Q about Characters

Questioner said:

Recently, I have found that my characters have kind of started to write themselves, and I'm a bit worried that might be a bad sign (is it?).

Click to expand...

No! I want to get out of the way as early as possible. Good news, not bad. Let 'em do and be what they want. You're subconscious is taking over, it's what you want, so it's a good thing, not bad.

Obviously you are always in control and can steer things back on track if they get really out of hand but always listen to your characters and be sensitive to their sudden unexpected expressions or actions/reactions.

They may prod you in a direction other than you first thought or intended but what a thrill it is on the occasions when you realize they know best and the direction they want to go in is even better than the one you thought they should be following.

I know, because without listening to my characters I doubt I would ever have reached a half-way point in my story, yet alone finished it.

Sounds like your characters are beginning to gain the confidence to step on stage and deliver...

I agree with the posters above. Characters should be real people and real people do things you wouldn't expect them to do. As for your other question (which is a really good question) I have no idea how you would know if a character is underdeveloped.There's some articles about it on google. Good question. I learned something.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&......1.1.34.heirloom-hp..20.32.2146.29qFmztUSbM

A good way to tell if a character is developed or not is to look if they are distinct in their dialog even if the speech tags aren't visible.

Characters speak differently the more fleshed out they are; and since every bit of knowledge about who they are informs their speech, I find it to be a good indicator. I wouldn't expect an underdeveloped character to have much impact in their dialog.

About the age of your characters (having a series of books written over a period of time). I would suggest looking into study or books about child or teen development-- for instance if your protagonist is 11 years old, then in the next book 17 years old, that character will have a whole bunch of new influences, and be at a different developmental stage, so that person (say the younger one, might be selfish, and sort of self centered because young people are like that), and due to the experiences (perhaps in the 1st book) be more altruistic, in the second. You have to also look at character "growth." Teenagers are influenced by many things, the biggest is their changing bodies, the fact that they are becoming much more independent etc. An adult has gone through all of this, so might think that the teenager is a bit foolish.

Sadly the above statement that characters should not do what you expect them to do is really not the case. Most people are fairly predictable. That is how psychiatrists can diagnose you by asking questions. The Unexpected part of the behavior (or plot) is being driven by internal logic which might not be obvious to the reader because you, the author keep some of the events shadowy or secret. A plot is just a choice of behaviors, in a way. You have to keep it fairly "normal" and expected. The "Unexpected" part comes from the external event (cause) transforming the inner behavior (effect).

I agree that most people are fairly predictable. They operate within set parameters and so, too, should characters; otherwise their actions end up reading like authorial fiat gone rogue.

Characters being "unpredictable,", from the writer's perspective, generally occurs because the writer has not consciously recognized all the elements of characterization and character development that have already been put in place or follow on from things that were deliberately put there, and is therefore surprised when they surface without having been consciously set up. This happens because the writer, after a lifetime of being around people and reading about characters, has internalized how they work and and extrapolates reasonable possibilities without necessarily working out every line of the progression on paper. It shouldn't be hard, when such a character does things or said things that seem to come out of nowhere, for the writer to figure out where they really come from and why, and to think through what that means for the story.

This is different from the scenario of characters doing truly unpredictable things because the writer is just randomly throwing things in a row because random writer fiat, without any cohesive characterization existing in the first place.

A character who never has any odd, "out of character" moments is probably much flatter and shallower than a real person. Nobody in real life is completely consistent, or completely predictable from an external perspective. A character who is so unpredictable that there's no sense of a coherent core, on the other hand, is poorly written and needs the writer to figure out a bit more carefully what's really going on with them.

benbenberi said:

A character who never has any odd, "out of character" moments is probably much flatter and shallower than a real person. Nobody in real life is completely consistent, or completely predictable from an external perspective. A character who is so unpredictable that there's no sense of a coherent core, on the other hand, is poorly written and needs the writer to figure out a bit more carefully what's really going on with them.

Click to expand...

Correct, of course. The "situation" is most likely unusual, or life-changing otherwise it would not be interesting enough to be a novel. The struggle between consistency and inconsistency creates tension and deeper characters. It is good to throw in some consistency as well, but everything the author does should be well reasoned and logical given the set of facts in the universe of the character and plot. It sounds like this is a first draft? I think once the author knows the complete story, tweaking the character could be possible.

Not to descend into philosophy, but determinism basically precludes people behaving out of character. Everything has a cause--therefore everything which occurs is just an effect.

I don't mean that to start a discussion (especially when I've worded it so badly) but just to provide context on my comment.

Maze Runner said:

Let 'em do and be what they want.

Click to expand...

Within reason. That’s how we got Hercule Piorot! Jumping genes and length formats is find if you don't have a commitment to something already, but is quite annoying if you must make it fit the planned space. And, if you have, for example, a character that's mad at you and refuses to run lines, it's hard to make progress.

Maze Runner said:

No! I want to get out of the way as early as possible. Good news, not bad. Let 'em do and be what they want. You're subconscious is taking over, it's what you want, so it's a good thing, not bad.

Click to expand...

The art in writing is to make people believe that you have gotten out of the way, while not getting out of the way at all. If you actually do "get out of the way," you will find a character with no impulse control, no training, no values. This may be good for an antagonist, or an unreliable narrator. Another question is "should you let your subconscious write a book?" It may end up a disorganized mess. Writing is about communicating and making "sense." I think that as a writer becomes more mature in the art (after many years of writing) it will "seem" that the characters are acting on their own. All your previous study, experience, exploration becomes automated. It is kind of like driving a car over a well-known route. There is no thinking involved, so you go by what you believe is "automation," because the process has been habitualized in the neural network of your brain.

I suppose this means I do not believe that characters are actually "alive." They seem to me to be just stand-ins for some inner or outer existence. I do not listen to "them," I listen to examples of what a real person might struggle with if put in that situation. I also cannot believe that I am such an experienced person that I would know how to do all things, and what kinds of decisions I should make. Just look at the writing of a 12 year old who is way out of her league-- writing about doctors doing surgery of something-- you really can see where the experience of a person has left the edge of the map. And you cannot expect the 12 year old's characters to know more than she does. They know exactly what she does, because they are her.

Of course, every character, every action, line of dialogue has to come from me. Would that my characters were truly acting and speaking all on their own. I don't plot, so I'd think that my process may be different from those that do. I can only describe what it feels like to me, and even that's not so easy. I need a character to serve the plot that is beginning to unfold. I see that character first, some blurry image of him/her anyway, and then they act or open their mouth and they become clearer. Then the plot unfolds and they must respond, and they become clearer yet. And, yes, they are a combination of what I've seen of this type of person in my life. The summation of experiences in the real world, people I've known or not, and probably characters I've read or watched on a screen. But they are real to me. By the second or third time they show up, I know who they are and how they will react to the new set of circumstances.

ETA: But I'm always open to surprises, based on a character's motivation, what they want or need. I may think I understand them, but if I look deeper, sometimes I find there's more to consider. I'm always trying to dance between entertaining and contrived, between believable and predictable. At least this is what I've got so far.

I don't know if they still sell these, but when I was a kid, there was a toy called a spirograph. It was a series of plastic gears with holes in them, and a larger gear to use as a base. You'd poke a pencil through one of the holes and start drawing, letting the gears guide you to make cool designs. I remember how amazed I was at the different paths the pencil would take, just by using a slightly different hole, and how hard it was to guess what the final design would look like before you actually drew it.

I've experienced something similar with my characters. You set everything up and put it in motion, thinking you know where it's going. Sometimes you predict accurately, but often it takes surprising twists and turns, and the final product looks totally different from what you predicted. In either case, the only way to see the final design is to let the pencil go where it wants to go.

Kalyke said:

Sadly the above statement that characters should not do what you expect them to do is really not the case. Most people are fairly predictable. That is how psychiatrists can diagnose you by asking questions. The Unexpected part of the behavior (or plot) is being driven by internal logic which might not be obvious to the reader because you, the author keep some of the events shadowy or secret. A plot is just a choice of behaviors, in a way. You have to keep it fairly "normal" and expected. The "Unexpected" part comes from the external event (cause) transforming the inner behavior (effect).

Click to expand...

I think this is directed at my comment. I suppose I should written, "Characters should be real people and real people do things you wouldn't expect them to do...sometimes.

Bill Cosby's victim predicted they were not going to get raped by him. People predicted their children were not going to get raped by their Catholic priest.

Yeah, people are predictable for the most part, but they still have a way of surprising you from time to time.

I predict a family value republican who's antigay will not be caught having sex with a man in his office.

http://www.newsweek.com/republican-family-values-state-legislator-quits-sex-man-713821

I predict an antigay senator will not be caught trying to have sex in an airport bathroom.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/27/craig.arrest/

I predict a governor of state is not going to fly to another country to have an affair.

https://www.thestate.com/news/special-reports/state-125/article47320885.html

I predict Eliot Spitzer, who made his career on busting prostitution rings, will not get caught having sex with prostitutes.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...pitzer-prostitute-was-22-year-old-singer.html

I predict John Edwards will not have an affair on his terminally ill wife.

I predict the police won't plant drugs on me.

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...2i10i30k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i21k1.0.41iEU9b7900


I predict the military won't experiment on me...

Tazlima said:

I don't know if they still sell these, but when I was a kid, there was a toy called a spirograph. It was a series of plastic gears with holes in them, and a larger gear to use as a base. You'd poke a pencil through one of the holes and start drawing, letting the gears guide you to make cool designs. I remember how amazed I was at the different paths the pencil would take, just by using a slightly different hole, and how hard it was to guess what the final design would look like before you actually drew it.

I've experienced something similar with my characters. You set everything up and put it in motion, thinking you know where it's going. Sometimes you predict accurately, but often it takes surprising twists and turns, and the final product looks totally different from what you predicted. In either case, the only way to see the final design is to let the pencil go where it wants to go.

Click to expand...

I remember Spirograph! And it's not a bad analogy.

BethS said:

I remember Spirograph! And it's not a bad analogy.

Click to expand...

My grandchildren bought one for the kids only a few weeks ago. My son showed them how to use it, then proudly sent me pictures of fantastic concentric coloured shapes.

Tazlima said:

I don't know if they still sell these, but when I was a kid, there was a toy called a spirograph.

Click to expand...

My wife owns a local retail toy store, and has sold Spirographs (the trademark item) for 25 years now. There are also a wide variety of similar products under other names. They remain very popular and are excellent craft toys for kids of many ages.

caw

BethS said:

I remember Spirograph! And it's not a bad analogy.

Click to expand...

For some, perhaps. I knew pretty much what it would look like before drawing, in terms of the overall diameter (closest that hole gets to the edge), and whether it will be a few loops or a densely packed grid of loops.

If you want to get a better grip of how characters may evolve--if we're talking about the big picture (change measured in years between the books in the series)--you could check out some basics of developmental psychology. Look at Piaget's or Erikson's development models (even Freud, if you want), for example.

More subtle, short-term changes will be entirely contextual. If you want to anchor your characters through their development (so they don't feel like completely different people from one page/book to the other), all you need is to have their motivations clear. Motivation (built through backstory and internal/external conflict) will generally guide their actions and reactions and give them consistency, even in the midst of changes, as every change of character must also clash in some way with the current motivation, which is where the internal drama comes in. I would advice to keep out-of-character moments sparse. Too much of this will unsettle the character in the reader's mind, and that disconnect can kill your story. Whenever the main motivation changes, it is because of a change in internal/external conflict (ie: MC figures out why his dad was mean to him as a child/ the villain's plans change).

Your characters are stand-ins for the reader, avatars that get the reader into the virtual world of your story. Let the characters breathe, play, and sniff the flowers on their own, but never let go of the leash. Readers need to know who they are hating/rooting for at all times, and why. My overly practical and specific opinion is: No matter how huge the change, always keep some major original aspect of the character more or less intact--specially with those soul-destroying 180* turns. It'll remind the reader why they empathised with that character to begin with, even if he/she is now despicable.

JDlugosz said:

For some, perhaps. I knew pretty much what it would look like before drawing, in terms of the overall diameter (closest that hole gets to the edge), and whether it will be a few loops or a densely packed grid of loops.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I think someone who's spatially(?) talented could likely see all that beforehand.

Ihe R.G. said:

keep some major original aspect of the character more or less intact--specially with those soul-destroying 180* turns. It'll remind the reader why they empathised with that character to begin with, even if he/she is now despicable.

Click to expand...

Senator Palpatine was such a nice man.

caw

BethS said:

Yeah, I think someone who's spatially(?) talented could likely see all that beforehand.

Click to expand...

Probably so. There's also the element of age differences. Children two or three years apart in age are liable to have very different experiences of the same toy.

Actually, this "spatially talented" element is a good addition to the analogy. Some writers, those folks who can write an outline and stick to it, may be able to do so in part because they're better at predicting the path characters would naturally take given their various characteristics and idiosyncrasies.

Star Wars is a good example. Who saw that little innocent child from Episode One pod racing becoming one of the biggest villains in the galaxy? Well, we all did because we knew Anakin was going to fall to the Dark Side, but would we have known that if it wasn't for a New Hope through Return of the Jedi. I like how it turned the Chosen One prophecy on its head as well. Characters should be their own real people and real people do not respond to certain events the same way as oneself might. I wouldn't become a drug kingpin because I was a high school chemistry teacher diagnosed with cancer trying to leave his family with some money, but that didn't stop Walter White, and it made for interesting television.

Your characters should be their own people, with their own goals, hopes and dreams. I wouldn't want my characters handling situations in the same fashion as I the writer would; that would make for some pretty bad reading as I live a banal existence. Yeah, it has to be believable, but it needs to be interesting. And people don't always do what you expect them to do. Your best friend, whom you trust more than anyone in the world, could start a nasty rumor behind your back. That's why it's fun to figure out so and so was the murderer when you was pretty sure it was the creepy butler, behaving suspiciously.

Tazlima said:

Probably so. There's also the element of age differences. Children two or three years apart in age are liable to have very different experiences of the same toy.

Actually, this "spatially talented" element is a good addition to the analogy. Some writers, those folks who can write an outline and stick to it, may be able to do so in part because they're better at predicting the path characters would naturally take given their various characteristics and idiosyncrasies.

Click to expand...

Hrm. Just for myself--I don't feel my characters ever get away from me or surprise me, much less dictate to me, but neither am I much of an outliner.

I know how I want them to react, the situation or emotion I want to create, and try to work out how to get there (I guess working from the char rather than the story.)

I dunno, it probably varies.