. It's difficult to calculate, but I firmly believe I put more time and effort into revising and editing than writing a first draft.

The second thing is to remember the words of Doris Lessing, one of the greatest novelists of the 20th century, who said “There are no laws for the novel. There never have been, nor can there ever be.” or W. Somerset Maugham's view that "there are three rules for writing a novel. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."

Toothpick · Oct 30, 2017

Difficult to tell just like this. The way I started was by thinking of it awfully lot. I'm writing something which I would love to read somewhere, or even watch. I figured I'm a little bit sick of predictable plots and characters so I wanted it to be something unpredictable. And from there onwards it was all about making it complex and adding depth to the world and characters..but of course making sure everything is clear. I guess what I'm trying to say is what everyone else is trying to say, and that is sit down, read a lot, focus, think about your story and everything you'd like to have in it and finally write. "I've seen many, many "guides" and "formulas" to/for writing novels. Do any work?" I've seen none, and here I am at 40 k words of my first novel. So I guess the "read, focus, think about everything and write" approach does work after all no matter how simple it may sound.

mccardey · Oct 30, 2017

My ideas never start off by being ready. They start off by writing and then things happen.

ETA: Mind you, a lot of my ideas are pretty crap...

StoryofWoe · Oct 30, 2017

BethS said:
Judging by some of your posts, it seems to me your main issue might be that you struggle with what goes into a story and how to put one together. Structure, IOW. Which means the advice to simply sit down and write, while being great advice in other circumstances, could be premature in this case.

There are likely any number of books out there on the subject of story structure. I don't actually have any on my shelf, except maybe The Writer's Journey by Christopher Vogler. You might find it useful because of the way it discusses character and story archetypes, and the myriad ways they can be used, combined, and/or inverted to tell a compelling story. There is hardly a novel or movie out there (at least in the western hemisphere) that doesn't follow some form, however changed and disguised, of the hero's journey.

I'd suggest you do a search on Amazon for books on story structure and see what turns up. Maybe someone here can suggest one or two.

Bottom line, in order to tell a story, a writer has to understand what makes a story, and different writers come by that knowledge in different ways. Nothing wrong with educating yourself on it.

+1 This.

If you're in the market for books on story structure, I can recommend The Art and Craft of Story and The Art and Craft of Fiction by Victoria Mixon, Wonderbook by Jeff Vandermeer (particularly good if you write spec fic), and Structuring Your Novel by K.M. Weiland. FWIW, I also have The Anatomy of Story by John Truby and Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schmidt, Ph.D. on my TBR pile.

benbenberi · Oct 30, 2017

Somebody recently gave me a copy of My Story Can Beat Up Your Story, by Jeffrey Alan Schechter. It's aimed specifically at screenwriters, but most of the advice about structure is applicable to novelists too.

ancon · Oct 30, 2017

could help to fire up the engine, roll down the windows, and not worry about starting off 'right' but just start off, and go the 'wrong' way with no guide or formula which may lead to a pretty engaging trip to grab a reader by the neck to go along with you and at some mile marker on some highway or back road you will need more gas. but you may not, of course. and you may not want to spend five bucks at the gas station buying a map unless you're really lost and you can't steal it, etc. spend the two bucks on donuts or another gallon of gas to get the tires back grabbing the road. tires grabbing the road. you just keep driving. you may not even know where you're going but the reader sort of does. you got a gun with two bullets left in it, a dead body sitting up next to you, and a suitcase of money in your car telling you to drive. drive. you look at your gas gauge. you only got one more gallon of gas.

stuff like that...just start writing. if the gas light shows it is going dry, take it to almost dry and then run out of it. just a couple thoughts. good luck!

DanaeMcB · Nov 2, 2017

It's clear there are two camps of thought here--the camp of "just write and see what happens" and the camp of "here's ways to figure out where you're going before you go." I'm of the second camp. I like outlines because then I know there's at least one viable path for getting from beginning to middle to end. I don't like the idea of writing for days only to realize my initial idea won't support a whole story.

A book I've found helpful, which I don't think others have mentioned, is Larry Brooks' "Story Engineering." It's largely about story structure, breaking a novel down into four sections that are divided by three significant plot points. He also has a blog that gives a lot of this information, so you can get a feel for it before you invest in the book. My only problem with his book is that it is not organized really well. Ironic, that a book on organizing books is itself not well-organized. But there's a big difference between fiction and non-fiction. I think he understands fiction structure.

satyesu · Nov 2, 2017

Ugh. Too many book recommendations. @_@ Sorry, I probably won't pick it up. Thanks, though. I'll check out the blog.

Fruitbat · Nov 2, 2017

Since you want something quick, maybe try googling "story boards," "7 plot point structure," and/or "the snowflake method." Good luck!

cbenoi1 · Nov 2, 2017

Fruitbat said:
Since you want something quick,

Something even quicker: 3-act structure. Beginning. Middle. Ending. Done.

-cb

Square one

satyesu

cbenoi1

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command

blacbird

BethS

stiiiiiv

Awww nuts!!!

MythMonger

Willing to Learn

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

Curlz

cutsie-pie

Calder

Toothpick

mccardey

StoryofWoe

Sick and pale with grief.

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW

ancon

DanaeMcB

Curious turtle

satyesu

Fruitbat

.

cbenoi1