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Past and Past Perfect — going full Inception

JDlugosz

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This goes beyond the issues discussed in the “Past and Present in the same chapter” thread.

In order to fit the narrative order nicely, not jump back and forth in time, I'm having a characters relate earlier events from a different POV by having them think back and reflect on it, while sitting quietly on a return flight in the novel's "present" (time 1). But this is just a framing mechanism and the chapters are each told in present tense just like the first time the day was shown (time 2).

Now, character B is remembering re-creating a childhood memory that took place on the same spot, with her current group playing the parts of the original memory's participants. At the time, she was trying to connect with the old memory better, and is remembering past events (time 3) while explaining in that (2) present.

Now, in her present (1) reverie, besides simply remembering (3) as an event happening in (2), sinking in to relive vividly (3) from (2) causes her (really in 1) to start to break out of the meditation semi-sleep state, but she sinks back in. Only now she finds she slip between the original and re-created events while they are played out, like flipping between watching two different performances of the same play. She can (present 1) muse over how she felt as a child, compared with how she perceives things now, and try to understand her current motivations more abstractly. Oh, and during (1) in a true reverie state she notices that (3) included her thinking about her own future, where she would be in life and who she would become. So now (1) can compare the remembered (2) against the imagined (2′), giving a past-past-perfect-future-imperfect something.

So, what tense where?

Just use present everywhere? But using different tenses makes it easy to intermix thoughts that occurred in the memory from the current reflection on those thoughts in the present. But I also find writing extended passages in past perfect to be kind of clunky; it will certainly make the readers connect less with the action being related.
 

Bufty

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I may be alone, but must confess to being a tad lost here.

It may be easier to answer this if you were to achieve the 50 qualifying general posts and then submit the relative scene in the SYW Forum.
 

Sonsofthepharaohs

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Yeah, you lost me in the second paragraph - my eyes glazed over and I just lost the will.

Seconding the suggestion to get to 50 posts and put up something for crit in SYW
 

veinglory

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General when you slip back in time you go back in tense (present to past, or past to past perfect). But you may only go back in tense for a few lines and then revert to the main tense.
 

JDlugosz

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I may be alone, but must confess to being a tad lost here.

It may be easier to answer this if you were to achieve the 50 qualifying general posts and then submit the relative scene in the SYW Forum.

I'm sure I will, once I've written it. But figuring out the tenses and other cues for shifting perception is something I want to figure out before trying.
 

Mark HJ

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I may be alone, but must confess to being a tad lost here.

Yeah, you lost me in the second paragraph - my eyes glazed over and I just lost the will.

You are somewhere between overthinking this and making it too complicated. As others have said, get your 50 posts and put something in SYW, but first I would suggest a re-think. Maybe the question will be clearer with an actual example but this all puts me in mind of some standard advice from my first boss in the IT business - if it's getting too complicated to follow, start again. OK, he was talking about coding, but the principle is the same - if you're getting this tangled, you possibly need to start again.

There was a reply to another thread here in the last week or two that sums it up (can't remember who said it, or what the thread was) : don't confuse the reader.

Look at what you are trying to do and make it simple, even if the underlying detail is complex - make it easy for the reader.

If I've got the gist, you have a multi-layered flashback. Wherever possible, I would relate all of it in your preferred writing tense, and do something to indicate the relative position of each level when it starts, and make it really simple and obvious.

I know I keep repeating make it simple, or make it easy, but I think that is the really important point.

Complexity can be fun, a convoluted plot intriguing, but you need to do all that in a way that the reader can enjoy without having a do what? moment over the presentation.
 

blacbird

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I'm sure I will, once I've written it. But figuring out the tenses and other cues for shifting perception is something I want to figure out before trying.

This sounds to me like over-planning. In order to figure out how you want to do this, you need to start writing it. It will be difficult to pre-plan every nuance of this, in the absence of actual narrative.

caw
 

Gileam

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I will chime in, your idea might work better in a movie or a visual form of media but for writing. It sounds way too confusing and might confuse the hades out of the reader.

On the other hand, it might prove a good challenge and establish you as a writer who can do this without confusing the reader.

Though it does sound like inception or better yet Clue with Tim Curry.

Now how many bullets were in that gun?
 

BethS

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Sorry, but I couldn't make sense of that.