DNA/RNA question for fantasy story

rosehips

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Hi guys,
I'm writing a fantasy story where sorcerers have created shape shifters (for example, a female character who can shift into an octopus-human hybrid shape for work needed to be done underwater). What I'm puzzling over is whether this shifter would have special RNA/DNA and how being a shifter would impact their genes. Ultimately my question (I'm still at the world-building stage) is whether shifters in this world must be created using human subjects or if they can be born from shifter parents. I know some will say, "It's a fantasy story with magic, do what you want" but at this point I don't have any needs wrt to the story and I always like to ground some aspects of my fantasy stories in science. So... what makes sense? Does a body's shape shifter abilities need to impact RNA, in order for the person to retain abilities over time? I have a limited understanding of RNA, but it's involved in cell replication, right? And if so, does that mean that it would make sense for the magic to have altered the subject's DNA? And if that's the case, would being a shifter be inheritable?

Thanks for any thoughts!
 

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Shape shifting cannot be reconciled with current biology. But you might want to look at the genetics of insects that undergo metamorphosis.

How Did Insect Metamorphosis Evolve?

Thanks!

So are you saying that there's no way to reason how the magical endowment of the ability to shape shift would or would not impact the human body and its genes?
 

blacbird

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So are you saying that there's no way to reason how the magical endowment of the ability to shape shift would or would not impact the human body and its genes?


There's no way to reason how magic works, period. Fantasy readers are predisposed to accept magical stuff as part of the narrative genre. You really don't need to explain it in "realistic" terms. Shape-shifters are an old trope in Fantasy-related fiction, and of fairly common usage. They were around long before DNA was known about. Surely what happens in your story is more important to the reader than is some pseudo-scientific (and patently fictional) "explanation" of how the magic works.

caw
 

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If it actually could be done, it wouldn't be magic. So there's no point in getting uselessly knotted up trying for a scientific explanation. It's "spiritual forces." It's "mana." It's "the force." If you try to make it "midichlorians," it's no longer magic.

There's no known way being a body-shifter affects the genes, because we have no known body-shifters to study. If you want to throw in a bit of technobabble that there's some genetic mutation that makes it possible, go right ahead. Worked for the X-men. But you can't point to an issue of "Nature" and say that someone's written a full study on how this would work, because as far as we *really* know, it can't.
 

Cyia

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Hi guys,
I'm writing a fantasy story where sorcerers have created shape shifters (for example, a female character who can shift into an octopus-human hybrid shape for work needed to be done underwater). What I'm puzzling over is whether this shifter would have special RNA/DNA and how being a shifter would impact their genes. Ultimately my question (I'm still at the world-building stage) is whether shifters in this world must be created using human subjects or if they can be born from shifter parents. I know some will say, "It's a fantasy story with magic, do what you want" but at this point I don't have any needs wrt to the story and I always like to ground some aspects of my fantasy stories in science. So... what makes sense? Does a body's shape shifter abilities need to impact RNA, in order for the person to retain abilities over time? I have a limited understanding of RNA, but it's involved in cell replication, right? And if so, does that mean that it would make sense for the magic to have altered the subject's DNA? And if that's the case, would being a shifter be inheritable?

Thanks for any thoughts!


In very simplest terms, think of DNA like a zipper, with two sides of teeth that fit together. These teeth are the base pairs that a specific sequence of DNA for a specific organism. During replication, that zipper opens up and RNA replaces the teeth on one side, operating as transfer molecules.

The problem with the situation you're describing is that it can't be "a gene" that accomplishes what you're wanting. Very, very technically traits can be suppressed or expressed depending on the alleles present. (They can actually "turn on" the latent "teeth" in a chicken, for example. They cannot then turn them off.)

A hand-wavy way of working around your predicament might be to claim that your shifters have been affected by magic in such a way that they've got 2 different kinds of RNA in their bodies - one for the human, and one for the other creature. Magic gives them the ability to choose which RNA transfers their DNA, but again, it's got a few drawbacks. The time it would take to shift this way wouldn't be anywhere close to instantaneous, except - again - by magic.

Also consider that if you're shifting via DNA, the condition the person returns to once they become human again might not be the condition they were in before they shifted into their animal form. Certain wounds that aren't based in genetics could disappear - or be maintained in the animal form. The person would in extreme pain due to the complete shift in their musculature and skeletal systems. In the case of an octopus, you're talking about extra hearts that would have to grow and die off with each shift. Extra limbs would be the same. The brain would be so vastly different between forms that the person would likely go insane.
 

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Should point out that if gross changes (body-shifting) is occurring, I would have no problem believing that genetic changes (microchanges) also occurred. However, if the body returned to its original state, it would be unclear why the genes couldn't return as well. However, since the original idea is one that's never been seen, why not go with it? I wouldn't be upset or confused if you built a world where shifting is connected to the genetic code, and repeated shifts led to permanent genetic (and thus heritable) changes.
 

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There was some attempts made in the Shadowrun universe to vaguely add some scientific basis to DNA and RNA and magic. And I feel like a lot of the Urban Fantasy genre does a treatment of some sort of genetic-yet-magical thing.

Having thought this through lately, I'm kinda leaning towards the notion that, unless your reader is given some sort of counter-element that does not involve genetics (magical powers being random by nature, being dipped by your mother into a magical spring, et al) that the notion of genetics is quite deeply ingrained in our thought process, so one would assume some connection between shifter parents and shifter children in the same way as you would assume red haired parents to have red-haired children.

In that sense, a presentation matching reality or not is potentially more useful than the mechanism thereof. If a magic user creates the shifter and it's intensely biological, as Cyia describes, then it's going to probably be inherited. Whereas if it's a purely magical thing that a magic user has caused to happen, then your reader's brain might not go the biological route and they wouldn't expect as much for the shifter to be inheritable.
 

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Given how completely impossible a "shapeshifter" is within our current understanding of genetics & molecular biology, any attempt to rationalize & explain it in terms of current genetic/biological understanding is going to come across at best as bogus bullshit to anyone who has the least acquaintance with the science, and bafflegab gibberish to anyone who doesn't.

Far better to accept that you're dealing with a condition that has no current scientific explanation and no recognizable genetic component, and just get on with the fantasy/magical/worldbuilding aspects that you can tailor to the needs of your story and explain (or not explain) in terms you can define and elaborate on as you see fit. If you want shapeshifting to be inherited, it is. If not, not. Your story, your rules! Just, leave real-world science out of the picture. It only gets in the way and doesn't make the story better.
 
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DrDoc

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Instead of relying on biology, perhaps you could use a quantum mechanical 'explanation" where 'thought' overcomes matter and causes the shape shifting. Of course, this requires a powerful mind but would not require heritage. Because 'thought' is expended, it requires concentration and effort, which would diminish over time, making it only temporary. The Dr Who version would be like his Universal Pass, where the observer(s) only are affected.
 

Cyia

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Animporphs!

I knew there was a big series that used "genetic shifting," but the title bounced out of my head. It was for kids, and involved aliens instead of magic, but they handled it by having the kids affected by an alien artifact that then allowed them to absorb and store the DNA of any animal they touched, like a file in a computer. When they wanted to shift into another creature, they chose the DNA they wanted to use, then changed back to human between shifts.

So basically, the suspension bridge to disbelief is the use of "the alien artifact," the "magic words," the "fountain full of elf water" or whatever to explain the gaps in plausibility. Just keep it consistent. Make rules for how your hand-waving works, and then follow them.
 

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With the exception of reptiles, birds and mammals, the majority of animals on earth, vertebrate and invertebrate, go through at least one metamorphosis. They begin with one body shape and then, at some point in their lives, convert to another. For some, such as tadpoles turning into frogs and toads, it's gradual, while they are free-moving. For others, such as caterpillars turning into butterflies and moths, it happens while in a self-manufactured capsule and during a period of dormancy. For still others, it is incomplete.

One theory for the appearance of metamorphosis in animal evolution, or at least in some groups, is that there was a merger of two organisms, or one organism picked up the genome of another, and the two body forms represent the forms of the animal's two ancestral species, with each set of genes coming into sequential play in the course of the animal's life. It would seem to me that this could be adapted for an explanation of shape shifters, although a heady dose of fantasy would have to be included to account for rapidity of metamorphosis. There's probably a genetic reason why no animal known to science ever metamorphoses back to the previous form, i.e., it only works one way one time, but it would seem at least theoretically possible since metamorphosis does not destroy the genes that produced the original form only inactivates them somehow.

Also, it's very clear that metamorphosis is under hormonal control, so it's easy to work with that and postulate that any of a number of situation triggering hormone release could be what generates shape shifting.
 

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I need a clarification of terminology. I generally take the term "shape-shifting" to mean something that happens fast, as is commonly the case in Fantasy/SF movies. Like how a werewolf alters when the full moon appears. "Metamorphosis", in the factual biological sense, is a slow process; think a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. What process are we being asked about here?

caw
 

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I need a clarification of terminology. I generally take the term "shape-shifting" to mean something that happens fast, as is commonly the case in Fantasy/SF movies. Like how a werewolf alters when the full moon appears. "Metamorphosis", in the factual biological sense, is a slow process; think a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. What process are we being asked about here?

caw

The characters altered by magic are shape shifters, like werewolves. Though in the case of the octo-people, I'm taking into consideration what PP said above about how different the organisms are, and how there would be too many issues with multiple hearts and such different brains, so in the case of octo-people, they will likely shift from fully human to a human-octopus hybrid, like a mermaid, where the top remains human and the bottom is tentacles. I've been reading and watching videos about octopi and they're just fascinating, so I'm planning to try to use as much as I can from what I've learned there.

But there will be other shifters, like human to hyena, and that's going to be more like your traditional quick shift from human to animal and back.
 

The JoJo

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Animporphs!

I knew there was a big series that used "genetic shifting," but the title bounced out of my head. It was for kids, and involved aliens instead of magic, but they handled it by having the kids affected by an alien artifact that then allowed them to absorb and store the DNA of any animal they touched, like a file in a computer. When they wanted to shift into another creature, they chose the DNA they wanted to use, then changed back to human between shifts.

So basically, the suspension bridge to disbelief is the use of "the alien artifact," the "magic words," the "fountain full of elf water" or whatever to explain the gaps in plausibility. Just keep it consistent. Make rules for how your hand-waving works, and then follow them.

Ha, I remember that series from when I was a kid. Good times.

But yeah, I agree with Cyia. Talking as someone with a heavy science background, I actually prefer a hand-wave to a scientific explanation that makes no sense, as I can roll with the former like any other type of magic in a fantasy story, whereas the latter just breaks my suspension of disbelief. Granted, most readers will have a much patchier knowledge of the subject at hand.
 

GeorgeK

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Octopi pretty much are already shape shifters, being able to alter color, texture, appear to change the number of limbs and even size sort of like filling and emptying a water balloon. I'd accept a story where a new species, perhaps genetically manipulated could mimic people. They're also already pretty smart. The biggest issue would be if they needed to breathe air for an extended period and do they need to speak? Maybe they could sign and pretend to be deaf?
 
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neandermagnon

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Given how completely impossible a "shapeshifter" is within our current understanding of genetics & molecular biology, any attempt to rationalize & explain it in terms of current genetic/biological understanding is going to come across at best as bogus bullshit to anyone who has the least acquaintance with the science, and bafflegab gibberish to anyone who doesn't.

Far better to accept that you're dealing with a condition that has no current scientific explanation and no recognizable genetic component, and just get on with the fantasy/magical/worldbuilding aspects that you can tailor to the needs of your story and explain (or not explain) in terms you can define and elaborate on as you see fit. If you want shapeshifting to be inherited, it is. If not, not. Your story, your rules! Just, leave real-world science out of the picture. It only gets in the way and doesn't make the story better.

This is my opinion too.

----

Once your body's built, it's built. The stuff it's made of can't magically change to something else any more than the bricks of a brick house can change to being wooden planks because someone switched the architect's plans for a brick house with plans for a wooden house after the house was built.

If someone were to replace all your DNA with wolf DNA right now (it's not possible to do that as you'd have to transplant the DNA in every single cell, but just say you could do that...), you wouldn't turn into a wolf. Your body's already built so you'd continue to look like a human. Exactly what would happen and how long you'd survive in a human body whose metabolic functioning is now that of a wolf I have no idea. Incompatibility of enzymes at the cellular level could result in dying in a matter of minutes. Or it could be that due to both being mammals there's enough compatibility to survive just fine... I don't know. But it's only the new stuff that gets made that will be wolf rather than human. Nothing that's already there will change. I don't even know if you'd end up growing fur like a wolf because your hair follicles were already formed before your DNA got switched. Even new stuff that grows won't be completely wolf-like if it relies on stuff that should've already been there, but wasn't, because you're a human not a wolf. You would start to become slightly different though (assuming you survive) as your new cells created from wolf DNA will slowly replace human cells that have died. Your overall shape would still be human, but you probably would start to have some wolf traits which are likely to get more pronounced as you get older (assuming, again, that you survive that long). You'd have to eat wolf food because your digestive enzymes would be wolf ones, although the structure of your digestive system would remain human as it was already there.

Also bear in mind that DNA can't code for an adult animal to be created as an adult. It codes for the animal to be be created starting with the egg and sperm* and it has to go through the whole of its development before it can be an adult. And for humans, that includes learning an entire human culture as a child in order to be able to function and survive as an adult. You can't skip directly to the adult form of an animal (and even if you could, in animals that have to learn how to survive during infancy/childhood, you'd have an adult with the knowledge level of a newborn baby).

*or whatever's appropriate for the start of its life cycle

For me, explaining magic in fantasy novels with attempts at being scientific totally spoils it. Firstly, because bad science makes me feel sad. Secondly, because it breaks the spell of the magic. Magic is great in books because it's magic. Magic has to have rules that govern it otherwise every story problem could be instantly fixed with magic and there'd be no story, but you don't need to have a scientific explanation. If you want to explain the magic, best have some system/rules by which the magic works in your story's universe and have someone explain those (like what magic can and can't do, who can do it, how they learn it or acquire the ability, etc).

Personally, I wouldn't even mind if you had some gene for shapeshifting that follows mendalian genetics/inheritance patterns (punnet squares and the like), but that's about as far as I'd recommend going with the explanation. The gene codes for the ability to shapeshift. You learn how to do it as a child and what you learn/experience determines who/what you shapeshift into. End of.
 
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Kitkitdizzi

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There's probably a genetic reason why no animal known to science ever metamorphoses back to the previous form, i.e., it only works one way one time, but it would seem at least theoretically possible since metamorphosis does not destroy the genes that produced the original form only inactivates them somehow.

Well, there is Turritopsis dohrnii, the immortal jellyfish, that can revert back to its polyp stage. It uses cell transdifferentiation to alter the differentiated state of its adult somatic cells into another type of cell without dedifferentiating (like into stem cells) first.

I could believe shifters having the genetic code for the animal they shift into, with some magical epigenetics that activates those genes and magical cell reprogramming to turned their adult cells from one to another. It would be inheritable, though then you get into the question of what happens if a shifter has offspring with a non-shifter, can the offspring shift with only one copy of the shifting genes? What happens if two shifters with different animals have offspring?

This is a fun thought experiment. Perhaps it's coded onto the X chromosome. A male shifter's daughter would be a shifter, his son would not be. A female shifter's daughter or son would have a 50/50 chance of inheritance. If a daughter (who has two X chromosomes, males have only one) gets it from both her mother and father, it's lethal.
 

Victor Douglas

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If it's not too late to add my two cents, the main issue is that you want shapeshifting to be inheritable, right (otherwise why bother with DNA, etc.)? Is it a requirement that the shapeshifter actually become a genuine version of whatever they appear to shift to, or could they just be using some sort of extremely effective mimicry? Because in that case you don't have to combine different strains of DNA/RNA at all, you just need a DNA code for a shapeshifter. Maybe the only things that changes is the macro structure, and the underlying cellular biology remains the same? Perhaps the magicians accomplished this by adding some element to human DNA such that the resulting individual (who grows up from child to adult normally) has the ability to morph their skeletal and musculature to resemble a pre-determined organism of some kind. This additional element doesn't have to be DNA from the animal whose form they are mimicing if it's just the outward appearance and functionality of the second form the magicians were interested in. That is, if you want to create a type of human who can function somewhat like an octopus underwater, you don't need to add octopi DNA, you need an entirely new DNA coding for "shift body shape to a many tentacled, flexible creature."

I think if you go that route, it would involve fewer complications (and a lot less research).