A question about third-person limited POV name knowledge

Scott Kaelen · Oct 19, 2017

Hi, all. I'd really appreciate some expert on an issue I'm having in my completed manuscript.

I've written an epic fantasy novel in third-person limited. There is a POV scene in the perspective of a secondary character, in which he meets the main characters for the first time.

The reader knows that the MCs' names are Dagra, Jalis and Oriken, but the POV character has been told that their names are Dagger, Chalice and the Orc King. POV character refers to them as such, and throughout the scene the narrative and the MCs' dialogue tags are Dagger, Chalice and the Orc King.

I've done it this way because, to the best of my knowledge, third-person limited dictates that we should write in what the scene character knows/thinks, not what the reader knows, regardless of whether they contradict one another.

My beta reader is suggesting that I should change the narrative mentions and dialogue tags of the three MCs to their actual names instead of the names presumed by the POV character. She says I should do this because the reader knows their real names.

My beta reader is also an author, but she writes only in omniscient so I'm hoping this is her lack of understanding of the mechanics of third-person limited, and that I can keep the presumed names in the narrative and dialogue tags.

Which of us is right?

For better clarification, here's a brief excerpt of the scene:

“Deceivers as well as outlanders.” Wayland snorted. “I know your names.” He glanced to the short, bearded one. “Dagger.” Then behind to the woman. “Chalice!” he called, then turned back to the lofty one. “And you are the Orc King. Don’t look much like an orc to me. Nor a king. But what do I know? Your greatest folly was in venturing to this place.”
“Hey,” the Orc King said with a shrug. “You know the old saying. When from the Folly—”
“Not now, Oriken,” Chalice hissed.
“Hm. Oriken, is it? Fair enough. Can’t blame Demelza. She’s not so good with names. Now, I’m afraid you have to die.”
“You won’t pull off more than one shot before the rest of us rip you to shreds,” Dagger said. “You must know that.”
Wayland nodded. “And yet I have no choice.”
Oriken leaned forward. “There are always choices.”
“Why?” Dagger lowered his sword. “What have we ever done to you?”
Wayland’s heart was thudding in his chest. He’d hurt his fair share of men in the past. It was a part of village life. But he’d never killed a man, and the bearded fellowthat stood before him now, asking his question in earnest, was no mindless creature, not even a gobshite in need ofa painful lesson. These three were not animalsto be slain for meat and skin and bones. But if he were to let them go…
“You should never have ventured into the fell,” he told Dagger, training the arrow across to him. “Outsiders are not welcome here.”

To the mods: I hope I've posted this in the right forum. Apologies if not. By all means move the post if it's better suited elsewhere.

JDlugosz · Oct 19, 2017

I would agree that the "voice" of the narrative is from that character, and so is the knowledge.

TellMeAStory · Oct 19, 2017

Not at all sure if this would work, but could your MC and POV character be noticing the same identifier in each of these characters? something like "the tallest one" or "the deeply scarred one" so that your reader will realize it's the same dude even when the name differs?

Scott Kaelen · Oct 19, 2017

@TellMeAStory
I did that briefly by referring to Jalis a couple of times as "the woman" (she's the only woman present), and Dagra as "the bearded man", but I changed "the woman" to "Chalice" now.

The thing is, the 'wrong' names are phonetically very close to the true names.
Dagger > Dagra
Chalice > Jalis
The Orc King > Oriken
So the reader by this stage in the novel ought to be familiar enough to tell who's who without being pulled from the story. This scene is 3/5ths of the way through a 173,000-word novel.

With it being strict third-person limited, I can't justify using the three MC characters' real names. I agree that it would definitely happen in omniscient, but it doesn't feel at all right to do it in limited.

ironmikezero · Oct 19, 2017

The character's POV makes the most sense and maintains the overall continuity of the scene, IMHO. Stick to your guns.

blacbird · Oct 19, 2017

Scott Kaelen said:
I've written an epic fantasy novel in third-person limited. There is a POV scene in the perspective of a secondary character, in which he meets the main characters for the first time.

The reader knows that the MCs' names are Dagra, Jalis and Oriken, but the POV character has been told that their names are Dagger, Chalice and the Orc King. POV character refers to them as such, and throughout the scene the narrative and the MCs' dialogue tags are Dagger, Chalice and the Orc King.

Then it isn't really third-person limited. How does the reader know these names when the alleged POV character does not? That just doesn't compute.

caw

Roxxsmom · Oct 19, 2017

In limited third, you're confined to using the names and information that the pov character knows. So if your pov character thinks a character's name is "Bob," even though the reader already knows that character as "Fred," the character would be referred to as Bob for that scene.

Will this confuse the reader? Possibly, and that may not be a bad thing if the reader isn't supposed to know that "Bob" is really "Fred" and is supposed to be drawn in to what the pov character thinks.

However, it is possible to make it clear to the reader what is really going on via framing, context, description and the voice and mannerisms of Bob/Fred in that scene.

talktidy · Oct 19, 2017

What your beta reader suggests would make me stop to scratch my head.

Your way is logical.

amergina · Oct 19, 2017

blacbird said:
Then it isn't really third-person limited. How does the reader know these names when the alleged POV character does not? That just doesn't compute.

caw

I think it's implied that though this is the minor character's first time meeting the MCs, it's not the readers (that is, it's not the first scene in the book). So the readers have knowledge of the MC's real names because there have been scenes in other POVs before this one that have introduced the characters to the readers. So that's how the readers know the names.

So it's quite possible for it to be third-person limited POV, and if so, Scott Kaelen should absolutely use the names the minor character believes the MCs are called in that scene.

blacbird · Oct 19, 2017

amergina said:
I think it's implied that though this is the minor character's first time meeting the MCs, it's not the readers (that is, it's not the first scene in the book). So the readers have knowledge of the MC's real names because there have been scenes in other POVs before this one that have introduced the characters to the readers. So that's how the readers know the names.

Okay, then that should work. It would have been nice to have that clarified in the OP.

caw

Bufty · Oct 20, 2017

The names are so similar - it's obvious who is who despite the name changes. If readers understand what's happening I can't see them having any issue with the proposed approach.

BethS · Oct 24, 2017

Scott Kaelen said:
Which of us is right?

You are. You're not writing in omniscient POV, which has different conventions. In third-limited, you use the names the POV character would know.

BethS · Oct 24, 2017

blacbird said:
Then it isn't really third-person limited. How does the reader know these names when the alleged POV character does not?

Presumably because the reader has been introduced to them in another scene with a different POV character.

blacbird · Oct 24, 2017

BethS said:
Presumably because the reader has been introduced to them in another scene with a different POV character.

Presumably, perhaps, but again, not clear from the OP.

caw

AW Admin · Oct 25, 2017

blacbird said:
Presumably, perhaps, but again, not clear from the OP.

caw

It seems pretty clear to me and to the others in the thread.

The scene is from later in the book, a book the reader has been reading up the point of the scene in question; as the OP notes:

Scott Kaelen said:
The reader knows that the MCs' names are Dagra, Jalis and Oriken, but the POV character has been told that their names are Dagger, Chalice and the Orc King. POV character refers to them as such, and throughout the scene the narrative and the MCs' dialogue tags are Dagger, Chalice and the Orc King.

Posting to make a pedantic point isn't being helpful; it is being obnoxious.

P.K. Torrens · Oct 27, 2017

I agree with the others - you are right Scott.

Figuring out how to make it less confusing for readers may need a few alpha/beta reads

Twick · Oct 31, 2017

I was able to figure out who was who while reading, and if the reader has met these characters before, it should be clear.

Poetical Gore · Oct 31, 2017

Scott Kaelen said:
Hi, all. I'd really appreciate some expert on an issue I'm having in my completed manuscript.

I've written an epic fantasy novel in third-person limited. There is a POV scene in the perspective of a secondary character, in which he meets the main characters for the first time.

The reader knows that the MCs' names are Dagra, Jalis and Oriken, but the POV character has been told that their names are Dagger, Chalice and the Orc King. POV character refers to them as such, and throughout the scene the narrative and the MCs' dialogue tags are Dagger, Chalice and the Orc King.

I've done it this way because, to the best of my knowledge, third-person limited dictates that we should write in what the scene character knows/thinks, not what the reader knows, regardless of whether they contradict one another.

My beta reader is suggesting that I should change the narrative mentions and dialogue tags of the three MCs to their actual names instead of the names presumed by the POV character. She says I should do this because the reader knows their real names.

My beta reader is also an author, but she writes only in omniscient so I'm hoping this is her lack of understanding of the mechanics of third-person limited, and that I can keep the presumed names in the narrative and dialogue tags.

Which of us is right?

For better clarification, here's a brief excerpt of the scene:

To the mods: I hope I've posted this in the right forum. Apologies if not. By all means move the post if it's better suited elsewhere.

You ever think about giving your Orcs Christian names?

A question about third-person limited POV name knowledge

Scott Kaelen

JDlugosz

TellMeAStory

Scott Kaelen

ironmikezero

practical experience, FTW

blacbird

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

talktidy

amergina

Pittsburgh Strong

blacbird

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

BethS

BethS

blacbird

AW Admin

P.K. Torrens

Saving up for a typewriter

Twick

Poetical Gore