A married woman. A younger man who thinks she's exquisite.

Marian Perera said:

Thank you. I had a rough day at work and I needed the laugh. Maybe that ending worked in the novel, but it sounds so hilariously melodramatic when summarized here.

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It was hilariously melodramatic, but it was a hilariously melodramatic romance, with the hero nursing the heroine through a bout of yellow fever (sans all the gory details of black vomit and so on) and kidnappings by pirates and all that. It was the early 80s when I read it, and more of them seemed to be along those lines back then. Or maybe it was a selection effect and those were the ones that I ran across as a teen.

I remember some of the details decades later (if not the title or author), so there is that.

I should add that I do have cheating in one of my romances - but it's the heroine being cheated on by her bf of three years, after 6 months of 'iffy' relationship where communication has been near nil. After that, her relationship is over. She doesn't jump straight into her next relationship of course but the cheating part is the end of something old/beginning of something new. Her ex also has reasons for being so messed up, which she learns about later when he finally tells her the truth. So I think he's a sympathetic character even though she will never get back with him after he cheats on her.

yoghurtelf said:

I should add that I do have cheating in one of my romances

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I wrote a historical romance which begins when the hero discovers the heroine can travel through time. He gets her to take him six years into the past, just before his fiancee killed herself. The fiancee told him she was pregnant with another man's child, so he was devastated and broke off the engagement. The fiancee committed suicide, and he's been struggling to deal with the guilt ever since.

But now that he's back in the past, he promises the fiancee he'll marry her anyway. The problem is that because he's tampered with the past (as opposed to observing it without changing it), the heroine can't return them both to the future. So he has to work with her to restore her ability.

He also spends time with his fiancee, but the past six years have changed him to the point where he realizes she's not in love with him. She's not even attracted to him (although when she says she'll be a faithful wife who accepts his physical needs, she means it). The right woman for him is the heroine, but there's no way he can abandon his fiancee. Not just because she might kill herself if he does, but because she's a kind, generous person who was manipulated and betrayed by the child's father.

And the story ends happily for all three of them - the hero, the heroine and the fiancee - because I wanted to subvert the Evil Other Woman trope.

That sounds like a good read Marian - and in the end the guy finds his "true love" (not the cheater) so the cheating part is okay in that regard.

Although I'm totally anti-cheaters in general, I did want to have my cheater in this novel be sympathetic in the end. But also to have it a clear point that my heroine was never, ever going to get back together with him. Oh, and the girl he cheats with is his ex from the distant past, and while she gets a bad rap from most of the other characters in the story, my heroine in the novel sees her over time as being more bewildered and worried than "evil".

Marian. Seriously. Can we swap brains? Just long enough for me to think up a plot like that one and for you to get fed up with leaving your mascara in the refrigerator or doing math by counting on your fingers?

That is to say, how do you come up with this stuff? Dang.

On the Smart Bitches, Trashy Books website there's a review of a book that includes adultery. It is not marketed as a romance, though from the sound of it the author intended it to be a novel with romantic elements, at least. The reviewer rated it a DNF. I had a hard time finishing even the review, let alone tackling the book itself:
http://smartbitchestrashybooks.com/reviews/spoonful-magic-irene-radford/

Hmmm ... I think me walking away "had me" at that trigger warning at the top! If that makes sense... ha.

I read the review, including spoilers, and I think this book can stay on my WNR shelf (will not read).

It seems a little unfair, though, to judge a book by romance rules when it isn't being published as a romance.

The review mentioned that she went into the book not expecting it to be a romance. From the summary of the plot, I inferred the author intended it to have romantic elements.

That's actually an interesting question--are the "rules" or expectations for a book with romantic elements the same as those for an actual romance?

The only rule I know for Romance is that it has a happy ending. But for any story, my rule is that I'm only going to read the book if I'm willing to spend page-time with the characters. If a character lies and cheats and continues to lie throughout the book, while professing True Love, then I'm not going to want to spend time with him.
I didn't expect the couple to have a happy ending, but I did expect some character growth, some change hopefully in a positive direction.

tl;dr -- if you are going to cheat on your partner and lie to them for years, please don't claim that you love them and that you're doing it because it's best for everyone.

From the review, I'm not sure where any element of romance was? I didn't see a sliver of it. But I would have to read the book I guess, to find out.

MerriTudor said:

Marian. Seriously. Can we swap brains? Just long enough for me to think up a plot like that one and for you to get fed up with leaving your mascara in the refrigerator or doing math by counting on your fingers?

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LOL, thanks!

I love to imagine crazy what-if scenarios but have them end happily. Romance meets The Twilight Zone.

Evelyn_Alexie said:

If a character lies and cheats and continues to lie throughout the book, while professing True Love, then I'm not going to want to spend time with him.

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I just double-checked the SBTB review for that novel, and the husband explains his adultery by saying "There is always a woman of age I can pick up in a bar who is very willing to share a one-night stand." Um. This makes me wonder why he felt the need to specify "of age". Does he want brownie points for not going after girls in high school?

Even in a romance, adultery in and of itself doesn't turn me off, but it needs to be handled carefully. My favorite novel is Gone with the Wind, and Rhett cheats on Scarlett with Belle Watling. However, this happens after Scarlett remains infatuated with Ashley to the point of locking Rhett out of her bedroom, so he remained a sympathetic character to me. I also thought it was interesting how he made a distinction between physical infidelity, which he didn't care about (as in, if his wife had wanted to scratch an itch and get it over with) and emotional infidelity, which mattered a lot to him (her devotion and loyalty constantly going to another man).

And Rhett went to a professional, he didn't make a move on Ashley's wife, or some other woman in his social circle. He could end it 'cleanly'.

frimble3 said:

And Rhett went to a professional, he didn't make a move on Ashley's wife, or some other woman in his social circle. He could end it 'cleanly'.

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Also interesting is that he didn't indulge in one-night stands with nameless women he picked up. He went to a woman who cared about him, and who he liked as well (the fact that she was a prostitute almost seemed secondary to that). I can sympathize with a man who goes to a woman because she gives him affection and comfort. It's much more difficult to like someone who indulges in one-night stands although there's a loving spouse waiting for them at home.

Yes, that's the problem with that book. It's the disconnect between their emotional states. The wife is emotionally distraught and the husband comes across as... well, complacent. "It's not always like that... I make sure she's of age and I use a condom." (ick. Why did he have to specify she's not a schoolgirl?) If he acknowledged the fact that his actions were distressing to her, even if he didn't think they were wrong, I might have had some respect for him. Instead, the man comes across as if he's on the verge of telling her not to bother her pretty little head about it.

The problem is, though, that this is from a non-review: the reviewer did not finish the book. There's no way of knowing what might have gone on in the parts the reviewer didn't read. I guess that kind of bugs me here--the passing judgment without all the facts.

Didn't the reviewer read the last chapter, and that's where some of the ickiness was? I personally think a DNF is a valid review, wherein the reviewer disliked the book so much they couldn't finish it.

Marissa D said:

That's actually an interesting question--are the "rules" or expectations for a book with romantic elements the same as those for an actual romance?

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No, of course not. Plenty of love stories don't end up with a happily ever after. Some of the greatest, in fact.

I think people are getting very hung up on "Romance" and forget this is a marketing category. All sorts of books have romantic elements in them. Thrillers. Satires. Mysteries. Scifi. "Women's fiction." Chicklit. Litfic. Good old general fiction, where the story doesn't necessarily fit into a genre category.

You're trying to give the purchaser an idea of what to expect in your book. "Romance" covers a specific set of expectations, and if your book doesn't cover them, the purchaser may feel as if they bought a can of peas and opened it to find tuna inside. Both are fine in general, but it wasn't what the buyer was looking for.

Just don't market the book as a romance. Market it as what it is.

Yes, I am aware it's a marketing category (I've been an RWA member for almost 15 years) but it's also about reader expectations. I heartily wish there were a better way to separate or otherwise delineate Romances from books containing love stories that don't necessarily have the HEA a Romance requires. But the RWA also includes a women's fiction chapter under its umbrella, and part of the definition that chapter uses mentions that their stories contain "romantic elements"--and I think it would be instructive to know if those "romantic elements" must follow the HEA rule, even if the "romantic elements" are aren't the main focus of the plot.

Have you contacted the RWA and asked them about it?

In any case, the RWA is just an association. They don't control what you can sell, or how. They do give guidance, though. "Romantic elements" wouldn't make it a romance in my view, but if you want to try, go ahead.

Perhaps the 'romantic element' in this story was at the very beginning when the wife was under the illusion everything was great? That's the only one i can think of..

I agree it's a bit unfair when the reader didn't finish the book - I'm one of those who won't post a review if I haven't finished the whole book. I have a "did not finish" shelf on GoodReads for those rare occasions when I don't push through with a read.

The reviewer didn't mention romantic elements. That was my inference, drawn from the last chapter. The reviewer skipped ahead and read the final chapter and then included a summary of it as a spoiler.
So look, if you're going to read the dratted book, please don't read below this sentence.
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La la la, I wonder what's on PBS tonight
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In the end, the heroine solves all the problems her family's been having since the Great Reveal about their magical powers. She and her husband have wild, incredible sex, and then she kicks him out and tells him that they need to start their relationship over again. She's going to see other people, as she was too young when they married, and then she wants to start over with him. A fresh start.

I drew the inference that this was intended to be romantic; she wants them to have a level playing field, as it were, and then try to make a relationship work.

Why she expects things to be any different when he hasn't shown any sign of caring that his actions have bothered her is another question, and one that ensures I'll not read the sequel(s) to find out.

SBTB *is* an extremely reputable, professional-level review site. Not only that, they have a keen understanding of their readership. They are very open when they (rarely) don't finish a book. They lay out all the reasons, which they did here, in detail. This statement is made within the first 50 words of the review (I know this was mentioned before, but I want to quote it):

First, a few points.

I am aware (and was aware when I started this book) that this is Not a Romance. I am not carrying into this review my romance-reader expectations on happy or optimistic endings.

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Amazon shows sales ranks as follows (emphasis mine, but keywords are chosen by the publisher or self-publisher, Penguin, in this case):

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #195,994 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
#130 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Humorous
#228 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Romantic
#491 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Humorous

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Romance readers don't only read romance. We are prolific readers, and often expand outward to other genres. If there is a book that is being marketed with romantic elements, it's probably a bigger draw for many of us. So I think it's entirely fair that SBTB warned their readers about a MMC who has extramarital sex, on the chance that they might expect something else, and that he really does some stuff that typical romance readers find off-putting. There are problematic elements of this book that they know their particular audience wouldn't like, and they, with full disclosure, posted a review. Whether or not to read the book, of course, is up to any individual reader. I loved the Sookie Stackhouse novels, but I can see how a review like this could be published.

As for Romance v. romantic, the Sookie novels are a pretty good case. Definitely not big R-romance, but a heckuva lot of romance readers I know have an opinion on Bill vs. Eric vs. Alcide vs. Sam and Sookie. There is plenty of crossover with romantic + X-genre. I don't think that's problematic. It's when big-R Roman(ce) is used that it gets sticky. When I read the words "romantic elements" I don't equate that with Romance (meeting the RWA definition) at all, but then, I'm only one reader, and one who's been indoctrinated with the terminology.

AlexP said:

Romance is the biggest genre. I read somewhere that older, married women make up most of the readership. Yet, most romances I read feature young, single women lusting after hunky, moody billionaires who are barely 30.

I'm wondering...

Wouldn't these women prefer to read about characters whose lives resonate with their own? How do you think a novel would fare that features a thirty- or forty-something woman who works hard all day, takes care of her kids, has an emotionally unavailable husband, and who meets a slightly younger, passionate artist/musician/writer who finds her to be an exquisite, irresistible muse?

Isn't that more of a mature and enduring female fantasy -- and one that often eludes older, married women?

Would it be a non-starter because of the adultery?

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I’m sooo late to this thread but hey, it pique my interest. I’m more into alternative lifestyle choices (I don’t just mean when people refer to sexual preferences, etc) so I’m always interested in romances where it’s not your typical young heroine looking to get knocked up on the first time by an older bachelor of the year hero. I would read a story of a 30-40 ish heroine ….I probably would lean towards buying a book where the heroine is this age.

However, I wouldn’t necessarily want to read about heroine with kids or even one yearning to have kids so I would probably lose some interest to purchase depending on how often in the story I’m reminded that the kids exist.

The professions the heroine and hero works is fine with me -most of romance feature a heroine working a mediocre job or some employment where she is overworked/underpaid, I wouldn’t be too bother if the tables are reverse.

I don’t particularly have any hang ups with adultery so I wouldn’t be turn off by a romance necessarily if it’s starts off with an affair but I would want a good reason as to why the heroine can’t get a divorce. Like the heroine isn't exceedingly wealthy or married to someone exceedingly wealthy so why stick around with someone she isn’t into? If somehow its agreed she has an open marriage, then that may work for me.

All in all, the only thing I would find remotely interesting about this premise (based on just this information) is the age of the heroine and I don’t think it’s enough to warrant me to purchase a book based on it. I won’t say there aren’t readers who wouldn’t find this premise interesting as others on the thread suggest but I would say, give all the facets you outline, I think it would be an uphill battle in the romance genre to get publish. But you may be the writer to break through and change the game, so I wish you much success trying.