Herbs and plants in medieval times used medically

Lishana

Registered
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Hi, my story is set in an alternate Earth, where the geography is basically Earth years and years ago, when there were only two continents; Gondwana and Laurasia.
The genre is fantasy, so there is magic, but the Earth is still the Earth, and the flora and fauna found on the continents should be consistent with what we have here in the real world (discounting extinct species I'm researching at the moment). There aren't any fantasy sub-human species, or dragons of anything like that, just humans. The era I've set is medieval, and continental drift is so subtle, the continents have barely moved in over two thousand years.
Islands are scattered between and around the continents, and the ice caps are considered non-continents.

I've set it so Characters A and B are in Gondwana, and Character A needs a steady supply of herbs, which are either the drugs, or can be processed into drugs, that are farmed from Laurasia.
Character A needs to keep character B, who is his wife, in a drugged up state. He needs her blood specifically (for various reasons I will not mention), which was why he married her. He convinced her she was ill by slipping drug X in her food, making her nauseous, dizzy, dehydrated, and forced to bed rest. He then confines her and puts her on drug Y, which makes her hazy and weak.
She should still be able to function to the point of eating if being fed, being aware when she's bathed, needs to go to the restroom and when she's being changed. She's able to register character A's words when he tells her she is still ill and he needs her to keep drinking her "medicine".
She also should be able to form some sentences, like agreeing when character A says he needs to take her blood to test it, albeit with difficulty pushing out the words on her part. I need her in a sort of... Unfocused state where there's a haze or shroud over her mind that makes her unable to fight back or think for herself. It should also be non-lethal, and I'm aware of drug resistance, so I'm having him steadily up the dosage over time whenever he notices her becoming more alert.

If anyone could name some plants or fruits or anything of the kind that has the same effects as drug X and Y, with Y having more... Asian origins, I would be very grateful.

Please advise, any help is highly appreciated.
Thank you.
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
Aside from the medieval herbs issue (where Google is your friend), you have some more basic problems: If you are invoking "Earth is still Earth" for this setting, and using Laurasia and Gondwana, you need to understand some basic geology. Those two large continents existed back in Permian/Triassic time, ~250 MILLION years ago. Continental movement is significant only on a scale of millions of years, not thousands. Again, Google.

I'd suggest that you abandon the "Earth is still Earth" concept. You're writing fantasy, make it a fantasy world to fit your story's needs. Same with the herbs. I wouldn't try to shoehorn awkward realistic setting elements into such a story.

Ursula LeGuin, a great genius at the Fantasy form, made her own world in her Earthsea series, and many other writers have worked similarly.

caw
 

Lishana

Registered
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Thanks for the advice, I'll take more liberties on my fantasy world then, although I would still like to ground most of the drugs based on real world ones. I'd just need some pointers in the right directions, some names of herbs or mushroom and the like, that would possibly be, or are close enough to be drug X and Y.

I've been researching herbs for a while, and I either find something too lethal (hemlock being the most obvious) or basically tea-able. Googling symptoms will only net me 'it's cancer' type results or diseases, and specifically googling them with herbs or drugs won't work either.
 

Tazlima

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Messages
3,042
Reaction score
1,494
If you're looking for plants that make people nauseaus, dizzy, weak, etc, you're not looking for medicinal plants... you're looking for poisonous ones, albeit mildly poisonous.

In that case, this should be a good starting point. The poison control center also has good information on basically every kind of plant imaginable at all different levels of exposure (I used to work for a vet, and we had to call poison control occasionally when a pet ate a random houseplant that we weren't familiar with. The depth of their knowledge never ceased to amaze me).

If you want the poisoned character to be somewhat familiar with the contents of his/her "medicine," there are also plants that can be medicinal in small doses and poisonous in larger doses. Digitalis, (aka foxglove) for example, is used to treat heart problems (the drug digoxin was first isolated from digitalis) while digitalis/digoxin poisoning has symptoms similar to what you describe in the OP.

However, it would probably be easier for the character to simply lie about the contents of the medication.

Also, to your point about plants being tea-able or deadly, a lot of that depends on dosage. A tiny dose of a deadly plant, or a too-concentrated tea may provide the level of sickness you're looking for.
 
Last edited:

Bolero

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
1,080
Reaction score
106
Location
UK
You could also try reading Ellis Peter's Brother Cadfael books for early medieval herbs - the main character is a herbalist monk. The herbs are just there in snippets, but would also give you a feel for methodology and equipment.
 

Lishana

Registered
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Thank you for the names and references, Tazlima and Bolero! I'll try to get in contact with poison control if they don't mind me asking questions for my book.

I was thinking of making drug Y a mixture of toxins and a sedative, or maybe if I don't find what I'm looking for, I should try taking some creative license regarding the poisons, taking blacbird's advice into consideration.
 

autumnleaf

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
1,133
Reaction score
215
Location
small rainy island
Nicholas Culpeper's 1652 book The Complete Herbal might be a useful resource for historical beliefs about herbs (although science has advanced since then, so don't use it for medical advice). Available online at Project Gutenberg.

There are also some more modern books on herbs, such as Breverton's Complete Herbal.
 

Lishana

Registered
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Thank you for your recommendation autumnleaf, I'll definitely look into it!
 

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,079
Reaction score
10,775
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
Gondwanaland and Laurasia were very different in terms of flora and fauna (we're talking earlier age of dinosaurs here). It is generally thought that flowering plants (the source of most herbal remedies used in the middle ages) didn't evolve until the Cretaceous, long after the continents separated and were nearly in their current positions. There is some new evidence that they may have appeared earlier, but the species (and even the genera and families) of most plants used in historical times didn't appear until much later. Some of the earliest flowering plants were ginkgos, however.
 

GregFH

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Messages
132
Reaction score
25
Location
NYC
Laurasia and Gondwana were the two major land masses twice during earth history, before and after the formation of Pangaea, or until the Carboniferous/Mississippian and beginning again in the Jurassic. Laurasia is sometimes called Euramerica, and pre-Pangaea Laurasia and Gondwana are sometimes called Proto-Laurasia and Proto-Gondwana. Also, during chunks of Gondwana's existence part of it lay over the South Pole and there was an ice cap covering parts of Gondwana. There are some pretty good maps on line where you can see what geologists think things looked like in good detail.
This site has the continents labeled: http://www.scotese.com/earth.htm
Maps at these sites aren't still maintained as up to date, but are still pretty close to current thinking: http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~rcb7/global_history.html; http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~rcb7/globehighres.html; http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~rcb7/mollglobe.html; http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~rcb7/rect_globe.html
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
Some of the earliest flowering plants were ginkgos, however.

Nope. Ginkgos are not flowering plants. They are gymnosperms, related more closely to cycads and conifers than to angiosperms. They do not bear flowers, or reproduce in the way angiosperms do. Among the eariest angiosperms that are still extant are magnolias and figs (Ficus). The earliest clear evidence of angiospermous plants is in Barremian time (~125 million years ago), in the later part of the Early Cretaceous.

caw
 

Lishana

Registered
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Thank you GregFH, Roxxsmom and blacbird, I have been having trouble with general sense of how the flora and geography should look like, and your links have helped me a lot, with of course, a bit of creative license smoothing out the kinks.
 

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,079
Reaction score
10,775
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
Nope. Ginkgos are not flowering plants. They are gymnosperms, related more closely to cycads and conifers than to angiosperms.

You're right. I feel like a chump, because we have some on campus, and yes, they have little cones.

Regardless, they are a plant used for medicinal purposes that would have been available in the early Cretaceous.

I agree with BB, though, that it might make more sense to simply create a secondary world that has whatever flora and fauna you need for your story. If you want a planet with just two continents, then you can create one.
 
Last edited:

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
Regardless, they are a plant used for medicinal purposes that would have been available in the early Cretaceous.

Yeah, but not in "medieval" times, whatever that means in the context of this discussion. Ginkgos were long believed to have gone extinct at the end of Cretaceous time, 65 million years ago, along with dinosaurs, pterosaurs, mososaurs, ammonites and a lot of other life forms. Living ginkgos were only discovered in a remote area of China in the 20th century. They constitute one of the great "living fossil" discoveries of modern times.

They have been widely planted, worldwide, in cities, because they do amazingly well in conditions of city pollution. They are everywhere in Beijing, which has about the worst air pollution of any city in the world (I've been there).

caw
 
Last edited:

Helix

socially distancing
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
11,695
Reaction score
12,079
Location
Atherton Tablelands
Website
snailseyeview.medium.com
If you want to avoid the problems associated with there being no/few angiosperms in the late Palaeozoic/early Mesozoic, go for fungi instread.
 

Lishana

Registered
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Thanks for the fungi recommendation Helix, I admit I haven't really been taking fungi into account, I'll have to do more research.
I'm aware of things like pollen allergy, but would fungi spores have the same triggering effect with seasonal change?
 

Helix

socially distancing
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
11,695
Reaction score
12,079
Location
Atherton Tablelands
Website
snailseyeview.medium.com
Mycotoxins are wild.

I can't think of anything triggered specifically by the change in seasons, but moulds, which shed spores all the time, can cause a lot of issues.
 

DrDoc

Ex everything; trying something new
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
177
Reaction score
45
Location
4,000 miles from the center of the Earth.
There were no plants with "flowers" as we would recognize on Gondwanaland. There were no "fruits" as we recognize the term either. Back then was the time of the 'seed ferns' and, perhaps, the beginnings of the Ginkos. Plant evolution still had a long way to go from back then. Think: clubmoss, "ferns", cycads. Since it's a fantasy, you can "spruce" it up.
 

autumnleaf

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
1,133
Reaction score
215
Location
small rainy island
Malorie Backman's "Noughts and Crosses" series is based on an alternative reality where Pangaea still exists. I don't think she went into too much detail about plants and animals though.

Mind you, lots of things would be different if continental drift had happened differently. Humans evolved in specific conditions in Africa, so if that continent didn't exist then probably neither would we. But that's definitely overthinking things....
 

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
2,800
Reaction score
843
Location
Connecticut
There were no plants with "flowers" as we would recognize on Gondwanaland. There were no "fruits" as we recognize the term either. Back then was the time of the 'seed ferns' and, perhaps, the beginnings of the Ginkos. Plant evolution still had a long way to go from back then. Think: clubmoss, "ferns", cycads. Since it's a fantasy, you can "spruce" it up.

And no flowering plants includes no grass, nor any member of the grass family (which includes all edible grains -- wheat, rice, corn are all grasses). The earliest evidence of grasses existing is approx. 125 million years ago. On Gondwana and Laurasia? No grasses.

This will be a problem for your human populations, because the foundation of human diet is flowering plants, and for most humans the staple food is a grass. In their absence, what are your people going to eat?

If you're determined to set your story on Gondwana & Laurentia, you're really dealing with a wholly alien environment -- none of the plants and animals of the modern Earth existed, or even anything very similar, and the fundamental ecologies were completely different from anything that has existed in the last few geological epochs. Are you really sure that's what you need for your story?
 

Lishana

Registered
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Thank you DrDoc for your insights.
No benbenberl, that's not what I needed for my story.

I needed my geography to be based on two massive continents, and I mainly took references from Gondwana and Laurasia, I was thinking of maybe making it so that the continental drifts could have clustered landmasses into two supercontinents, but I needed some sort of idea on what geographical structures, including the flora and fauna should look like, hence my question regarding herbs and flora in this post.

Should I have set it up so that Earth has matured into having flowering plants and ecosystems like us, with a similar age as ours, but a continental drift that formed two supercontinents instead?
 
Last edited:

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
Should I have set it up so that Earth has matured into having flowering plants and ecosystems like us, with a similar age as ours, but a continental drift that formed two supercontinents instead?

Sure, you could do this. You could do a lot of other things, too. I still think you're straining too hard to jam your fantasy landscape into a geologically historical earth setting. Have two big continents as far apart or close together as you need them to be for your story, and invent names for them, in the same way many fantasy writers (e.g., again, LeGuin) commonly do.

Then write your story. That's ultimately what matters.

caw
 

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
2,800
Reaction score
843
Location
Connecticut
Right -- there's absolutely no reason your fantasy world can't have 2 big continents on it, with whatever flora & fauna you please. It's your story -- you get to make up the rules!

But if you call them by names out of Earth's geological past, you bring along all the associated features of the era in which they existed (which happens to include nothing that would be familiar to a human community, which won't exist for another 175 million years). It's a constraint of history. If you have Gondwana, you don't get birds and flowers too. If you want birds and flowers, you don't get Earth's Gondwana or Laurasia.

Just make up your own world and have it the way you want!

(Don't feel constrained by any idea that Gondwana/Laurasia represent a unique moment in Earth's past. They're well-known because they eventually became Pangaea -- but before Pangaea there were at least 3 previous supercontinents (Pannotia, Rodinia, Nuna) that also assembled out of tectonic parts & then broke up, so there would have been numerous opportunities for a 2-continent scenario to exist. Possibly more... the state of affairs before Nuna is not well understood.)

On your world, which is yours, you can have any number of continents you please, in any configuration you like. If you want to stick to scientific plausibility, design your continents and then consult with someone knowledgable about making mountains, currents & weather patterns realistic. (That's where fantasy writers often fall down. Tolkien was a very bad model!)
 

M Louise

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
291
Reaction score
86
Location
Southern hemisphere
If you take Gondwanaland as a continent not historically time-specific for reasons mentioned above, but including Africa, you might want to think about succulents, roots and tubers that grow in more arid places. You could think about silene (the dreaming herb) or hoodia (used to induce stamina and sleeplessness before long journeys). Bitter small leaves brewed for restorative teas, bulbinella stems used to soothe burns or insect bites, Aloe vera as a healing gel.

You might also look at Australian plants.