Sexists Need Not Apply

Helix said:

This might be helpful. It's from the link in the OP.

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Well, I agree with James in that we're all influenced to some degree by everything we read. But it wouldn't be very helpful to make up a list of 50 or 60 writers who have "influenced" one.

There are certainly women authors who I appreciate, love, and in a few cases idolize. But they haven't necessarily directly influenced my writing.

In fact, the only two writers I could say have had a direct influence on my style have both been men. They are not necessarily writers who I think are "greatest," but there's something about their writing that specifically connected with me.

One is John D. McDonald, who was not particularly sexist for his time, but whose implicit sexist attitudes now makes me cringe. I can see how listing him as an influence would not sit well – but if were talking about writing, I see it as irrelevant.

The other is Christopher Isherwood. Of course, he was gay, so I'm not sure how that would figure into the mix.

Perhaps the best answer given on who has been your greatest influence would be that by Jeanette Winterson (a writer I greatly admire who has had zero influence on my own prose.) who said "myself."

She's an unusual and rather aggressively confident individual, at least as far as her creative process goes, but that might have been tongue in cheek.

rugcat said:

Well, I agree with James in that we're all influenced to some degree by everything we read. But it wouldn't be very helpful to make up a list of 50 or 60 writers who have "influenced" one.

There are certainly women authors who I appreciate, love, and in a few cases idolize. But they haven't necessarily directly influenced my writing.

In fact, the only two writers I could say have had a direct influence on my style have both been men. They are not necessarily writers who I think are "greatest," but there's something about their writing that specifically connected with me.

One is John D. McDonald, who was not particularly sexist for his time, but whose implicit sexist attitudes now makes me cringe. I can see how listing him as an influence would not sit well – but if were talking about writing, I see it as irrelevant.

The other is Christopher Isherwood. Of course, he was gay, so I'm not sure how that would figure into the mix.

Perhaps the best answer given on who has been your greatest influence would be that by Jeanette Winterson (a writer I greatly admire who has had zero influence on my own prose.) who said "myself."

She's an unusual and rather aggressively confident individual, at least as far as her creative process goes, but it might have been Tom in cheek.

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You know it's not actually compulsory to submit your work to Tramp Press.

Also, the bolded bit.

(I thought listing your influences in your cover letter was kind of like putting your IQ in your resume, anyway?)

Albedo said:

(I thought listing your influences in your cover letter was kind of like putting your IQ in your resume, anyway?)

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It is, but in this case apparently they ask for a list of influences. Any reasonably canny writer who actually wants to get published, on seeing that in the guidelines, will research what it is they're after, and come up with a list that matches.

Helix said:

You know it's not actually compulsory to submit your work to Tramp Press.

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I was under the impression we were having a rather interesting discussion about whether those guidelines are appropriate, necessary, a good or a bad idea, etc. Saying, "well nobody's making you submit to them, you know" is unhelpful, adds nothing to the discussion, and is snarky without even being clever.

Also, the bolded bit.

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What about it?

It strikes me that what they're actually asking is, can you follow directions and do you have the slightest clue what it is we publish? A 'no' answer to either of those would allow them to reject a work at the cover letter stage, saving them a great deal of time and bother.

James D. Macdonald said:

It strikes me that what they're actually asking is, can you follow directions and do you have the slightest clue what it is we publish? A 'no' answer to either of those would allow them to reject a work at the cover letter stage, saving them a great deal of time and bother.

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You may well be correct.

James D. Macdonald said:

Who in the world puts "I don't read books by women" in their cover letters?

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Yes. That is just bizarre.

James D. Macdonald said:

It strikes me that what they're actually asking is, can you follow directions and do you have the slightest clue what it is we publish? A 'no' answer to either of those would allow them to reject a work at the cover letter stage, saving them a great deal of time and bother.

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^^this because it's probably due to people sending the same, generic, query letter without taking even a few seconds to check what the actual publishers are about

Who even starts letters "dear Sirs" anyway? I went to school in the 1980s and we were taught to put "Dear Sir/Madam" if writing to someone whose name you don't know, and "Dear ...." (correct title and last name) if you know their name. Or "To whom it may concern" if it's not intended for any specific person.

"Dear Sirs" makes you sound like you're from the 1900s or a Dickens novel or something. I know some people still use it because in my day job I occasionally come across something addressed like that and wonder what time machine they stepped out of.

I get what they are doing. However, I do admit that nearly everyone I consider an influence in my life and work is a man. I don't know why that is. If I think of anyone I've ever identified with, I think of Eminem, David Bowie, Jack White, Kurt Cobain, William Burroughs...I don't think that makes me a sexist, but I do see how it would make me not a very good fit for this publisher.

It might also depend on what genre as well. If I'm writing horror, I'd say writers like Stephen King. If I'm writing about food, I'd say writers like Julia Child and Laurie Colwin.

RedRajah said:

It might also depend on what genre as well. If I'm writing horror, I'd say writers like Stephen King. If I'm writing about food, I'd say writers like Julia Child and Laurie Colwin.

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This is just what everyone is talking about. I love Stephen King for horror (I make no secret of it), but I love the work of Nancy Holder, who won the Bram Stoker award four times, equally well. There are dozens more chill-the-blood women horror writers.

And why women particularly for food?

mccardey said:

I'll bet you don't see colour, either....

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It's one thing I picked up from a few authors who don't describe their Hero/Heroine fully except for the features that are important to the story. It leaves the looks to the audience's imagination.

-cb

I feel like the "my influences are men because I like male authors, not because I'm sexist" is kind of the point of the exercise. Female voices have been so systematically downplayed or erased throughout history, and not just on publishing. I feel like we owe it to ourselves and to women to question our own ingrained biases. Of course we think of make voices first as our influences. Those are the voices that have been most magnified by our culture and deemed worthy of influencing people. But think of Mary Shelley, who shaped modern science fiction, and a lot of money horror. JK Rowling (who basically had to hide her gender) hugely influenced modern YA and fantasy. But people don't think of them because we've been primed not to. I think this press just wants people willing and ready to do the work to challenge this kind of subtle, but insidious discrimination head on, rather than people content with not being active misogynists.

And let's not forget that women of color get about twenty times the erasure. I personally have a long way to go in addressing that bias in myself.

James D. Macdonald said:

Who in the world puts "I don't read books by women" in their cover letters?

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efreysson said:

Yes. That is just bizarre.

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As a small example, may I direct you to the Romance and Women's Fiction forum, where a brief stroll through the threads will reveal the frequency of, say, for instance, things like, "I have written what appears to be a romance even though I don't read romance, have never read a romance, and I don't like romances, but this must be one because lurve. I am certain I am breaking new ground doing a thing in the mysterious romance genre that has never been done before. Or so I believe, but I've never read one. But I'm sure this is what I have written, and written better." Or something along those lines.

(Agents comment frequently on Twitter about queries that include statements denigrating genres/writers/pop culture. Sadly, it's, not uncommon for writers to voice their dislikes in query and cover letters.)

ElaineA said:

As a small example, may I direct you to the Romance and Women's Fiction forum, where a brief stroll through the threads will reveal the frequency of, say, for instance, things like, "I have written what appears to be a romance even though I don't read romance, have never read a romance, and I don't like romances, but this must be one because lurve. I am certain I am breaking new ground doing a thing in the mysterious romance genre that has never been done before. Or so I believe, but I've never read one. But I'm sure this is what I have written, and written better."

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Exactly. Any time I read a post saying something like, "I want to share my views about romance with women" or "Why aren't romance readers open to this?" it's a given that the poster hasn't read any romance.

And to them, this may well be a plus point. Perhaps they feel they're bringing something new to the genre because they've got a better background than writers who read romance.

rugcat said:

The other is Christopher Isherwood. Of course, he was gay, so I'm not sure how that would figure into the mix.

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Isherwood is also dead, but he is nonetheless considered a man.

Ari Meermans said:

And why women particularly for food?

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Men are so stringy . . .

I often answer questions about "influences" or "favorite" with some variant of Anonymous, because she's written so much that's excellent in so many genres.

This is of course a giant claim that is completely unprovable—but it often encourages people to think about Shakespeare's sisters, so's to speak.

James D. Macdonald said:

Who in the world puts "I don't read books by women" in their cover letters?

Anything other than 1) word count, 2) genre, 3) title of work, 4) your name and address, and 5) whether you've been previously published in a cover letter is ... just another reason to get rejected unread.

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Some agents and editors also like lists of comparable works or names of authors the writer considers to be a literary influences. Perhaps these editors stipulate this on their site. Regardless, they must be getting a lot of cover letters that mention male writers and not a single female one. Which is, in essence, saying either, "I don't read books by women," or at least, "The books I read by women aren't important enough for me to mention."

Consider how often one sees blogs, websites, or lists of recommended writers in many genres that have a mix of writers by gender where people are polled about their favorite writers, or are asked to list "must read" classics. Women are always terribly underrepresented when people are asked to list their favorite SFF writers, for instance.

As I understand, it's even worse with literary fiction, and with the classics. When I was in high school (admittedly decades ago), we didn't have a single novel by a woman on our reading list in four years of honors English. Not one.

That sort of omission can drive a lifetime of attitudes and biases.

I'll bet these editors are looking specifically for submissions by writers that break this kind of mold.

FWIW (I attempt to write SF and F), my greatest influences would probably be CJ Cherryh and Ursula K LeGuin, with a helping a Vonda McIntyre on the side. A couple of my favorite mainstream, non genre fiction, writers have been Atwood and Tan, though even they incorporate some speculative elements into their work.

Roxxsmom said:

Consider how often one sees blogs, websites, or lists of recommended writers in many genres that have a mix of writers by gender where people are polled about their favorite writers, or are asked to list "must read" classics. Women are always terribly underrepresented when people are asked to list their favorite SFF writers, for instance.

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Which is odd, because some of the most prolific writers in the genre are/were female. Mercedes Lackey and Andre Norton come to mind. Marion Zimmer Bradley. C.J. Cherryh. Etc.

I'd definitely list Mercedes Lackey as one of my influences...I can't even count how many of her books I devoured as a teenager. And Carolyn Ives Gilman. She hasn't written a lot and I've actually only read one of her books (Halfway Human) but it had a huge impact on me when I was younger.