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Thread: DNC purges progressives

  1. #51
    ever seeking GeorgeK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celia Cyanide View Post
    That is absolutely not true to the people who are actually affected by these social issues.
    Go by what they've done, not by what they said

    Also pretty soon everyone but the 1% will be affected even someone with a broken arm. When the people who voted for the nonsense going on have their own health issues, they will see
    Last edited by GeorgeK; 10-27-2017 at 10:36 PM.

  2. #52
    practical experience, FTW Twick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    There is no such thing as Left, Right or Center anymore. Those are meaningless terms and harken to the blind loyalty to a party from the 50's and sixties and what both the DNC and GOP are trying to bring back. The internet has allowed people to do their own research and the largest demographic now is someone who is Environmentally Liberal, Socially Moderate, and Fiscally Conservative.
    I really don't believe Bernie Sanders can be called "fiscally conservative." He's pretty big on social spending, isn't he?

    He's "socially moderate" in that he's willing to throw away something women have sought for decades (reproductive rights) in order to attract anti-abortion voters, and appears to disparage "identity politics" including rights for LGBTQ citizens.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    There is no such thing as Left, Right or Center anymore. Those are meaningless terms and harken to the blind loyalty to a party from the 50's and sixties and what both the DNC and GOP are trying to bring back. The internet has allowed people to do their own research and the largest demographic now is someone who is Environmentally Liberal, Socially Moderate, and Fiscally Conservative. Neither the DNC or GOP represents that demographic. That's why Bernie has the support that he does, but the DNC and GOP rules prevented his supporters from having a vote, mostly in the primaries, but the primaries decide it. Few realize that write in votes are not counted at all unless a person is a registered independent candidate.

    As to Trump's dismantling of everything, if you notice it's pretty much all by Executive Orders which mean the next Pres can nix it all on day one. That's really the best thing that Obama did when he could was try to let things go through the Supreme Court because an EO can not legally reverse that
    Bernie lost the primaries by MILLIONS OF VOTES.

    Exactly how were his supporters prevented from having a vote? He lost, fair and square and more than decidedly. She won by a landslide and that's even with him sticking around like an ass.

    He lost and refused to concede, because he is, at heart, about Bernie, not issues, or getting anything done, and look what we have.

    I don't understand what you mean by the bolded at all, can you explain that further please?

  4. #54
    ever seeking GeorgeK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celia Cyanide View Post
    That Bernie is not really supporting those things, if he is campaigning for pro-life candidates.
    I don't know anything about that. There are a lot of lies out there. So check your sources, however, if it is reliable information look at the district or state or whatever region is involved. There are some places where that is the local litmus test either for or against on that one single issue. If they don't get elected they can't work on any of the other things. Also Bernie is in the position to know things about candidates that we aren't and they may be things that makes him not want to support them but doesn't want to air the laundry in public.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celia Cyanide View Post



    They have their say when they decide who to vote for.
    That's what I said although with different words
    Quote Originally Posted by Celia Cyanide View Post



    No, it doesn't really work like that. People can support a candidate for any reason they want to. It could be because they're ignorant and don't know what that person represents, or just because they like that person for whatever reason. They're not lying about being Bernie supporters. They just don't know what he stands for.
    That's certainly a possibility but far from the only one. I've known people to vote for a president based on hair. I think it's an incredibly stupid way to do things, but that is their right. It's also the minority of people that I've known. A bigger concern is blind party loyalty which I've seen to be pretty common. Often those are people who as you mentioned don't know what the candidate stands for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celia Cyanide View Post



    What? Why? Local politics is not the only place where progressives exist. Bernie is "local" to somewhere, but he has national attention, when no other progressive does.
    I never said it was the only place. I said, as you said that the problem is with the media and not enough progressives actually getting attention

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twick View Post
    I really don't believe Bernie Sanders can be called "fiscally conservative." He's pretty big on social spending, isn't he?
    His plans to pay for them are sound as opposed to other politicians who never present a plan, just a dogma
    Quote Originally Posted by Twick View Post

    He's "socially moderate" in that he's willing to throw away something women have sought for decades (reproductive rights) in order to attract anti-abortion voters, and appears to disparage "identity politics" including rights for LGBTQ citizens.
    I have personally heard him speak on the topic so I believe you have been listening to trolls or sources that chop things up to deliberately take things out of context, which again are lies

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twick View Post
    To be fair, I would hesitate to argue that one needs a "liberal arts education" to be able to think clearly and rationally about important topics. Some of the most eloquent, intelligent, thoughtful people I know didn't go to college at all. On the other hand, some of the dullest, most unclear thinkers were liberal arts majors.

    If there's a way to teach people to think, I don't believe it lies inherently in being enrolled in "English 203 - Socialist Perspectives in Literature."
    True. And I've never heard of a college where such a class is required for graduation, even liberal arts schools. There are other ways to become educated and open minded. But a liberal arts education remains an excellent way to do so, and making it financially out of reach for the "masses," while the children of the rich can still go to these schools and benefit from everything (not just training in a particular profession) college has to offer. The gap between the haves and the have nots continues to widen.

    As someone who teaches at a community college, it saddens me to see how stressed most of our students are these days, and how little time or inclination most of them have to smell the educational and cultural flowers while they are in college. I'm not talking "socialist perspectives in literature" classes. I'm talking about their attitude over elective courses in the sciences (their amazement and dismay when they find out I mean the 2-3 hours of study outside for each hour in class thing), or their general inability to write. I'm talking about kids who have no idea about how our government works or why the supreme court can strike down a law they voted yes on. I'm talking about young adults who have never looked through a microscope or visited a museum, or attended a play or concert before they had to do so for a class in college.

    They sure as hell aren't getting this cultural background from their K-12. K-12 is too busy with teaching to tests these days. If they don't get this in college, many of them won't get it at all. However, even in college, their emphasis (and a lot of this is coming from the top too, with more of a business model taking over) is on getting through as fast as they can while discouraging exploration.

    I'm also talking about the way community colleges in our state have been been limiting access of the community in various ways, whether it's via cutting low-cost physical education classes that can be taken over and over to discouraging people who aren't working towards a degree, certificate or transfer from taking classes at the college at all, to restricting after-hours parking for members of the community who wish to attend concerts, talks, planetarium showings, art exhibits and what have you.

    This is an aside, but maybe it isn't. I'd like to see higher education at four year schools as affordable as it once was, whether the person is majoring in STEM or business, or whether they are majoring in art, history or English lit. I also want to see colleges accessible to the public who want to brush up skills or learn something new. Affordable education is an investment in our future--not just because college is where people learn to be good little worker bees, but because it's where many people step outside of their family and communities of origin for the first time and it's where many people are exposed to uncomfortable ideas for the first time. It's supposed to be where many can find their passion or discover things they never knew about the world.

    There's a reason educated people tend to be more liberal.

    This, in my opinion, is why some conservatives want to make it harder for most people to obtain an affordable education, or at least they want to shackle higher education in the same way they've done with K-12.

    I also think things like universal health care are important, because it means people won't be shackled to specific jobs, communities, even marriages out of fear of losing their insurance. It means people will be freer to start their own businesses or work for smaller companies. It means people won't be bankrupted, or be forced to mortgage their homes to the teeth (if they're lucky enough to own a home) when catastrophic illness strikes. And it would likely be good for smaller businesses in particular, since they won't have to struggle with insuring their workers.

    I think it could be good for the economy as well as for individual people.

    However, in our current political climate, you can guarantee that universal health care will encourage those who want to control and inhibit women's sexuality and economic equality will seize on the issue of contraception in particular as something that shouldn't be covered. Never mind that it would be more cost effective to cover it. Never mind that there are plenty of other services that many won't use and to which some have moral objections. Conservatives always focus on contraception (and abortion, which will no longer be financially accessible to any but rich women, since it surely won't be covered in a national health care plan either).

    This is, I'm guessing, why Bernie's willing to throw women's health under the bus. I get that he probably feels between a rock and a hard place, and to get the working class on board with single payer he has to toss that bone.

    The problem is, it's a HUGE bone, and without it, the whole animal will collapse, imo.

    America probably won't be ready for single payer until people A. Stop being so concerned with how other people spend taxpayer dollars or use taxpayer-subsidized services. Accept that we all do things that not everyone approves of and trying to control that leads to madness.

    B. Fully internalize the concept that women are human and deserve the same privacy and physical autonomy as men.

    I'm really sick of seeing people in power, even so-called progressives, thinking that the rights of half the human race are negotiable.
    Last edited by Roxxsmom; 10-27-2017 at 11:03 PM.
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  7. #57
    practical experience, FTW cornflake's Avatar
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    Also, as to the Internet allowing people to "do their own research," see above Roxx's post. I know teens, who go to very good schools, who have said stuff about Hillary losing because she "killed those people in Benghazi," who have told me that Newtown was a hoax, and I should watch the youtube, who tell me Donald Trump is a great businessman and people lie about him, who, as above, do not at all understand the basics of government (like have said stuff about the Supreme Court, the making and passing of laws, crime, etc., that make clear they have zero understanding of very basic things), who have repeated other nonsense that spread on right-wing media, etc.

    These are people who also think of 'research,' as typing something into Google and looking at the first sentence in the paragraph of the first result they see on the results page, without even considering what that link leads to, reading the entire thing, checking anything, etc., who will use Wiki for anything they need 'more' information on, even when told repeatedly that Wikipedia is utterly unreliable. Hey, it pops right up on Google. They don't even understand that that's not research. It's depressing.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    I don't know anything about that. There are a lot of lies out there. So check your sources, however, if it is reliable information look at the district or state or whatever region is involved.
    http://www.npr.org/2017/04/20/524962...ights-democrat

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-mello/523770/

    Is npr ir the Atlantic a good enough source?

    While I supported Clinton in the primary, I still liked a lot about Sanders up until this happened.

    An anti-choice democrat (as in one who wants to make abortion difficult to obtain or illegal) is no progressive in my book. And it's dangerous, even if he is only running for mayor and will (presumably) have no real power to deny women choice as such (I suppose he could back local ordinances that make it hard for women, clinics or practitioners). If the goal is grass-roots activism that will launch the careers of a new generation of Democrats, this is problematic.

    I get that we have to compromise on issues sometimes, and that no candidate is going to encompass everything we want, but when someone wants to endanger the autonomy and health of women? I have no words for how much this disgusts me. Even as a symbolic gesture, this is damaging.

    Quote Originally Posted by cornflake View Post
    These are people who also think of 'research,' as typing something into Google and looking at the first sentence in the paragraph of the first result they see on the results page, without even considering what that link leads to, reading the entire thing, checking anything, etc., who will use Wiki for anything they need 'more' information on, even when told repeatedly that Wikipedia is utterly unreliable. Hey, it pops right up on Google. They don't even understand that that's not research. It's depressing.
    This is very true. It's also problematic that many people obtain their news from only one source. Even if the source is good, reliable and vetted, it's good to cross check. Few do this nowadays.
    Last edited by Roxxsmom; 10-27-2017 at 11:32 PM.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    I think you've been listening to trolls telling deliberate lies rather than actual Bernie supporters. His top three issues are Healthcare (ranging from access to affordability including cost of medications), Environment (pollution to renewable energy) and Education (making it accessible and affordable for those who can actually do it.) Do you not consider those social issues?
    Sure. Those are social issues. But they're not my top three issues and everything I've heard and read and seen from Bernie and his supporters seems to be awfully condescending or outwardly indifferent to anyone who suggests, "Well, this is kinda important to me too."

    Bernie Sanders has a Black problem in general and a problem with Black women specifically and he has done nothing to address it.

    For all of Sanders’ talk of a “political revolution” and economic inequality, the candidate never seemed to understand that it’s all but impossible to make it out of the Democratic primary without winning over black women—especially those over 35 years old. Perhaps he didn’t have staffers telling him that 70 percent of black women voted in 2012, beating out any other voting demographic; some voter turnout experts argue that black people overall outvoted white men and women in 2008. Keep in mind that black voter turnout has been increasing since at least 1996, with black women leading that charge.

    Ask Barack Obama. Black women win presidencies.

    But, for some reason, the Democratic Party, Sanders and his supporters seem more interested in converting racist Donald Trump supporters while dismissing the electoral power of black female voters who’ve never wavered in their support of a party that consistently treats them like side pieces. Sanders told CBS News in November that he comes from the white working class and that he was “deeply humiliated” that the Democratic Party (you know, the party he refuses to join) lost its support to Trump.

    If Sanders is supposed to be the Democratic front-runner, why is he so invested in earning votes from racist white folks who despise minorities, the most loyal voters in the Democratic Party?

    No matter how much his backers forced Hillary Clinton’s support of the 1994 crime bill down our throats, he never could steal enough black votes from her. She went on to win the primary with more than 75 percent of their support, compared with just 23 percent going to Sanders. My own reporting found that some of Sanders’ senior black staffers felt that the campaign—or “the white boys,” as some of the black staffers referred to top campaign staffers—did not take Super Tuesday seriously and were convinced that fighting for black Southern voters was pretty much a lost cause.

    And it showed. Sanders was crushed Super Tuesday, with Clinton winning black female voters over with more than 85 percent of the vote in most states. Sanders and his supporters assumed that black voters would be easily drawn to his economic-justice policies. On paper, they were pretty impressive and should have had black women on the fence. Though, when challenged on how his policies would specifically help black people in prime-time moments, he faltered. Badly.
    I am married to a Black woman and we have a Black daughter and if the Bernie Bunch thinks they are going to simply come running into his arms in 2020, they are smoking something. I don't need St. Bernie the Righteous to tell me what my priorities should be and what should matter most. I can do that for myself with no help from Sanders and his crew telling me what the real issues are.

    Good luck to Sanders if he wants to try and figure out how to bring back Whites who voted for Obama but defected to Trump. It's going to be a Herculean lift and probably not particularly fruitful, but who am I to tell another man how to waste his time? There's a lot wrong with the Democrats--they're corporate, they're cautious, they're cowardly. There isn't a lot of courage or innovative thinking in the Democratic Party.

    However, I do not appreciate someone who isn't even a damn Democrat demanding a party he doesn't belong to bend and shape and twist itself into something more to his liking. If Sanders wants to lead the Democrats he should be a Democrat. He's not and lied when he said he would become one.

    Sanders confirmed to a reporter in November 2015 that he would run as a Democrat in future elections, after the subject was broached.

    "In future elections, potential future elections, will you also run as a Democrat?" the reporter asked Sanders as he campaigned in New Hampshire.

    "Yes," Sanders replied.
    LIE.

    Imagine that. A politician who goes back on his word? Hardly squares with the saintly Sanders image, does it?

    For Bernie's sake and all his wannabee revolutionaries hanging on his every raspy word, you may want to jack the Democrats and use it as a vehicle for your Brave New World where everybody gets free healthcare and as much ice cream as their bellies can keep down, but it's not happening when the most loyal and reliable part of the base is treated like a fucking afterthought.

    Sanders does not deserve the Black vote. He's got to earn it and thus far, he has not.

    The Black vote is not the exclusive property of the Democrats to have and hold forever and to pass it on to Sanders. Which doesn't mean the alternative is to go to the Republicans. It'll just stay home.


    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    That's not how it happened. They were invited in and promised a fair shake because the DNC does need more voters but what they wanted was blind loyalists to pray to the DNC god. They want party before country, before planet They didn't care if the blood was old or new. They did not want new ideas. They did not want a shake up of their aristocracy. They liked things just the way they were because they, just like the leaders of the GOP get their campaign funds from the same sources. They are beholden to the same lobbies. They do not pass any meaningful reforms because they like it just the way it is. They want to, "Stay the course." The only difference between the DNC leaders and the GOP leaders is the DNC use language that is a little more politically correct, but it's just lip service.

    What they promised they did not deliver and my hope is that the centrists will form a new party, one that cares about the planet and the country and the people.
    Nice speech. Smacks of a little "we wuz robbed" sour grapes though.

    If you truly think the only difference between Democratic/DNC leaders and Republican/GOP leaders is politically correct language, I heartily encourage you to form your perfect and shiny new party and have fun with it.

    Bring party hats and lots of confetti.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by cornflake View Post
    Bernie lost the primaries by MILLIONS OF VOTES.

    Exactly how were his supporters prevented from having a vote? He lost, fair and square and more than decidedly. She won by a landslide and that's even with him sticking around like an ass.
    Well, according to a guy who was sitting near me in a B&N cafe recently, his supporters in New York were prevented from having a vote because the registration deadline passed before he decided to run. So they couldn't vote for him in the primary because he hadn't announced yet, so how could they know they might want to cast a vote?

    (This is why you register to vote as soon as you're able to. Nobody's forcing you to go actually go to the polls, but at least you'll be able to exercise your right to vote if you choose to do so. If you haven't bothered registering to vote, then don't complain to me that you're being oppressed by the fact that rules actually apply to you; the only one who's disenfranchised you is you.)

    He then went on to proudly proclaim that he voted for Jill Stein, because he'll never vote for a Clinton: they murdered Vince Foster, after all. I did not stay long at the cafe that day.

    I've had a number of conversations with Bernie supporters who cling to the "he wouldn't have lost to Trump" line. You mean, the guy who couldn't even carry a majority of primary voters for the party whose banner he was running under -- you think that guy would have won the general election? No.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlantic12 View Post
    Hi Liv,
    For me progressive and liberal are interchangeable.
    Thank you for answering. And that's good to know. You earlier said, "Since progressives are often the only ones willing to actually talk about this without giving a damn about being labeled socialists or whatever, it's a bad sign if they're being pushed out or purged. "

    So that meant liberals, though I don't see us being purged.

    I define it as a deep concern for workers and civil rights. At its best, a progressive agenda recognizes how interconnected these issues are. Fighting economic inequalities and injustices for everyone regardless of gender, race etc can have a huge positive effect on civil rights issues. A very old example-- back in the 20s when Ford Motor Co started paying line workers the same wages regardless of race, that was one of the big foundations for an emerging black middle class.
    Just riffing here, but one reason of many that I supported Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders in the primary is that he defaulted to "economic inequality" virtually every time the issue of race was raised. It's one piece of a large puzzle, and I don't believe it's the largest piece. That's a reason (not the only one), imo, Sanders did so poorly with black voters.

    On women's voting patterns, I'm pretty sure I read it on Nate Silver's Fivethirtyeight.com. I loved their election coverage and the stastical look at what was happening.
    I tried to find what you were talking about but couldn't. I did a search on FivethirtyEight. If you could come up with it, I'd appreciate it. It's something I am interested in. In the context of your post, what was your reason for raising it, true or not?
    Last edited by Lyv; 10-27-2017 at 11:41 PM.

  12. #62
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    I was "prevented" from having a vote in the primaries because NY is a closed-primary state, and though I could have, I did not change my registration to Dem to vote in the primary, so Hillary didn't get a vote there. I'm not the only independent vote she'd have gotten. There are ones he'd have gotten too. She still kicked his ass.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighttimer View Post

    Sanders does not deserve the Black vote. He's got to earn it and thus far, he has not.
    This also goes for members of other groups that have been left in the cold by politics, even liberal politics. When one's civil rights are treated as a negotiable talking point at best, and ignored at worst (or when institutional racism/sexism/homophobia etc. is dismissed as being all about economics and fixable via expansion of health care and worker's rights alone), it's hard to muster a lot of enthusiasm.

    This isn't a problem that only plagues Sanders's progressive movement either, of course. It's haunted Democrats for some time. It's one reason why the people who traditionally vote for Democratic candidates tend to be "flighty" as voters. It's frustrating to be treated like one's concerns are lesser, just because one is a minority (or in the case of women, not a minority, but still treated as such).

    I will say that the day the DNC removes reproductive health, rights and justice from their platform is the day I register as an independent. There are other issues I'd do this for too (civil rights for all being one), but one of them isn't support for single-payer (much as I agree with it and would like to see it) health care. The principle of equal rights and protection for all people is one reason I've been in democrat for all of my adult life.
    Last edited by Roxxsmom; 10-28-2017 at 12:10 AM.
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    I don't know anything about that. There are a lot of lies out there. So check your sources, however, if it is reliable information look at the district or state or whatever region is involved. There are some places where that is the local litmus test either for or against on that one single issue. If they don't get elected they can't work on any of the other things. Also Bernie is in the position to know things about candidates that we aren't and they may be things that makes him not want to support them but doesn't want to air the laundry in public.
    Why don't you check the link cornflake posted above? That's where this discussion stemmed from.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    That's what I said although with different words
    Right. So apparently, when Bernie supporters decide who to vote for, it's "her emails, blah blah blah Goldman Sachs," but pro-choice is "a stupid hill to die on."

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    That's certainly a possibility but far from the only one. I've known people to vote for a president based on hair. I think it's an incredibly stupid way to do things, but that is their right.
    Yes, it's their right, and I think it's stupid. Some of these people probably have the same blind faith in Bernie that Trump supporters had in him. If Bernie had become president, I think you'd see many of his supporters turning on him because he didn't do everything he said he wanted on his first day, because they are just as clueless about how it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    I never said it was the only place. I said, as you said that the problem is with the media and not enough progressives actually getting attention
    Bernie supporters should not need the media to care about a progressive candidate. They can do their own research. If they really cared about social issues, they would.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    Go by what they've done, not by what they said
    The Democratic party has done a lot to defend reproductive choice for as long as I can remember. That's just one example, there are plenty of others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    ....
    I have personally heard him speak on the topic so I believe you have been listening to trolls or sources that chop things up to deliberately take things out of context, which again are lies
    Kind of like 90% of what's out there on Clinton.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    His plans to pay for them are sound as opposed to other politicians who never present a plan, just a dogma
    I have personally heard him speak on the topic so I believe you have been listening to trolls or sources that chop things up to deliberately take things out of context, which again are lies
    I don't know who you mean who never presents a plan besides Trump, as you have to be aware Hillary had quite detailed, specific plans.

    As to the latter -- he endorsed an anti-choice candidate. That's a thing he did.

    Hillary? Would fucking NEVER. Never.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    When the people who voted for the nonsense going on have their own health issues, they will see
    Yep. I watched an interview with a Republican senator who came out in favor of legalized marijuana. I thought, "Gosh, I bet there's a man within his own personal circle of friends who's sick and medical marijuana helped him a lot." Sure enough, about two sentences later, the senator brought up the fact that a guy who's a friend of his had been taking numerous prescriptions daily for his medical condition without much success, but immediately had a better result when using medical marijuana. To me, this seems to be the hallmark of the Republican party today. A problem isn't a problem until it affects someone that they know and consider an equal. Then, and only then, is it a problem that needs to be fixed. No empathy or concern for people outside of their own circle. Healthcare costs won't matter until they and theirs can't get it.
    Last edited by MAS; 10-28-2017 at 06:27 AM.

  19. #69
    Joker Groupie Celia Cyanide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    His plans to pay for them are sound as opposed to other politicians who never present a plan, just a dogma
    I don't think that "having a plan to pay" for all the spending you're going to do qualifies you as "fiscally conservative."
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  20. #70
    practical experience, FTW MaeZe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAS View Post
    Yep. I watched an interview with a Republican senator who came out in favor of legalized marijuana. I thought, "Gosh, I bet there's a man within his own personal circle of friends who's sick and medical marijuana helped him a lot." Sure enough, about two sentences later, the senator brought up the fact that a guy who's a friend of his had been taking numerous prescriptions daily for his medical condition without much success, but immediately had a better result when using medical marijuana. To me, this seems to be the hallmark of the Republican party today. A problem isn't a problem until it affects someone that they know and consider an equal. Then, and only then, is it a problem that needs to be fixed. No empathy or concern for people outside of their own circle. Healthcare costs won't matter until they and theirs can't get it.
    [sidetrack] Legalizing Marijuana Decreases Fatal Opiate Overdoses, Study Shows Thought that was worth pointing out. [/sidetrack]

    Sorry, carry on....

  21. #71
    Joker Groupie Celia Cyanide's Avatar
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    NPR says 1 in 10 Sanders supporters voted for Trump.

    http://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812..._medium=social
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  22. #72
    The King and Queen of Cheese BenPanced's Avatar
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    (Potentially NSFW in the links. Use caution.)

    Gay porn star Colby Keller: "I'm voting for Trump to escalate the problem!"
    I think he’s a destabilizing force. I’m skeptical of him, too, and who exactly is behind Trump. But given that there’s eternal dissent in the Republican Party, that leads me to believe that whatever he represents might be a destabilizing force.
    Gay porn star Colby Keller: "Here's why I voted for Trump!"
    So when I cast my vote last November, I knew that tying our many political successes in the ongoing struggle for LGBTQ liberation to an institution in rapid decline, like our corrupt Democratic Party, is not a strategy to preserve those gains into the future. Maintaining our rights in a world destroyed by climate-related chaos will require tremendous perseverance and fortitude.
    Gay porn star Wesley Woods: "Colby Keller's privilege is showing!"
    My relationships with those that are socially disempowered and highly impacted by politics, makes me more sensitive and offended by white masculine privilege, like that shown by fellow gay pornstar- Colby Keller- a man who obviously lives in an ivory tower without any minority friends.

    Is that why he doesn't understand the impact and power of his vote? “I think the problem is that I don’t support Trump,” Keller says. ”I did VOTE for Trump, that’s the distinction.”

    The problem with this "distinction" and ideology is that there isn't one. A vote IS support. A vote isn't anything more or anything less than SHOWING support of that candidate.
    Voting for a candidate you don't agree with because you want to "shake things up" when you don't support them is...what's the word? Oh, yeah!...bullshit.
    I still poop rainbows.

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  23. #73
    Player of the Year nighttimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celia Cyanide View Post
    NPR says 1 in 10 Sanders supporters voted for Trump.

    http://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812..._medium=social
    Thanks for the link, Celia. This part stood out for me.

    And then there is race. Nearly half of Sanders-Trump voters disagree with the idea that "white people have advantages."
    Interesting, but hardly a revelation. White liberals/progressives are not inoculated from the disease of soft bigotry. Then there's this:

    BuzzFeed reported late Friday that the Sanders staff is very concerned about the deleterious effect of the “Bros,” passionate fans who harass and bully Clintonites, as well as those who criticize Sanders or report something that puts him in an unfavorable light.

    It’s probably costing Sanders votes. Even if it isn’t, it’s best he admonish the cultish behavior of his supporters when it manifests as trolling, misogyny, and “hipster racism.” It is the right thing to do. If Sanders is attracting support for standing up to the Man, he should also confront some of his own.
    Trolling, misogyny and hipster racism, eh? That's one hell of a Larry, Curly and Moe for the Bernie Bros to deal with.

    I often wonder if their true mission isn't to get a fair shake from the DNC, but to burn it down to the ground and start a brand new thing with St. Bernie the Magnificent as their own Personal Jesus or new L. Ron Hubbard.

    Most cults don't start as one, but over time that's what they become.
    Most people don't want to change. They're comfortable and set in their ways. But in order to change, you have to be able to agitate people at times. And I think that's something that's very necessary for us to improve as a country.
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  24. #74
    There's a stick up there Kjbartolotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighttimer View Post
    Interesting, but hardly a revelation. White liberals/progressives are not inoculated from the disease of soft bigotry.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ations/424602/

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...nation/425022/

    (At the risk of sounding like a white liberal who cites Coates to appear woke) I'm reminded of the period before the primary when Coates spoke out on Bernie's attitude towards reparations. It was quite galling the level to which Bernie seemed dismissive of the notion, and as a progressive voice he seemed not that interested in even considering the issue. Not that I'm saying he had to agree fully, but "no, too controversial" is a very bad argument for a left-wing insurgent candidate to make. The blowback Coates had to deal with afterwards from supporters was what really gave me pause, (though I give points to Killer Mike for making a candid, if respectful and intelligent counterargument) and I still can't find a Bernie supporter anywhere that knows or cares about this episode.

    My takeaway from this was not that Bernie Sanders is bigoted in any way, instead that his view is that of an old-school American socialist, and he believes that by solving class equality you can solve race equality (and again, cribbing from Coates here). I've felt this way myself before, since I exist as a white man in a white man's world, it's easy to think this and not see what a huge blind spot you've developed. I'm lucky enough to have a GF who sat me down and gave me a very serious talking-to about this, as much as I respect Jane Sanders I doubt she's gonna do this with Bernie any time soon.
    Last edited by Kjbartolotta; 10-28-2017 at 08:50 PM.

  25. #75
    Joker Groupie Celia Cyanide's Avatar
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    Wow. I never knew about that.
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