Forget italics, we need punctuation for thoughts

No italics or fancy punctuation would be my vote.


Well, that was just irresponsible, John thought. No one should be running around blindfolded in a rake factory.

and

What a prick! "I'm sure he's nice."

ETA: Bloody italicising quote function.

LucidCrux said:

This would be nice, but sometimes it can be very hard to avoid reader confusion. Sort of like that weird trend some authors are following where they don't use quotation marks so that "it makes the reader pay attention." The more you use inner thoughts, the more likely a problem is to pop up. Forcing no punctuation or italics would limit an author's freedom, and only resorting to italics when it is really needed if it isn't used elsewhere just seems sloppy.

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If you have to come up with some alternative punctuation to offset the problem caused, then that is a limit to the "author's freedom". All it does is shift the punctuation from external speech to internal speech.

The simple solution, then, is to use speech marks to indicate speech. Also to trust the reader. Readers catch on quite quickly.

I've seen this technique before in Sci-Fi novels where you get into the mind of an alien or advanced Artificial Intelligence. Nothing is stopping you from using it in your own works, just make sure the reader is told early what the punctuation means.

I don't have italics for thoughts--you can have them in and write around them. Like you I despise how it looks/reads. Long sections in italics, I skip in books. Don't care how crucial it is, I can't cope with the eyedeath.*

Symbols I'd be wary of.

Too Like the Lightning uses a variety of symbols to convey different spoken languages and that's slightly confusing, having read through it.


*She says, having put in a couple long sections of italics... but they're wholly optional paragraphs, not plot crucial, and also I fully accept my hypocrisy.

Personally, I would find symbols like = to be way more distracting and difficult to parse than italics. That said, it's not uncommon for there to be special symbols used to distinguish mind speech (telepathy) from spoken speech. so if you must use them to set off thoughts, try for something simpler, such as a single dash.

I would also note that much of what you've used as examples of thoughts really should just be part of the narrative. Just keep the tense consistent, rather than shifting them into present tense. Although in your case, you shifted everything into present tense, even though it started in past tense ("he thought").

BethS said:

I would also note that much of what you've used as examples of thoughts really should just be part of the narrative. Just keep the tense consistent, rather than shifting them into present tense. Although in your case, you shifted everything into present tense, even though it started in past tense ("he thought").

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This. Once you've established POV, you don't need italics or thought tags. The reader is in the character's head.

BethS said:

I would also note that much of what you've used as examples of thoughts really should just be part of the narrative. Just keep the tense consistent, rather than shifting them into present tense. Although in your case, you shifted everything into present tense, even though it started in past tense ("he thought").

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Marlys said:

BethS said:

I would also note that much of what you've used as examples of thoughts really should just be part of the narrative. Just keep the tense consistent, rather than shifting them into present tense. Although in your case, you shifted everything into present tense, even though it started in past tense ("he thought").

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This. Once you've established POV, you don't need italics or thought tags. The reader is in the character's head.

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Maryn said:

That's my approach as well, Marlys. (Ha-ha, I started typing my own name.) If I'm doing POV correctly, all thought, memories, fears, observations, etc. are clearly those of the POV character and I don't need italics or "he thoughts" or anything else.

Maryn, who has many other weaknesses as a writer

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I agree whole-heartedly.

I'll flat-out tell you, as an avid reader I think the author who uses "he thought" or any other thought tag an amateur. I can't help it; I've seen POV done too well too many times not to think that.

Helix said:

No italics or fancy punctuation would be my vote.


Well, that was just irresponsible, John thought. No one should be running around blindfolded in a rake factory.

and

What a prick! "I'm sure he's nice."

ETA: Bloody italicising quote function.

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Depending on your POV, the 'John thought' might not be necessary... if you're in the MC's head you can just leave it out.

Oh damn, I hate italics. He smiled. "Yeah sure, that looks nice."

Agree re earlier POV comments. If the POV and the narrative are clear, to me there's no need to specifically identify POV character thoughts at all.

In my novels involving American Sign Language, I use italics with hyphens in ASL's sometimes unique order to indicate this silent language:

Too-many-footprints, she signed. Sort-them-first-we-must.

My point is if your story is interesting and well-written, readers will learn whatever system you employ with consistency and restraint.

Ari Meermans said:

I'll flat-out tell you, as an avid reader I think the author who uses "he thought" or any other thought tag an amateur. I can't help it; I've seen POV done too well too many times not to think that.

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I like the italics - both for thoughts and emphasis - and loath "he thought" and it's ilk.

In the modern world of ebooks and web pages, perhaps the legibility issue ought to be tackled by the display, not the writer/publisher. So much of the basic advice on prepping for an ebook is to keep the formatting as minimal as possible and leave the ebook software to lay it out the way it chooses - pressure the tech manufacturers to give options on how to represent italics by changing font size or weight to suit the user.

(I am ignoring the fact that with age my eyesight is declining and italics getting harder to read...)

Yeah, I'm okay with italics for the most part—even though my eyesight is declining, too—just don't tell me the character had a thought by using thought tags. Writer's Relief, which I just found by googling, deals with character thoughts in several ways. My personal preference is for the first example, but, as I said, I'm okay with italics.

Harlequin said:

I don't have italics for thoughts--you can have them in and write around them. Like you I despise how it looks/reads. Long sections in italics, I skip in books. Don't care how crucial it is, I can't cope with the eyedeath.

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Agreed, especially the bolded above. Short bits, I can tolerate, and I actually find them an effective way of communicating thought, in contrast to speech. But even these should be sparse.

One of the problems, to me, is that too many aspiring writers get wrapped up in the thought-world of their characters, and that alone bogs down narrative. If it shows up in long paragraphs of italics, it makes a bad moon rise in my reading experience.

caw

I've had thoughts mingled with "active" speech when I've run into this situation, and italics makes the best separator from spoken quotation, according to readers of my work. During an extended telepathic conversation, I transitioned to regular quoting without any negative feedback from the readers. One reader even said that once he understood it was telepathic, he didn't notice the formatting.

Kind of a special situation, but that's my experience with it.

Being properly in the first person narrator's head does not always eliminate the need to identify internal monologue. I'm writing first person, past tense narration. I use present tense italicized thoughts the same way dialogue is present tense with past tense tags. I prefer italics to thought tags as I think it reads more smoothly.

In addition my narrator talks out loud to herself. I want the reader to know when she is thinking and when she is talking.

I listen to a lot of audio books when I'm driving. One cannot see italics in audio books. That can be a tad annoying with some books more than others. But it's never ruined a book for me.

If you look at style books like The Chicago Manual of Style, internal monologue is not noted as a proper use of italics. On the other hand, Janet Burroway, et al, in her style books, Writing Fiction: A Guide to Narrative Craft (multiple editions), she does note italics is one way to identify internal monologue.

Given the debates I've seen over this issue, it seems to me italicizing thoughts is a changing convention where perhaps it was less acceptable when writers sent typed manuscripts to publishers with underlining used to indicate italics. But now that most of us write on word processors with fonts easily changed, italicizing thoughts is no problem.

Resistance to changing conventions might be the biggest problem here rather than difficulty reading italicized text. I learned to italicize internal monologue first and never gave it a second thought. I'm not going to say everyone who prefers tags is old school, or that no one has trouble reading italics, but I do wonder if the way one first learned to write internal monologue has the biggest influence on people's preference.

Trying to introduce yet another convention is not going to be happen with a forum consensus. As has been said, write it, hope it doesn't turn an agent or publisher off and maybe in a few decades it will catch on.

That said, I do dislike long paragraphs of italicized text which I've seen used when portraying silent communication between characters in fantasy works. I think writing ESP communication is ripe for a new convention to develop.

In all things, moderation.

If thirty is old school, I'm going to cry. And it will be your fault

I don't think I have learned to write; I am in the process of learning. I was near sighted from very young, though, and did find italics of any kind a pain. Perhaps, despite having had laser surgery in my twenties, that association still carries over.

I did specify long passages though. For example, I recently beta read a ms which had entire chapters in italics. Or people who insist on putting pages of flashbacks in italics. Just no, please. Also, prologues in italics--so much no.

For writing, to me, it would all be in italics or none, since everything expressed (except in distant or omni) is from within the char. Some people seem to have no trouble drawing a line between what thoughts are more direct and what are more abstract, but I can't seem to reliably pinpoint it.

"thought" is perfectly adequate as a tag, as "said" is, on occasion (all things in moderation, as IR and others have said.)

It's also useful for recalling and reminising, especially recent events. And other things I'm sure.

It's not like I burn books with italicised thoughts--just a preference to not have them, and I do think you can make do without, if you wish. Not everyone does wish. I don't think they guarantee interiority, though; I've seen them used to offer up utterly banal internal dialogue.