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Thread: DNC purges progressives

  1. #26
    practical experience, FTW cornflake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    I think you've been listening to trolls telling deliberate lies rather than actual Bernie supporters. His top three issues are Healthcare (ranging from access to affordability including cost of medications), Environment (pollution to renewable energy) and Education (making it accessible and affordable for those who can actually do it.) Do you not consider those social issues?
    If his top issue, or one of his top three issues, is healthcare, how does that square with endorsing a candidate who is anti-choice and restrictive about access to healthcare?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    I think you've been listening to trolls telling deliberate lies rather than actual Bernie supporters. His top three issues are Healthcare (ranging from access to affordability including cost of medications), Environment (pollution to renewable energy) and Education (making it accessible and affordable for those who can actually do it.) Do you not consider those social issues?
    Yes, but they're not the only social issues.

    As cornflake said above, birth control, comprehensive sexuality education, and reproductive rights are health issues. How do Bernie supporters decide which social issues, and which parts of which individual social issues, get thrown under the bus?

    And are you telling me that people who say they support Bernie and don't care about social issues are lying? Why?

    If Bernie supporters did support other progressive candidates, wouldn't we know about it?
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  3. #28
    Mankind is my Business AW Moderator RichardGarfinkle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cornflake View Post
    If his top issue, or one of his top three issues, is healthcare, how does that square with endorsing a candidate who is anti-choice and restrictive about access to healthcare?
    I fear that it is because to many people these are not seen as healthcare issues.
    Or to be blunter
    health care = how much do men have to pay?
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  4. #29
    All about that action, boss. ElaineA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Introversion View Post
    Hmm. Why is it dismaying to point out that Flake voted lockstep for Trump’s policies? Why are centrists interested in anything resembling the current Republican platform?
    It was more the tone, and the timing, than the content. I don't have any issue pointing out the hypocrisy, but it can be done in a way that doesn't come across as spiteful. I thought this was a sledgehammer approach.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyv View Post
    Not to put you on the spot, but what would your definition of "progressive" be? I ask that a lot and get different answers. I have been a proud Democrat my entire adult life and worked for social justice and for progress as a liberal, so I was surprised to find many Bernie-supporter progressives basically considered me to a conservative because I supported Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders for president. Nothing else mattered, only which candidate I supported.



    I'd like to see your source for that. Did they further break down demographics by race. Did they also look at men? Do you remember?
    Given that HRC and Bernie agreed on more than 90% of issues, I'd like to know what differentiates being a progressive vs a liberal. I thought the terms were pretty interchangeable. I consider myself both, but I voted for Clinton in the primaries and the general election. As far as I know, Clinton supported all of the social issues I do, and it sounds like (now) that Bernie and some of his followers actually consider social justice, including women's rights (the heart of what I thought it meant to be progressive), to be optional.

    The reason why Republicans win presidential elections (not to mention controls the house, senate, and most of the governorships) is that, in most states people who don't agree with or benefit from all, or even most, of what the GOP stands for still vote for them. Why? I've no idea, but the fact that the GOP still engenders more brand loyalty, and can also attract disaffected moderates and liberals, suggests that the democrats are failing at something the GOP is succeeding at. Maybe a lot of it is just racism etc. and a bunch of scared old white people who stupidly think they can set the clock back to circa 1955. People are afraid, and fear appears to make people more conservative in some ways.

    But neither party is doing a good job of addressing what can be done about the number one job killer--technology that increasingly requires fewer humans to do jobs at all levels of education and skill (even in the sciences). The GOP focuses on immigrants and (in Trump's case) globalization as culprits that are stealing US jobs, and the Democrats push the conversion of our public higher education system to vocational schools for STEM (something the GOP is happy to go along with, since their kids usually go to elite, private schools anyway, and it behooves them for "commoners" to be disposable worker bees who haven't been thought to think critically--aka been liberalized--in school). No one is really ready to rethink our concepts of wealth, work, and ownership and to step outside of the traditional "capitalist vs socialist" box.
    Last edited by Roxxsmom; 10-26-2017 at 09:11 PM.
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  6. #31
    practical experience, FTW cornflake's Avatar
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    To the latter of Roxx's post -- there's a section in Hillary's book in which she addresses the whole coal miner thing, and her forthright addressing of the issue, and how, before the campaign, she'd looked into a bunch of things to address the changing economic and industrial future, including universal basic income schemes, which she and Bill had been introduced to, been excited by, then delved into deeply and felt there were too many issues with to advocate implementing on the kind of scale that'd be necessary in the U.S.

    Someone was thinking about this stuff, and looking deeply into the numbers, the actual potential implementation, what all of it would mean, etc. That person is currently probably getting coffee in Chappaqua. Sigh.

  7. #32
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    To be fair, I would hesitate to argue that one needs a "liberal arts education" to be able to think clearly and rationally about important topics. Some of the most eloquent, intelligent, thoughtful people I know didn't go to college at all. On the other hand, some of the dullest, most unclear thinkers were liberal arts majors.

    If there's a way to teach people to think, I don't believe it lies inherently in being enrolled in "English 203 - Socialist Perspectives in Literature."

  8. #33
    Perpetually in transit Helix's Avatar
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    FWIW, after Sanders threw his hat in the ring for the nomination, I followed a bunch of his supporters on Twitter to find out what they were thinking. The principal activity of almost all of those accounts was posting anti-Clinton video and memes. They're still doing it and they're not bots. So I'm not sure what to think.


  9. #34
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    Certainly not all of them, and maybe just a vocal minority, but I've seen enough to say that some (not all, not many, specific use of language here) Bernie supporters seem to fueled by the same burning anger, sense of being wronged somehow with accompanying conspiracy theories, and need cast themselves in a heroic anti-establishment light that put Trump in office. (sorry for the run-on sentence and I need to drop the Bernie animus)

  10. #35
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    A lot of older Democrats are not happy with the Clinton family and those that supported them. There was a bit of long struggle in the 70s and 80s in the Democratic Party. The emergent Third Way strategy appealed to the university-attending crowds but those who tracked to tech schools and traditionally joined unions were not in favour. The anti-Clinton folks largely voted for Obama because they believed Obama was behind them. In many ways, Obama held true. Lots to disagree with but there was lots to be in favour of Obama.

  11. #36
    There's a stick up there Kjbartolotta's Avatar
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    The frustration with the Third Way I get and can even agree with, though I'm not sure I see where Obama was so dramatically different from the Clintons. Shinier and baggage free yes, plus a really good man and great president. Dramatically more liberal/progressive than the Clintons, no, IMHO that is perception far more than reality.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kjbartolotta View Post
    The frustration with the Third Way I get and can even agree with, though I'm not sure I see where Obama was so dramatically different from the Clintons. Shinier and baggage free yes, plus a really good man and great president. Dramatically more liberal/progressive than the Clintons, no, IMHO that is perception far more than reality.
    True. And some of them were exhausted by his work not matching his words.

  13. #38
    There's a stick up there Kjbartolotta's Avatar
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    Obama's awesome by the way. I was super-hard on him during his presidency, and some of it was pretty unfair, but I feel like you should admire politicians before and after their terms. When their in office, make their lives hard.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kjbartolotta View Post
    Obama's awesome by the way. I was super-hard on him during his presidency, and some of it was pretty unfair, but I feel like you should admire politicians before and after their terms. When their in office, make their lives hard.
    I feel the same way. But he was very much a centrist while in office.

    I miss having a centrist in office.
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  15. #40
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    Just want to note that I have nothing of substance to add after my observation, but I'm following this thread with interest.


  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineA View Post
    if you're going to latch on to the Democratic party and then work to undermine its candidates, go form your own damn party.
    Hear, hear!

    I'm fine to push my party to the left. We have a lot of problems need to overcome--such as not centering our base. But if you just want to Godzilla all over the structure and people do go it elsewhere.
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  17. #42
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    Hi Liv,
    For me progressive and liberal are interchangeable. I define it as a deep concern for workers and civil rights. At its best, a progressive agenda recognizes how interconnected these issues are. Fighting economic inequalities and injustices for everyone regardless of gender, race etc can have a huge positive effect on civil rights issues. A very old example-- back in the 20s when Ford Motor Co started paying line workers the same wages regardless of race, that was one of the big foundations for an emerging black middle class.

    I'm American, but I have a different perspective on US politics because I live in Europe where the party spectrum is much broader. Policies considered radically left in the US are mainstream here (health care!). And even some of the far right parties here are more liberal than the Republican Party on social issues in particular. So when I look at the Dems today, I see a center-right party (strong on social issues but weak on driving real economic programs that stomp on neo-liberalism) when I feel it should be center-left. The labels left and right are increasingly useless anyway.

    On women's voting patterns, I'm pretty sure I read it on Nate Silver's Fivethirtyeight.com. I loved their election coverage and the stastical look at what was happening.

  18. #43
    Joker Groupie Celia Cyanide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kjbartolotta View Post
    The frustration with the Third Way I get and can even agree with, though I'm not sure I see where Obama was so dramatically different from the Clintons. Shinier and baggage free yes, plus a really good man and great president. Dramatically more liberal/progressive than the Clintons, no, IMHO that is perception far more than reality.
    I agree, and sometimes I feel like some of the crap that Mrs. Clinton got came from a distorted view of Obama. I mean, I love the man. Like you, I was hard on him while he was in office, but I miss him, and he's probably my favorite President. But he was a centrist. John Kerry was probably much more liberal than him.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by vsrenard View Post
    This was my entire problem with the 'Bernie got robbed' mentality. He was always a DINO at best, really an independent. Whether or not I support the DNC (and really, I think they need a massive infusion of new blood), declaring yourself to be a Dem and demanding the party machinery support you when you don't support the party is bound to backfire.
    That's not how it happened. They were invited in and promised a fair shake because the DNC does need more voters but what they wanted was blind loyalists to pray to the DNC god. They want party before country, before planet They didn't care if the blood was old or new. They did not want new ideas. They did not want a shake up of their aristocracy. They liked things just the way they were because they, just like the leaders of the GOP get their campaign funds from the same sources. They are beholden to the same lobbies. They do not pass any meaningful reforms because they like it just the way it is. They want to, "Stay the course." The only difference between the DNC leaders and the GOP leaders is the DNC use language that is a little more politically correct, but it's just lip service.

    What they promised they did not deliver and my hope is that the centrists will form a new party, one that cares about the planet and the country and the people.

  20. #45
    practical experience, FTW Twick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    The only difference between the DNC leaders and the GOP leaders is the DNC use language that is a little more politically correct, but it's just lip service.
    If that's truly how you see it, I imagine you'll have little time for "centrists."

    Do you really believe that by the time Trump has dismantled everything built by Obama and previous presidents (EPA, Department of Education, Title IX), there won't be any difference?

  21. #46
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  22. #47
    ever seeking GeorgeK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celia Cyanide View Post
    Yes, but they're not the only social issues.
    birth control, comprehensive sexuality education, and reproductive rights are health issues.
    Yes, those all and more fall under the heading of healthcare. I don't understand your point
    Quote Originally Posted by Celia Cyanide View Post
    How do Bernie supporters decide which social issues, and which parts of which individual social issues, get thrown under the bus?
    They don't. That's the thing about representative democracy. The person you elect does. All the individual does is help to elect their representative. Beyond that the individual has no real say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celia Cyanide View Post

    And are you telling me that people who say they support Bernie and don't care about social issues are lying? Why?
    Because social issues is pretty much what Bernie represents, so if they disagree with him on everything he represents then they obviously by definition are not his supporters
    Quote Originally Posted by Celia Cyanide View Post

    If Bernie supporters did support other progressive candidates, wouldn't we know about it?
    Not unless you are active in local politics and have a local progressive running. Local politics generally doesn't make national news. We are also at the mercy of the media which lives by the mantra, "If it bleeds, it leads." The media doesn't want to listen to reason or logic or long term plans. They want controversy, strife and manic shouting.

    I'm not sure what other national possible candidates are progressive. It would be nice if they got some press so we could follow them and see their stances
    Last edited by GeorgeK; 10-27-2017 at 10:20 PM.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    Yes, those all and more fall under the heading of healthcare. I don't understand your point
    That Bernie is not really supporting those things, if he is campaigning for pro-life candidates.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    They don't. That's the thing about representative democracy. The person you elect does. All the individual does is help to elect their representative. Beyond that the individual has no real say.
    They have their say when they decide who to vote for.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    Because social issues is pretty much what Bernie represents, so if they disagree with him on everything he represents then they obviously by definition are not his supporters
    No, it doesn't really work like that. People can support a candidate for any reason they want to. It could be because they're ignorant and don't know what that person represents, or just because they like that person for whatever reason. They're not lying about being Bernie supporters. They just don't know what he stands for.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    Not unless you are active in local politics and have a local progressive running.
    What? Why? Local politics is not the only place where progressives exist. Bernie is "local" to somewhere, but he has national attention, when no other progressive does.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
    The only difference between the DNC leaders and the GOP leaders is the DNC use language that is a little more politically correct, but it's just lip service.
    That is absolutely not true to the people who are actually affected by these social issues.
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twick View Post
    If that's truly how you see it, I imagine you'll have little time for "centrists."

    Do you really believe that by the time Trump has dismantled everything built by Obama and previous presidents (EPA, Department of Education, Title IX), there won't be any difference?
    There is no such thing as Left, Right or Center anymore. Those are meaningless terms and harken to the blind loyalty to a party from the 50's and sixties and what both the DNC and GOP are trying to bring back. The internet has allowed people to do their own research and the largest demographic now is someone who is Environmentally Liberal, Socially Moderate, and Fiscally Conservative. Neither the DNC or GOP represents that demographic. That's why Bernie has the support that he does, but the DNC and GOP rules prevented his supporters from having a vote, mostly in the primaries, but the primaries decide it. Few realize that write in votes are not counted at all unless a person is a registered independent candidate.

    As to Trump's dismantling of everything, if you notice it's pretty much all by Executive Orders which mean the next Pres can nix it all on day one. That's really the best thing that Obama did when he could was try to let things go through the Supreme Court because an EO can not legally reverse that

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