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Beta Feedback, Ignore or Incorporate?

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Felix

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After reshuffling the first few chapters of my WIP, I swapped the new first chapter with two beta readers that I connected with in a Facebook group.

The comments so far have been a mix of useful, constructive input and things like:

*Your characters should be women. Isn't it fun to think about?
*What is an RC Cola? No one knows what this is.
*What is a 5&10 store? No one knows what this is.
*Plastic can't acquire mildew and the color does not fade. (In response to statement that a small plastic coin bank left on a porch faded in the sun and grew mildew in the damp.)
*There's no such thing as a bar that is open for 14 hours a day.
*I've never heard of mainstream fiction. (Claims a Master's in literature.)

Most of this seems to be... outlier kind of feedback. But the practical question this raises for me is how much of this should I take to heart? If a book is set in 1963, in a place where RC Cola was the most-consumed brand, do I cater to a millennial demographic that's never heard of it? Does a lack of knowledge about an era, product, location throw off a reader that much?

How much weight do you give those types of reactions from beta readers? Do you disregard it until you hear it more than once?
 

Bufty

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Pretty trivial stuff. Treat it how you will.
 

The JoJo

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I wouldn't put too much weight on a single reader's opinion, unless it's something I was already thinking about myself, or it's something objective like a factual error or continuity snarl. With regards to RC Cola and 5&10 stores, though, perhaps you could consider if there is a non-intrusive way of explaining them to modern audiences who might not have heard of them? Certainly I think a cola drink would be pretty self-explanatory, but I'm not sure what a 5&10 store is myself.
 

BenPanced

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As far as the plastic bank goes, you might want to look into if it can mildew or not; most kinds will fade in the elements but it takes years of constant exposure. And I've been to bars that, depending on local blue laws and operating hours, are open for more than fourteen hours at a stretch, especially if they open early to cater to the lunchtime crowds by serving food. Everything else? I wouldn't worry about it.
 

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In your shoes, I'd research the plastic thing and the bar hours thing, and leave the rest. I grew up after the heyday of RC Cola and 5&10s, but (having been raised in the US) I'm quite familiar with both.

As for the "your characters should be women..." I've done some gender-swapping on secondary characters from time to time that's given me some interesting insights, but really, it's mostly made me recognize some of my own biases. Which is useful from a developing-as-a-writer standpoint, but for a specific story? I can't say as much changed, except one character became explicitly bisexual, which changed zero things plot-wise.

So that one can be a fun experiment, but if it doesn't speak to you, I wouldn't bother at all. This is your story​, and past potential factual errors, I think a sincere "thank you for your feedback" is all you need to give.
 

BethS

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How much weight do you give those types of reactions from beta readers? Do you disregard it until you hear it more than once?

Bottom line, be true to the story. In this case, I suppose that means disregarding most if not all of those comments.

Also, plastic can mildew and the color can fade. And fwiw, in my day it was known as the five-and-dime store or sometimes just the dime store.
 

S. Eli

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lmao don't bring millennials into this, even without recognizing the brand, plenty of people would just assume RC Cola is a cola

I would agree that it's all personal decisions and to disregard things that are essential to setting, time, etc My last MS had a lot of region specific things that got the "no one knows what this is" type of comments but its worth it for the people who know when/where your talking about to recognize "oh, I know this is from that time" / "i grew up with this"
 

Felix

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Oh, no scientific research is necessary. 41 years of human experience is all I really need.

All you have to do is drive through any town and you can find it. Big wheels. Tiny plastic kitches for kids. Lawn chairs. The cheaper stuff fades into pastel colors. Mildew grows. All while the kid is still in elementary school. The inspiration for the actual item in the chapter is sitting by a fence post in my parents' backyard. There are even ROWS of cleaners and paints in hardware stores designed to overcome such challenges. See:

Example:
PlasticPlayhouseBeforeAfter2.jpg


Most beta readers respond with feedback like... Evocative of towns I recognize; generates a mental picture of scenes that I know. And I can understand not knowing that if you live in a city or don't have access to such things.

The comments made me curious about the space- and time-related items that are there to paint the picture of the era. If a reader has never heard of RC Cola, do they skim past it or does it stop them in their tracks?

However, thinking through it, I answered my own question. If a book is set in a specific place and time, the setting needs to illustrate that. And if the reader wants to pick up a book that's not set in that particular place or time, then it's probably not for them. I read to be transported. So when I stumbled upon "sleeping policeman" in a novel, I looked it up and learned something new about speed bumps in England. I didn't expect the author to change their story or setting to suit my expectations. It's the setting and that's its material culture.

So if RC Cola and a Moonpie make my character feel more at home than sushi and a LaCroix in the summer of 1964, then that's just what he has to eat. :)
 

quicklime

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a beta is only as good as that beta is. Some are gold. Some are shit, and I am being generous giving them that, even.

It is your job to both try to pick the best betas you can, and to determine what's wheat, what's chaff, and what might actually be birdshit, crusted onto the chaff.

Note none of this is a slam on betas, I think they are great in theory. I also think that cops are great in theory though....that doesn't mean I'd give a 7 year-old, or a monkey, a badge. Not all betas are trained or skilled, and you have to learn to work with that as well as with the changes good betas suggest.
 

quicklime

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as for the time and RC question......you wouldn't be having an early American colonist using a cell phone because you were afraid millenials didn't understand what a courier was, or a letter and wax seal, etc., correct?
 

Maryn

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IMHO, every one of those beta remarks is to be ignored. To me, the only take-away from it is that you may choose to swiftly educate readers unfamiliar with the time and place what certain common things are, if they matter.

Maryn, whose childhood moves took her from the Five and Ten to the Five and Dime to the Dime Store
 

Felix

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a beta is only as good as that beta is. Some are gold. Some are shit, and I am being generous giving them that, even.

It is your job to both try to pick the best betas you can, and to determine what's wheat, what's chaff, and what might actually be birdshit, crusted onto the chaff.

Note none of this is a slam on betas, I think they are great in theory. I also think that cops are great in theory though....that doesn't mean I'd give a 7 year-old, or a monkey, a badge. Not all betas are trained or skilled, and you have to learn to work with that as well as with the changes good betas suggest.

Lol! Thank you for the laugh. Being new at this, I do have to say that the two beta readers I connected with here were so wonderful that they may have spoiled me for everyone else.

I do try to cull the value from even the outliers. Perhaps I should be better at just ignoring the crusty-chaff birdshit.
 

lizmonster

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IMHO, every one of those beta remarks is to be ignored.

Eh, that's a bit harsh, I think. Pretty sure it was someone famous (Gaiman, maybe?) who said readers can be very good at knowing when something's off, and terrible at knowing how the writer should fix it.

It's clear that this particular beta reader was a bit lost with the setting. Their suggestions to fix it seem rather off (to me), but their disorientation was real.

If OP chooses to make a change based on any of this, I'd focus on the apparent issue the reader had - couldn't get a handle on the setting - rather than the specific suggestions to fix it.

And yes, OP should absolutely feel free not to act on any of it. It's the writer's decision in the end, always. But the reader's experience is true for that reader, 100%.
 

Myrealana

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*Your characters should be women. Isn't it fun to think about?
*What is an RC Cola? No one knows what this is.
*What is a 5&10 store? No one knows what this is.
*Plastic can't acquire mildew and the color does not fade. (In response to statement that a small plastic coin bank left on a porch faded in the sun and grew mildew in the damp.)
*There's no such thing as a bar that is open for 14 hours a day.
*I've never heard of mainstream fiction. (Claims a Master's in literature.)
1) I switched half my secondary characters to women. I like the results. One of them upgraded herself to main cast for book 2. Isn't that fun? But in all seriousness, if your world is populated by men, take a look where you can bring women out of the background. Even in the 60s or earlier, women were more than just set dressing.
2/3) I know what an RC Cola is, and the 5&10. Even if I didn't, I could get the clues from context. If your context isn't there, then add a bit to bring in readers who might not recognize the name immediately. I didn't know what Moxie was, but when a character drank one, I understood it was a bottle of some kind of soda.
4/5) I call shenanigans. Plastic DOES fade, and DOES mildew, especially if it's wet. My son had this plastic whale that he used to play with in the tub, until I looked INSIDE the thing. EWWWWWWWWW!!!!!! I don't know about the 1960s, but the bar/pool hall in the small town where I grew up opened at 11:00am for lunch and stayed open until 2:00am Friday and Saturday nights. They did close at midnight Sun-Thu, so only 13 hours those days.
6) More shenanigans

Basically, this doesn't seem like useful feedback to me. The only thing I think you can take away from it is that, perhaps, your readers aren't getting enough from your context to make some of the details of your story believable. Make sure you're providing enough details in your setting so your reader feels like they're there, and they shouldn't care about the brand of cola or the colloquial name of a store.
 

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I like the advice to just take it as that one person's experience reading your work. The idea is to look at their experience and see if it can make your writing stronger. If you're getting the same comment from multiple people, that might be a sign something could use strengthening. This doesn't mean everyone needs to start drinking Dr. Pepper, but it might mean dropping in more contextual clues to establish setting any time you get to stuff that's not commonplace anymore. Someone mentioned moonpies up thread. I've *heard* of those, but have no idea what they are, except I'm pretty sure you eat them. So it would be helpful if an author wrote about them as significant to wherever they eat moonpies (clearly not where I'm from) if they quickly described one. You get the idea. Sure, I can google like everyone else. But when I'm reading, I don't want to have to stop and google every other thing.
 

Felix

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1) I switched half my secondary characters to women. I like the results. One of them upgraded herself to main cast for book 2. Isn't that fun? But in all seriousness, if your world is populated by men, take a look where you can bring women out of the background. Even in the 60s or earlier, women were more than just set dressing.
2/3) I know what an RC Cola is, and the 5&10. Even if I didn't, I could get the clues from context. If your context isn't there, then add a bit to bring in readers who might not recognize the name immediately. I didn't know what Moxie was, but when a character drank one, I understood it was a bottle of some kind of soda.
4/5) I call shenanigans. Plastic DOES fade, and DOES mildew, especially if it's wet. My son had this plastic whale that he used to play with in the tub, until I looked INSIDE the thing. EWWWWWWWWW!!!!!! I don't know about the 1960s, but the bar/pool hall in the small town where I grew up opened at 11:00am for lunch and stayed open until 2:00am Friday and Saturday nights. They did close at midnight Sun-Thu, so only 13 hours those days.
6) More shenanigans

Basically, this doesn't seem like useful feedback to me. The only thing I think you can take away from it is that, perhaps, your readers aren't getting enough from your context to make some of the details of your story believable. Make sure you're providing enough details in your setting so your reader feels like they're there, and they shouldn't care about the brand of cola or the colloquial name of a store.

Oh, do I ever agree. I've come to the conclusion that I should disregard it entirely and rely on other feedback. Too much to wade through.

So glad you looked inside that plastic plaything! Eww! I don't have a child but I would be horrified to let them play with that. They put everything in their mouths!

As for the 5&10, it's something like: Kids are darting out of the door of the 5&10, clutching candy and toys, bouncing off adults on the sidewalk like pinballs. Seemed pretty clear to me. Lol!

And bars here? Half of them open at 7 a.m. But it's a city.

Thanks for the feedback! There are multiple MCs in the story and there are just as many women as men. The whole story centers around the 40 year history of the owners of an old Jeep. It's one of the biggest brands in the world and its enthusiasts know that a woman owning it would be unrealistic. It was a huge marketing problem for them that resulted in a trim package that was poorly received. If I change it, not only does it require too much suspension of disbelief for the billions of people who know, but it destroys the rest of the story. Owner 1 must match the demographic and has to be a man. Women feature prominently later but the first owner must stay as he is. (And in case anyone thinks its a sexist thing... I can tell you it's not. I'm 100% woman - I co-own the car in question with my boyfriend - and I've been up to my elbows in its gizzards. I can rebuild a clean carburetor in less than half an hour. So it's a realistic choice, not a sexist one.)
 

MythMonger

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*What is an RC Cola? No one knows what this is.
*What is a 5&10 store? No one knows what this is.

If you wrote these terms this way in your manuscript, it might be confusion over the abbreviations.

If that's true, try writing out Royal Crown Cola the first time you mention it, and maybe Five and Dime department(?) store once.
 

Fruitbat

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I don't see a problem with the way you originally had any of those things but I also don't expect to use anywhere near each suggestion I get with a critique or beta read.

It truly is only one reader's opinions. There will always be a few people who don't understand something that the majority probably would, or don't find something believable even if you can prove that it is.

I think the specifics (RC Cola, five and dime) are not hard to figure out from the context and should definitely be kept because they help bring the era of the story to life.
 
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Dennis E. Taylor

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After reshuffling the first few chapters of my WIP, I swapped the new first chapter with two beta readers that I connected with in a Facebook group.

The comments so far have been a mix of useful, constructive input and things like:

*Your characters should be women. Isn't it fun to think about?

Did they say why? Did they have a good reason? Or was it just their personal preference?

*What is an RC Cola? No one knows what this is.
*What is a 5&10 store? No one knows what this is.

Funny, I don't remember being polled by this person to find out if I knew those terms. Turns out I do. BTW, if you think '5&10' is too obscure, you can also go with 'five and dime'.

*Plastic can't acquire mildew and the color does not fade. (In response to statement that a small plastic coin bank left on a porch faded in the sun and grew mildew in the damp.)

I've seen lots of faded and mildewed plastic items. But that's because they were painted rather than having the color impregnated in the plastic. consider it as an alternative.


*There's no such thing as a bar that is open for 14 hours a day.

Anywhere in the entire world? Probably verified in the same poll that checked on RC Cola and 5&10

*I've never heard of mainstream fiction. (Claims a Master's in literature.)

Therefore it doesn't exist.


Sorry, I'm jumping the snark shark, but if this is all coming from one person, I'd put them on your ignore list forthwith.

To answer the more general question, you engage beta readers with the understanding on both sides that there are no obligations in either side--no obligation on their part to give you the kind of feedback you want, and no obligation on your side to take their comments to heart and/or implement them. Beta readers can alert you to a problem you didn't see, or confirm a problem that you weren't sure was actually a problem. They can give you an outsider's view of pacing, storyline, characterization, etc. They can, in other words, be very valuable. They can also be a total waste of time, and it's on you to decide which is which.
 

JJ Litke

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If you mention a 5&10 store, you've got store in there to add context. It might not even matter past that if they know what kind of store that really is--it's a store, that's enough (and if they're just curious, that's perfectly googleable).

Prominence in the story makes a difference whether you need to explain it. If I were reading, and a character made a passing reference about going to the Fitzblartner store, I could just go along with that (huh, fitzblartner, don't know what that means but it's a store of some kind, so okay). On the other hand, if fitzblartners keep coming up--"a fitzblartner appeared up ahead; we watched until it disappeared around the corner"--but no description or explanation happens, then I'm going to get frustrated.

If I were aiming this story at a young audience who are more likely to not be familiar, and the store gets numerous mentions, I'd probably throw in a line to give context. "Of course nothing in the 5&10 actually costs only five or ten cents any more, though my dad swears it did when he was a kid." Or something. :)

I don't think RC Cola needs any explanation at all. You could have made up a cola name and people should be able to figure out in context that it's a brand.
 

Dave.C.Robinson

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My general rule is that when a beta tells you what bothered them, they're right; when they tell you how to fix it, they're wrong.

There are sometimes exceptions to the second part, but never to the first part.

It sounds like this beta was having difficulties connecting to the setting; that's worth looking into. How you address, and if you address, those difficulties is up to you.
 

Harlequin

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Hrm, I think there must be allowances for taste. Some betas will simply not like certain aspects; for example, I get turned off by long warmongering or politics sections, usually. I could give that opinion to a writer, and it wouldn't' be wrong, but neither should they necessarily act on it.
 

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How much weight do you give those types of reactions from beta readers? Do you disregard it until you hear it more than once?

It's more infuriating when you get stuff like that from a pro editor who doesn't actually know anything about your (non-fiction) subject area.

There are some feedback along those lines that is meaningful, as I recall. In particular, think about a world-wide audience who doesn't know your local idioms. You might even be using some niche terms and idioms yourself without realizing it; that is, being much narrower than country-wide as you suspect. Or age-group specific.

From random readers, beware of "Nobody knows what that is". It's a tagline of the meta-ignorant.

Does it throw off the reader? Depends... Royal Crown Cola? Well, it's some brand of Cola. If you made up a name like Smith's Local Boutique Cola, that truly nobody knew, would it still scan? If you said "Bob grabbed an RC and walked down to the shore." it could leave people (like Yankees) baffled.

Same with a five-and-dime store. That's a dated term and if you're not writing a period piece, you might change that to Dollar store (or Pound shop, as the case may be) or even the local "everything is a dollar" store, which is clear even if people are (mercifully) unaware of them.

Plastic does not serve as a medium for fungal growth. That's true. If there's crud on it, describe it more correctly perhaps.
 

indianroads

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Without knowing much about your story, I don't understand why you might change your characters to all women.

That said - I think we all need to be cautious about writing what is going on inside an opposite sex (to us) head. Maybe keep inside the heads of your sex characters, and just observe the opposite sex through that lens.

I never go inside a female characters head - I doubt I could find my way out again. When I write of women, I know what I want them to be feeling but write it from a male character's POV - THEN run it by my wife.

Regarding beta readers in general - as others have said, it's YOUR story. If the correction will lead to a better or more clear story, make the change - otherwise let it be.
 
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