Swearing

Kallithrix said:

Same here - I don't write YA either. I just found Ron's coarse language quite surprising. If he was my kid, he'd get such a spanking... lol

Several of my characters are very potty mouthed, and one of my favourite things about writing them is coming up with new slang and obscenities. So, my Egyptian harem girls exclaim oaths like 'Hathor's holy tits!' of 'Nut's cosmic cunt!' - it's fun to make up colourful blasphemy

My MC is of better breeding, and very rarely swears - except when he's been in the company of his brother in law, who is also of earthier stock, and a little coarse mannered. After a few scenes in his company, my MC is effing and jeffing without even knowing it, tee hee

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In my WIP the MC and several of his cohorts are rather coarse and have less education than others - so they curse more.

amergina said:

People in the military still curse.

As an aside, what do you mean by "politically correct"?

I'm curious, because people who use the term often mean "Waaaa! I get called out when I'm spouting off racist, sexist, and queer-phobic stuff and I wanna be an asshole without being called out!"

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Yep, exactly. I curse a TON and never minded when others did, but on my watch team the "f-word" was banned--that word being faggot.

PC and swearing are two separate things.

Dunno about the armed services, but if swearing had been banned at uni, I don't think I could have survived even one round of global emails from management.

And a colleague who wasn't used to wearing a mike for lectures thought she was swearing to herself. So for one cohort, the first word of the first lecture they attended was 'fuck'. They loved it and it broke the ice. Ironically, she was swearing at malfunctioning technology.

Honestly, you can probably do without it.

I was watching Star Trek: Discovery, yesterday, and on the latest episode, I think it's the fifth, one of the characters says, "That's fucking cool." And everyone pauses and looks at her, and she says, "Sorry". And then the other character says, "No, it *is* fucking cool."

And it really clashed with the show because I do think this is the only swear words in the series so far.

'Fucking' clashed for several reasons. One, the point could have been made without the word. Two, really, in 2250, are they still using 14th century swear words in exactly the same way we use them now in 2017? The word has changed in its general usage over the centuries, as language tends to do.

If you haven't used it before, I think swear words bring too much attention to themselves in the narrative.

The television series 'Battlestar Galactica' (the new one), and 'Farscape' were very clever with swear words. 'Frack' and 'frell' are two of the "swear" words I remember.

Denevius said:

are they still using 14th century swear words in exactly the same way we use them now in 2017? The word has changed in its general usage over the centuries, as language tends to do.

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Correct. That word wasn't used as a swear word until the 20th century, as I understand. I've read it became such during WWI. Prior to that, it was used simply in a vulgar sexual context.

caw

indianroads said:

The television series 'Battlestar Galactica' (the new one), and 'Farscape' were very clever with swear words. 'Frack' and 'frell' are two of the "swear" words I remember.

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In the future, 'Frack' might refer to fracking, and 'Frell' might refer to free-falling, so em...not sure waht my point is...

indianroads said:

The television series 'Battlestar Galactica' (the new one), and 'Farscape' were very clever with swear words. 'Frack' and 'frell' are two of the "swear" words I remember.

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The "Frack" or "Frak" swear word was actually also used in the original 1970s version of Battlestar Galactica, and was one of the "tokens" they carried over to the new series to pay homage. But now I'm just being a typical, fussy nerd.

Shoeless said:

The "Frack" or "Frak" swear word was actually also used in the original 1970s version of Battlestar Galactica, and was one of the "tokens" they carried over to the new series to pay homage. But now I'm just being a typical, fussy nerd.

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I didn't much like the original version - the newer one was excellent IMO though. Anyway - I think for futuristic SciFi maybe sound-similar words could be substituted.

indianroads said:

I didn't much like the original version - the newer one was excellent IMO though. Anyway - I think for futuristic SciFi maybe sound-similar words could be substituted.

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Oh, I completely agree with you. New BSG was a great piece of SF television. I have fond, childhood memories of original 70s BSG, but... when they go to a Disco Planet... and this is no way ironic... yeah...

The main thing, I think, is consistency. So if the show starts off with 'frack', then the audience understands that this is a common lexicon of the narrative universe. But if you throw it in after several chapters/series have gone by, then that rings a bit discordant, I think.

Especially since your characters managed to express whatever emotion is supposed to be punctuated by the swear word perfectly fine. It raises the question of whether it's needed at all. Also since swear words, deserved or not, does have an impact upon the sensibilities of your audience. For some people, it'll turn them off quite a lot.

Didn't The Sex Pistols have to go, 'friggin' in the riggin'?

although, to be fair, friggin might actually have been the correct term.

Toothpick said:

I've been writing a battle scene for hours now, and though there aren't any swears anywhere in my novel, I stumbled upon a part in which I'm thinking of actually putting one. So now I'm here wondering would people mind if there are no swears in the almost dark fantasy/military fantasy type of novel.. and if they wouldn't, would they mind if they suddenly found one in the middle of the book, given how no part before had any swears in it? Also if someone would mind I'd love to hear why

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Write what feels honest.

Swearing is common now, not so much in the past, but still done.

For instance, the word "fuck" has been used as an exclamation for hundreds of years. It's used more now than in the past, but it was still used in the past.

If your novel isn't dripping with expletives, it's way more powerful when you dump one in on your reader.

Even evangelical Christians (I was one for a long time, so I'm not talking bad about them) won't be offended if one is dropped off in context where it makes sense.

Davy The First said:

Didn't The Sex Pistols have to go, 'friggin' in the riggin'?

although, to be fair, friggin might actually have been the correct term.

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I don't think they changed it. There was even an episode of 'Up Pompeii!' (aired on the BBC in 1970) with a line about "a Phrygian in the rigging".

Helix said:

I don't think they changed it. There was even an episode of 'Up Pompeii!' (aired on the BBC in 1970) with a line about "a Phrygian in the rigging".

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Haha, really? I musta missed that one

I also noted that F-bomb in the new Star Trek series, which pulled me up and actually made me hit rewind to confirm they'd said what I thought they'd said. It was just so.... un-Star Trek. But this series is very different in tone from the previous ones, and actually, I thought it made a pretty bold statement. They're saying 'hey, you won't see any punches pulled in this show - we're going dark, so you'd better fucking deal with it'.

I actually love the direction they're taking Discovery, and when they passed that watershed last week, I realised I was really looking forward to seeing what other envelopes they push

Kallithrix said:

I actually love the direction they're taking Discovery, and when they passed that watershed last week, I realised I was really looking forward to seeing what other envelopes they push

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You guys are making it reeeeeeeeeeally hard to wait for the inevitable Blu-Ray release of season 1...

Is this the series with (hello to) Jason Isaacs in it?

leifwright said:

Swearing is common now, not so much in the past, but still done.

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In the past??? Seriously, the older I get, the more swear words I need...

Helix said:

Is this the series with (hello to) Jason Isaacs in it?

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Tis indeed. And much as I love our morally upright, stiff-upper-lipped English gent Piccard, I really like the moral ambiguity they've introduced to Captain Lorca. Coupled with making the main character a disgraced officer court martialled for mutiny, this is shaping up to be a very interesting show

Shoeless said:

You guys are making it reeeeeeeeeeally hard to wait for the inevitable Blu-Ray release of season 1...

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Sorreeee....not sorry

Kallithrix said:

Sorreeee....not sorry

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I'll be strong. I've still only seen the first couple of seasons of Game of Thrones. I'll wait 'till it wraps up, buy all the seasons on disc, then binge.

Shoeless said:

I'll be strong. I've still only seen the first couple of seasons of Game of Thrones. I'll wait 'till it wraps up, buy all the seasons on disc, then binge.

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Bloody hell (to quote Ron) - even my MOTHER has seen more than that! (although not much - she's just started season 4, but she won't watch without me because I have to keep pausing to explain all the characters and worldbuilding to her!)

Yes, people were so polite in the good old days.



Much wine had passed, with grave discourse
Of who fucks who, and who does worse
(Such as you usually do hear
From those that diet at the Bear),
When I, who still take care to see 5
Drunkenness relieved by lechery,
Weent out into St. James's Park
To cool my head and fire my heart.
But though St. James has th' honor on 't,
'Tis consecrate to prick and cunt. 10
There, by a most incestuous birth,
Strange woods spring from the teeming earth;
For they relate how heretofore,
When ancient Pict behan to whore,
Deluded of his assignation 15
(Jilting, it seems, was then in fashion),
Poor pensive lover, in this place
Would frig upon his mother's face;
Whence rows of mandrakes tall did rise
Whose lewd tops fucked the very skies. 20
Each imitative branch does twine
In some loved fold of Aretine,
And nightly now beneath their shade
Are buggeries, rapes, and incests made.
Unto this all-sin-sheltering grove 25
Whores of the bulk and the alcove,
Great ladies, chambermaids, and drudges,
The ragpicker, and heiress trudges.
Carmen, divines, great lords, and tailors,
Prentices, poets, pimps, and jailers, 30
Footmen, fine fops do here arrive,
And here promiscuously they swive.

-- Earl of Rochester, 1647 - 1680



Anyway--I do find having loads of modern style swearing to be kind of dated in a way. Kameron Hurley's "God's War" is written like that, and fair enough some people do enjoy it, but it spoiled the otherworldly feel for me. They just sound very 21st century Earth. Maybe that's the point I guess.

Kallithrix said:

This is an interesting one. To me, having Ron constantly use the swear word 'bloody' was pretty shocking for a pre-teen. In my white, middle class, conservative upbringing, that word was NOT tolerated in any way shape or form, at least until I was old enough for my parents to be thankful that it was no worse So I did flinch a bit every time I came across it in the book. It was jarring, common, coarse, and not something I would want MY ten year old to be reading (if I had one).

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I'm no expert, being American, but the British folks I know best (friends of the family) use "bloody" pretty liberally. They were (are now retired) university profs from the south of England who speak pretty "posh" English. I never knew it was a "bad" word. The way I've heard it used it's more like an intensifier, and people used it in British books I read growing up. It got tossed around a lot in the All Creatures Great and Small Books, which were billed as heartwarming family classics.

It may be a lot like some expressions in the US that many think are pretty mainstream or considered mild swears these days, appearing even in PG movies--damn, crap, etc. Some people still dislike them, but others hardly even notice. There are regional and cultural differences in what people think of as normal usage too, at least over here.

I'm a child of the 70s, and I remember my mom desperately trying to get me and my brother to talk nicely. She didn't even like it when we used words like "butt." It was hard, though, with my dad in the house. He swore profanely and creatively.

On the other hand... the word 'bitch' does not even register as a swear word. It's not a nice term, and growing up I would certainly have been told off for using it, but it somehow just doesn't strike me as so vulgar. It didn't even make me blink to see it in HP - maybe because of the context in which it was said, or because it was said by an adult.

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Now see, if you asked me, I'd say "bitch" is a stronger swear than any of the above, or than "bloody. It depends on how it's used, though. Referring to someone as "bitching" when they're complaining is pretty PG. But calling a woman a bitch is a pretty serious insult, and rather misogynistic. Calling a man a bitch is even more insulting, because it's assailing his masculinity by comparing him to (horrors) a woman. But I got into a debate with some other writers (in a forum where one isn't supposed to use swears) about whether the expression "bitch slap" is taboo. I hate it and think it's incredibly sexist, trivializing violence against women. But many of the younger people didn't think the expression was a big deal at all.

That's the thing about words. It's hard to get past one's own history and associations with them.

Anyway, I was far less shocked by that than I was by all Ron's swearing.

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But most of the time Ron wasn't around his parents in the HP books. I seem to recall his mom telling him to watch his mouth on one occasion, though. He had all those older brothers, so his using those words doesn't seem that odd too me. I certainly knew plenty of kids who swore a lot (when grownups weren't around, anyway) growing up.

Bloody used to be more severe (referring to the blood of christ). But so did taking the Lord's name in vain, as a general expression; some things have diluted as the importance of religion has scaled back.

Bloody used to be the Great Australian Adjective*, but it's been replaced.

*see poems by W.T. Goodge (1898) and C.J. Dennis (1908) **

** the Dennis poem also celebrates the popularity of the sweary tmesis in Australian conversation.