Ghosts of Franco: Catalonian Vote for Independence

Xelebes · Sep 15, 2017

Catalonia is holding another vote for independence. The campaign begins today. Catalonia has done this before and has got majority yes votes before. But they have never been accepted by the government in Madrid. This time, the government in Madrid is being more assertive to quell this vote. They fear that this time might be the last time before the governors and mayors of Catalonia make a move to consolidate and form the state of Catalonia, independent from Spain. They fear that this time might result in violence.

So summons from Madrid's attorney general to the mayors have gone out. The mayors could face eight years in jail for supporting this vote.

http://www.france24.com/en/20170914-catalonia-independence-referendum-mayors-arrest-hospitalet-spain

efreysson · Sep 15, 2017

Hm. I happened to be in Barcelona during the big downtown rally the night before the previous vote. It's interesting to observe this whole thing.

blacbird · Sep 15, 2017

There are multifold issues involved here, not all of which are historical. Currently, Catalonia is the most prosperous region of Spain, and Barcelona its tourist-rich second city. The nation of Spain, as a current whole, is an economic problem if great magnitude, and the Catalans would prefer not to be attached to that lamprey which is draining their economic resources. The native language, Catalan, is a recognized official language of the EU, and is the one spoken by the most populous minority of any such. Signs in streets and shops in Barcelona feature Catalan first, in big font, with Spanish below, in smaller. There's a lot going on there, and it all bears watching.

caw

Xelebes · Sep 20, 2017

Catalonian self-government has been effectively ended by the Madrid government with the arrests of the Catalonian government officials. Mass protests are building up as of 3 hours ago.

http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/civil-guard-catalan-government-referendum_193362_102.html

Teinz · Sep 20, 2017

This could turn ugly fast. Bit scared overhere.

efreysson · Sep 20, 2017

Yeah. Arrests are going to calm things down, and convince Catalans that they should answer to Spanish authorities. /sarcasm

Xelebes · Sep 21, 2017

Looks like the events in Catalonia are not being covered by the Canadian press. The only new article to pushed out was from LaPresse. Nothing from PostMedia, BellMedia, Corus Media or CBC.

Diana Hignutt · Sep 28, 2017

I was in Barcelona on Monday. From a tourist perspective, apart from the Catalan flags and "Si" flags, you would have no idea there were any problems there. A beautiful city, btw.

RightHoJeeves · Sep 28, 2017

Diana Hignutt said:
I was in Barcelona on Monday. From a tourist perspective, apart from the Catalan flags and "Si" flags, you would have no idea there were any problems there. A beautiful city, btw.

I was there a few weeks ago, and I thought the same thing.

While I can understand Catalonia's independence aspirations for cultural reasons (I understand it without necessarily agreeing), is the economic argument that great? Sure, Spain is currently in economic trouble and Catalonia is prosperous. But will it be that way in 30 years? What if Michigan had attempted to secede at the height of the car making industry? It'd be even more screwed now.

This occurs to me because my state, Western Australia, has a secessionist flare up every 20 or 30 years, although these days it's more like a literal handful of politicians who want press. The argument is we don't get our fair share of tax revenue back, even though our mining industry makes us a huge contributor. That's an idiotic and short sighted argument to me, because yes, we are currently contributing more than we receive, but that wasn't always the case, and it probably won't be the case very soon.

Xelebes · Sep 29, 2017

Economic reasons have a tendency to not be much of a measure of whether some region decides to be a nation. Cultural and political reasons are much more of a concern. Economic reasons are pointed out by those who do not wish to separate.

blacbird · Sep 29, 2017

Xelebes said:
Economic reasons have a tendency to not be much of a measure of whether some region decides to be a nation. Cultural and political reasons are much more of a concern. Economic reasons are pointed out by those who do not wish to separate.

As several stark cases-in-point, most of the U.S. states where this kind of rhetoric has raised its voice the loudest are those which receive far more largess from the FedGov than they return in revenues. Notable among these is my state, Alaska.

caw

kneedeepinthedoomed · Sep 29, 2017

I'm torn about the whole thing. On one hand, voting is democratic and a good thing. On the other, the secessionists are creating a whole lot of problems for everybody, not just themselves. The EU should not split into a hundred mini-states. Where's the big problem in being an autonomous region of Spain? They have massive, massive rights and benefits as a minority. They aren't oppressed. They already have democracy, money, and the right to speak their language etc.

What they are trying to do is a mini-Brexit. They are trying to destroy things in order to get what they want. And when I see pictures of demonstrations, it's always 99% teenagers.

This is extreme nationalism, to the point of secessionism, and we don't exactly need more of that. What happens there is the business of the entire EU, not just the people of Barcelona. They are being a tad selfish.

Xelebes · Sep 30, 2017

kneedeep, Catalonia has a long history of seeking independence from Castille. Catalonia was okay with joining Aragon (Aragon spoke the same language as Catalonia) in the 15th century but have never settled themselves with the marriage between Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabelle of Castille. Between then and now, there have been several violent revolts (Guerra dels Segadors, War of the Spanish Succession, revolts during the Napoleonic Wars, Spanish Civil War.) This conflict between Castille and Aragon have ultimately cost the Spanish Empire as the threat of revolt had always meant that Catalonia would receive favour over the other regions, including the colonies. The favours include restricting industrial development in Mexico, Cuba, Venezuela and Colombia so that industrial development could center around Catalonia. And since the Spanish crown has always vociferously fought to keep Catalonia over other regions, seeing it as a most crucial component for the legitimacy for the crown, have conceded their colonies war-by-war. So it is messy.

All I'm hoping for is the lack of blood spillt.

RedRajah · Oct 1, 2017

[h=1]Catalonia firefighters form human shield to protect referendum voters from riot police[/h]

Teinz · Oct 1, 2017

Guardian livefeed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...pendence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live

Xelebes · Oct 1, 2017

Numbers coming in suggest that the Yes will get somewhere around 90% of the votes submitted. Last numbers I have seen are as of around 40% of the available voter pool. 15% of the voting pool has been disrupted by the Madrid government, as per the Catalan government.

Diana Hignutt · Oct 2, 2017

Well, if I were Catalan and I wasn't for independence from Spain, I would have voted for independence after the brutal, fascist bullshit the Spanish government pulled.

Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says the Spanish region has won the right to statehood following a contentious referendum that was marred by violence.
He said the door was open to a unilateral declaration of independence after Catalan officials said voters had backed secession with a 42.3% turnout.
Spain's government has warned it could suspend Catalan autonomy.
The constitutional court banned the vote and almost 900 people were hurt as police tried to stop it going ahead.
Officers from the national police and paramilitary Civil Guard seized ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said Catalans had been fooled into taking part in an illegal vote.
More than 2.2 million people were reported to have voted, according to Catalan authorities, out of 5.3 million registered voters. Just under 90% of those who voted backed independence, they said.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41463719

efreysson · Oct 2, 2017

Diana Hignutt said:
Well, if I were Catalan and I wasn't for independence from Spain, I would have voted for independence after the brutal, fascist bullshit the Spanish government pulled.

Those were my thoughts exactly. They have ESCALATED things, infuriated the pro-independence people, and earned them sympathy. How anyone thought this level of violence was a good idea is beyond me.

Teinz · Oct 2, 2017

I don't understand Rajoy, either. If the referendum was unconstitutional, why actively prohibit people from voting, with all the violence that came with it. Why not just let people vote, declate the referendum a farce and continue with business as usual.

oneblindmouse · Oct 4, 2017

There's a lot of fake news out there on BBC and Spanish press. It's a complicated situation. The Spanish Constitution does not contemplate any region breaking away, so until the Government amends the Constitution no progress is possible. The Catalans who want independence are about 2 million, out of a total of 7 million Catalans. The intimidation endured by pro-union Catalans is seldom mentioned in the press, but it is very violent and frightening.

RightHoJeeves · Oct 4, 2017

Teinz said:
I don't understand Rajoy, either. If the referendum was unconstitutional, why actively prohibit people from voting, with all the violence that came with it. Why not just let people vote, declate the referendum a farce and continue with business as usual.

Right? Choosing the violent route would only make Catalonia look like martyrs.

The JoJo · Oct 5, 2017

oneblindmouse said:
There's a lot of fake news out there on BBC and Spanish press. It's a complicated situation. The Spanish Constitution does not contemplate any region breaking away, so until the Government amends the Constitution no progress is possible. The Catalans who want independence are about 2 million, out of a total of 7 million Catalans. The intimidation endured by pro-union Catalans is seldom mentioned in the press, but it is very violent and frightening.

The thing is, if it's only a minority of Catalans who want independence, why not just let them hold a vote? They'll be defeated a la Scotland in 2014, and life would carry on as before. You could even make the vote technically non-binding, so that you only then have to amend the constitution if it actually passes.

blacbird · Oct 5, 2017

oneblindmouse said:
The Catalans who want independence are about 2 million, out of a total of 7 million Catalans.

Which figure comes from . . . where? Does that represent the total pro-separation vote in the referendum? Which vote was seriously suppressed by physical intimidation from the Madrid government. Or are their polls suggesting this?

For clarity, I do not have a pro or con opinion on the Catalan separation issue.

caw

oneblindmouse · Oct 30, 2017

The JoJo said:
The thing is, if it's only a minority of Catalans who want independence, why not just let them hold a vote? They'll be defeated a la Scotland in 2014, and life would carry on as before. You could even make the vote technically non-binding, so that you only then have to amend the constitution if it actually passes.

That's what a lot of people think. But the Spanish Constitution does not allow any region to secede. Nor does any other country's constitution, I am told. Personally, I think they should debate in the Spanish Parliament whether to amend the Constitution or not. Then any region could hold a legal democratic vote on whether ot not to secede.

oneblindmouse · Oct 30, 2017

blacbird said:
Which figure comes from . . . where? Does that represent the total pro-separation vote in the referendum? Which vote was seriously suppressed by physical intimidation from the Madrid government. Or are their polls suggesting this?

For clarity, I do not have a pro or con opinion on the Catalan separation issue.

caw

These figures refer to people who would like Cataluña to be a separate country. The figures come from quite a few polls taken in Cataluña. Which, of course, may well be skewed and not representative.

Ghosts of Franco: Catalonian Vote for Independence

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