Confession: I Like Fantasy Tropes-What are your favorites/least favorites?

frimble3

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Definitely Egyptian. So much Sobek potential! And if you can work in some ancient aliens nonsense you can get a Sobek sci-fi series sorted.
I like Sobek, but I'd skip the Ancient Aliens, and go straight for the Egyptian pantheon. Have the MC have to negotiate a path for Sobek's people through Tawaret's stretch of the Nile, for example.
So many ways to go. I'd like to see what kjbartolotta does with it.
 

yumpty-tum

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I like Sobek, but I'd skip the Ancient Aliens, and go straight for the Egyptian pantheon. Have the MC have to negotiate a path for Sobek's people through Tawaret's stretch of the Nile, for example.
So many ways to go. I'd like to see what kjbartolotta does with it.

Don't you know that ancient alien "theorists" loooooove the Egytian pantheon? Coz they were aliens, you see. So were all the Greek, Roman, Maya, Aztec, Inca, Hopi, Hindu, Buddhist (insert any other civilization/belief system ancient or otherwise) deities. So was Jesus. And all the angels too. And maybe God, though he might have been a mass hallucination caused by radiation poisoning from the Ark of the Covenant. And Nicola Tesla.

Besides, I just liked the alliteration of "Sobek sci-fi series".
 

Adirahalcyon

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Least favourites:

I can't handle elves. Mostly because they always seem to be a copy of Tolkien's elves and I don't see anything original in them anymore.
Then there's the bubble, always happy fairies. I want to see some evil fairies or some not so good ones. I don't like them happy all the time.
Evil vampires. Yeah, I want to see them portrayed something else rather than the typical blood-thirsty murderers.
Good vs Evil. I wouldn't skip it, but it isn't my favourite at all. I prefer it when there isn't a clearly good or bad guy in a story, everyone is flawed in their own way.
Wizards. Idk why, but I can't bring myself to like stories related to them.

Favourites:
Really well-thought creatures. I love to see different species that are based on old real-life ones.
Female warriors. I see them as more bad-ass compared to male ones, so if the story includes one then count me in.
Medieval themed. Mostly because of World of Warcraft.
Long adventures with 2 love interest. I like me some romance too.
Some teleporting to make traveling faster.
 

rwhegwood

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Favorite tropes:
Worldbuilding (especially dense and well thought out. Tolkien is pretty much the gold standard).
Maps. Love maps.
Eurasian modeled medieval settings, with more weight to the European side. This is the home setting of the epic fantasy...like Kabuki is rooted in the conventions of Edo period Japan. One can lift kabuki elements and put them in other cultural settings and get something clever and entertaining, but it's not quite the same.
Effective socio material monocultures, at least at the core...the normal world which is left to go exploring. That does not mean I want cookie cutter people, rather I want common cultural touchstones which can be used to reveal character and advance plot.
Magical beasts, including dragons. The only exception is Unicorns. I have only ever read one book that featured unicorns that was done really well, The Last Unicorn by Peter S. Beagle.
Magic trees and forests: Anything from Ents to trees that are doors/pathways to other realms.
Other worlds that impinge upon our own entered through secret doors in forgotten wardrobes, or paths or whathaveyou.
Magic/mysterious races: It's true Tolkien sucked most of the oxygen out of the room on this point. I don't want to see Tolkien knockoffs, but the house elves and goblin bankers of Harry Potter work well, as do the Fae of the Name of the Wind.
Good and Evil are clearly distinguished in theory, if not in always practice. I think Martin got the human struggle aspect of this right. No matter how terrible a bad guy is, there is still a foothold of good in his soul, and the same for the very good, who have a toehold of corruption somewhere in them.
Class systems that are believable and function. Rail against monarchies, and aristocrats, and all the evils great and small that can be laid at their doorstep, so can a lot of good, and like it or hate it, it's the most stable form of government we know, and generally does not suffer from the enormities and idiocies that emerge from fundamentally utopian political ideologies, like democracy or communism. Monarchs, at their best rule for the benefit and happiness of their people...who really are their people ethnically speaking, where the kingdom is an ancient kinship group. They aren't trying to change the world, just manage the huge task of getting along another day in the world we have got as it is. Kings and class don't necessarily mean feudalism. There are other model monarchical structures. This is one area I think Marin handles especially well, though he's a wee bit overkeen on the grit and suffering at the whim of one's life-careless betters.
Wizards, Sages and other mystical potent mentors. What would a hero's journey be without them? Just don't make them cartoon Gandalfs or Yodobewan doubles, "There is no try. There is only do, or do not, young padawa...apprentice."
Red Headed Magic users. Is there any more striking combination of hair, and skin...like a union of fire and ice? Relatively rare in the human population as a whole, but mesmerizing to behold in a well-formed human being (yes I will admit to having redheads in my family, and I've a few stray red hairs in my beard). It looks magic. Beautiful magic.

Hated tropes:
Barbarian Babes in (or out of )chainmail lingerie. I don't want to see warrior women as a rule just for the sake of it, especially in skimpy armor that is supposed to be both stylish and effective. Exceptions can be made if you can pull off a Brienne of Tarth, someone of skill, depth of character, and an acknowledged social oddity in her world which makes her life both sorrowful and rewarding in all sorts of unexpected ways. Otherwise to me it just smacks of left-handed male-bashing (intentional or not)...a projection of modern egalitarian mores in a fundamentally nonegalitarian age. Might as well have rock music at a medieval feast. It's anachronistic and incongruous in most contexts, though I will admit, not in all.
No Damsel in Distress Ever Allowed Anymore: I keep hearing about how this is a terrible trope, but when has it last been used successfully except in comedy or satire? Either the woman saves herself (and possibly her rescuers...what a clever turn around...not after it has become stale standard fare), or she is an integral aid to her rescuers. Fie! This trope just does not exist anymore that I've seen, and that's a shame. The two key problems it has as a story element it has, in my opinion, is the woman has limited agency and must be saved by the big strong man...oh horrors and a character with no purpose except to be the object of acquisition easily risks being a creature of mere cardboard. So, a story that is essentially over at the rescue is generally bad storytelling not a bad trope. Locked away in a tower, guarded by magic and monsters (maybe for good reason...prophecies and all that), the damsel is powerless. That much can be good storytelling to put a character in a situation where his/her competencies are useless. Rescue the damsel, get her back into court, the place where her natural competencies come into play, she may turn out to be a veritable Eleanor of Aquitaine...while her knight in shining armour remains a shiny knight with a few appended titles and manorial/monetary rewards...unless he's also a prince, then he is fair game and in a few years may need rescuing himself.
Evil Church/Noble Pagans: This is simply a childish cartoon that shows no respect for the role of faith/religion in a traditional society, nor any serious engagement with the complexities of human religious thought and practice. It treats "the church" as a repository of strawman religious tropes to be hauled out on cue and set ablaze. Nor does it speak to the real unsavory aspects of traditional pagan societies. Augeries with the entrails of prisoners (or kings)...well auguries in general, temple prostitution/slavery, human sacrifice (see Aztecs...who wants to preserve those practices as a point of indigenous culture), brutal caste systems, self-mutilation, hyper ethnocentrism (we are 'the people', others are just spoils of war). If the Church were so banal, evil and corrupt, and its leaders just venal charlatans and posers, who would ever believe it. There are good and bad in all human societies and their institutions. Noble enterprises can be subverted over time...and they can recover. Bad men can gain power but somehow do good. Good men with laudable intentions can make a muck of things if placed in power. Zealots can betray the heart of a faith, or they can hold the line against heresy and corruption. How could the Church so corrupt grow (except by conquest...assuming it actually convinced someone to believe in it that zealously to begin with)? So I find the cartoon evil of institutional stand-in churches of fantasy to often be both offensive and not remotely believable. Heretics are not necessarily good, and the standard bearers of Orthodoxy necessarily wrong. Pagans are not natural paragons of virtue (nor ignorant rubes to be religiously preyed upon), and priests are not universally preoccupied with money-grubbing, slut-shaming and boy buggering. It's a pet peeve. If you do religion, do it right, or don't bother.
Obligatory Sex Scenes/Romance: Yuck. I hates it. I don't want those images in my mind, and I sure don't want to put them in anyone else's. If it gets steamier than Rhett carrying Miss Scarlet up the stairs, I'm out...and even then I'm ambivalent. The whole notion of introducing brief pornographic butt flashing, and wall bumping just for a titillation break is just unseemly. The one area I have to distance myself from GMs storytelling. The first hint of it in a story is my signal to skim ahead until it's over and the actual story resumes again. Fantasy stories once upon a time did not need anything more than a coy smile and a furtive touch, maybe a ballroom dance, to say all that needed to be said on that front. Cut to wedding bells. Well, there is that one fairy tale where the hero has to behead his hostess (a cat) to free her from a wicked witch's spell...that's a little more than a furtive touch.
Orcs and hobbits. Those are Tolkein's and to an extent D&D's. Anywhere else they are out of place.
Unicorns. The only exception I'm willing to make is The Last Unicorn by Peter S Beagle.
Misandry I do not care for clever"subversions" of the so-called patriarchy in a Medieval setting. Everything bad is male or male associated, everything good is feminine (see evil church above). Male society is just a bunch of interlocking oppressions that need to be destroyed/overcome by a plucky heroine. I bore with it for a while in Wheel of Time, but eventually, the whole maleness is toxic/tainted thing got old, and I grimace in disgust wherever I run across it again.
Stew and Pie: I am weary of fantasy characters only eating some generic stew of analog potato and analog carrot and analog chicken/beef/lizard...or thanks to Martin: eel pie, lamprey pie, kidney pie, fish pie, trotter turnovers and gamecock blood aspic. It's either weak imagination, research overkill, or a calculated gross-out. Where's the braized lamb and leeks, the plate of fluffy scrambled eggs and pancakes, or just a nice fried trout?
Evil Villians who know they are evil and like it that way (mustache twirlers). Here I prefer a complex character whose "evil" is largely a question of context (whose side you are on). He/She is just the "hero" to the other side. Yeah, there' needs to be room for the occasional Ramsey Bolton...but even he liked his dogs.
Zombies and Werewolves: worn out, over done.

Given my stated tastes above, it's a pretty easy guess I'm pro-faith, pro-tradition, and for me, patriarchy is not an evil word...indeed my faith has actual patriarchs. Anyway those are a few of the tropes I like or dislike in the fantasy genre.
 
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Harlequin

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*squints* Is that... an army of strawmen I see on the horizon?_?

Why yes, yes it is!

There are an awful lot of odd assumptions in your post, and a swathe of false premises. I hardly even know where to start but feel compelled to point out (for example) that you've seemingly not understood what is meant by the term 'patriarchy'.
 

yumpty-tum

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Oh God, not this again... Can we please leave personal belief systems and politics (of all varieties) out of a perfectly nice discussion about magic crocodiles? Thanks.
 

TedTheewen

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A few weeks ago, during #MSWL on Twitter, and agent said he was tired of fantasy stories taking place in kingdoms, villages, and mountains. He wanted a setting that was different, like a port or a bayou. That got me thinking so right now, my current WIP, takes place at a trading post in between various empires, and is one of those "outside of the Official Control of anybody" places where things have their own rules and commerce is king.

I've been looking at tropes and working to avoid them. But there are some that work well because they're true and ubiquitous.

1. The kid who is no longer a kid and needs to do something with his life. He certainly doesn't want to settle down into something boring but he's young enough the parental unit doesn't want him going off into something that'll get him killed.

2. I hate to say it, but the tavern is useful and often times, true. When you're in a small place and you need to find somebody for something, you go to the bar. When I lived in a small town that had two bars and a post office, I'd stop by one of them if I needed something. A jump for my car's battery, a ride into town for a part to fix my car, information on when the village was going to collect certain types of garbage. If it's true in real life, it's a trope you can use. Just be smart about it.

3. I love the collection of cultures thrown together into a single space. Markets are great for that. Elves gotta buy their stuff someplace, right?

4. The poor boy/rich girl trope I don't like. However, having said that, if you can put a twist on it to make it work, then go for it.

5. I'd like to see a strong woman who isn't over-the-top strong. Rosie the Riveter comes to mind. Strong enough to keep the family going, will step on a spider if she finds one on the kitchen floor, and will protect her kids from bullies. But I really get tired of the over-the-top female warriors unless they have something special, like Wonder Woman. Ever swung a sword? Those bastards are heavy and will tear up your wrists if you're not strong enough. The middle-ground is more realistic and far more useful, I think. It also leave vulnerability, which is very important to any character.

6. Prophecy. I'm sick of prophecy via magic. I love prophecy via religion. I love religions. I love using them, creating them, and making them into a force unto themselves. I love their power to move people and often, their festivals are great times for things to happen. Their festivals bring people together and will brighten a character while at the same time be a great reason to dredge up the old wounds and family drama.

7. I agree with rhhegwood about the food. Food is an incredibly way to convey all kinds of things in a scene. Habits, character, wants and desires.
Jean Anthelme Brillat-Savarin said: "Tell me what you eat and I'll tell you what you are." To just have them munching on stew and pie is a lack of creativity and a wasted opportunity.

Sorry for the font issues, my mouse is being difficult to control. But yes, our culture is becoming more of a foodie culture, and that's very useful. JK Rowling used food to a great advantage. She said she did it out of care to the reader as she appreciated it when other writers included those details.


 
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LLTisdel

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Favorite tropes:
Worldbuilding (especially dense and well thought out. Tolkien is pretty much the gold standard).
Maps. Love maps.
Eurasian modeled medieval settings, with more weight to the European side. This is the home setting of the epic fantasy...like Kabuki is rooted in the conventions of Edo period Japan. One can lift kabuki elements and put them in other cultural settings and get something clever and entertaining, but it's not quite the same.
Effective socio material monocultures, at least at the core...the normal world which is left to go exploring. That does not mean I want cookie cutter people, rather I want common cultural touchstones which can be used to reveal character and advance plot.
Magical beasts, including dragons. The only exception is Unicorns. I have only ever read one book that featured unicorns that was done really well, The Last Unicorn by Peter S. Beagle.
Magic trees and forests: Anything from Ents to trees that are doors/pathways to other realms.
Other worlds that impinge upon our own entered through secret doors in forgotten wardrobes, or paths or whathaveyou.
Magic/mysterious races: It's true Tolkien sucked most of the oxygen out of the room on this point. I don't want to see Tolkien knockoffs, but the house elves and goblin bankers of Harry Potter work well, as do the Fae of the Name of the Wind.
Good and Evil are clearly distinguished in theory, if not in always practice. I think Martin got the human struggle aspect of this right. No matter how terrible a bad guy is, there is still a foothold of good in his soul, and the same for the very good, who have a toehold of corruption somewhere in them.
Class systems that are believable and function. Rail against monarchies, and aristocrats, and all the evils great and small that can be laid at their doorstep, so can a lot of good, and like it or hate it, it's the most stable form of government we know, and generally does not suffer from the enormities and idiocies that emerge from fundamentally utopian political ideologies, like democracy or communism. Monarchs, at their best rule for the benefit and happiness of their people...who really are their people ethnically speaking, where the kingdom is an ancient kinship group. They aren't trying to change the world, just manage the huge task of getting along another day in the world we have got as it is. Kings and class don't necessarily mean feudalism. There are other model monarchical structures. This is one area I think Marin handles especially well, though he's a wee bit overkeen on the grit and suffering at the whim of one's life-careless betters.
Wizards, Sages and other mystical potent mentors. What would a hero's journey be without them? Just don't make them cartoon Gandalfs or Yodobewan doubles, "There is no try. There is only do, or do not, young padawa...apprentice."
Red Headed Magic users. Is there any more striking combination of hair, and skin...like a union of fire and ice? Relatively rare in the human population as a whole, but mesmerizing to behold in a well-formed human being (yes I will admit to having redheads in my family, and I've a few stray red hairs in my beard). It looks magic. Beautiful magic.

Hated tropes:
Barbarian Babes in (or out of )chainmail lingerie. I don't want to see warrior women as a rule just for the sake of it, especially in skimpy armor that is supposed to be both stylish and effective. Exceptions can be made if you can pull off a Brienne of Tarth, someone of skill, depth of character, and an acknowledged social oddity in her world which makes her life both sorrowful and rewarding in all sorts of unexpected ways. Otherwise to me it just smacks of left-handed male-bashing (intentional or not)...a projection of modern egalitarian mores in a fundamentally nonegalitarian age. Might as well have rock music at a medieval feast. It's anachronistic and incongruous in most contexts, though I will admit, not in all.
No Damsel in Distress Ever Allowed Anymore: I keep hearing about how this is a terrible trope, but when has it last been used successfully except in comedy or satire? Either the woman saves herself (and possibly her rescuers...what a clever turn around...not after it has become stale standard fare), or she is an integral aid to her rescuers. Fie! This trope just does not exist anymore that I've seen, and that's a shame. The two key problems it has as a story element it has, in my opinion, is the woman has limited agency and must be saved by the big strong man...oh horrors and a character with no purpose except to be the object of acquisition easily risks being a creature of mere cardboard. So, a story that is essentially over at the rescue is generally bad storytelling not a bad trope. Locked away in a tower, guarded by magic and monsters (maybe for good reason...prophecies and all that), the damsel is powerless. That much can be good storytelling to put a character in a situation where his/her competencies are useless. Rescue the damsel, get her back into court, the place where her natural competencies come into play, she may turn out to be a veritable Eleanor of Aquitaine...while her knight in shining armour remains a shiny knight with a few appended titles and manorial/monetary rewards...unless he's also a prince, then he is fair game and in a few years may need rescuing himself.
Evil Church/Noble Pagans: This is simply a childish cartoon that shows no respect for the role of faith/religion in a traditional society, nor any serious engagement with the complexities of human religious thought and practice. It treats "the church" as a repository of strawman religious tropes to be hauled out on cue and set ablaze. Nor does it speak to the real unsavory aspects of traditional pagan societies. Augeries with the entrails of prisoners (or kings)...well auguries in general, temple prostitution/slavery, human sacrifice (see Aztecs...who wants to preserve those practices as a point of indigenous culture), brutal caste systems, self-mutilation, hyper ethnocentrism (we are 'the people', others are just spoils of war). If the Church were so banal, evil and corrupt, and its leaders just venal charlatans and posers, who would ever believe it. There are good and bad in all human societies and their institutions. Noble enterprises can be subverted over time...and they can recover. Bad men can gain power but somehow do good. Good men with laudable intentions can make a muck of things if placed in power. Zealots can betray the heart of a faith, or they can hold the line against heresy and corruption. How could the Church so corrupt grow (except by conquest...assuming it actually convinced someone to believe in it that zealously to begin with)? So I find the cartoon evil of institutional stand-in churches of fantasy to often be both offensive and not remotely believable. Heretics are not necessarily good, and the standard bearers of Orthodoxy necessarily wrong. Pagans are not natural paragons of virtue (nor ignorant rubes to be religiously preyed upon), and priests are not universally preoccupied with money-grubbing, slut-shaming and boy buggering. It's a pet peeve. If you do religion, do it right, or don't bother.
Obligatory Sex Scenes/Romance: Yuck. I hates it. I don't want those images in my mind, and I sure don't want to put them in anyone else's. If it gets steamier than Rhett carrying Miss Scarlet up the stairs, I'm out...and even then I'm ambivalent. The whole notion of introducing brief pornographic butt flashing, and wall bumping just for a titillation break is just unseemly. The one area I have to distance myself from GMs storytelling. The first hint of it in a story is my signal to skim ahead until it's over and the actual story resumes again. Fantasy stories once upon a time did not need anything more than a coy smile and a furtive touch, maybe a ballroom dance, to say all that needed to be said on that front. Cut to wedding bells. Well, there is that one fairy tale where the hero has to behead his hostess (a cat) to free her from a wicked witch's spell...that's a little more than a furtive touch.
Orcs and hobbits. Those are Tolkein's and to an extent D&D's. Anywhere else they are out of place.
Unicorns. The only exception I'm willing to make is The Last Unicorn by Peter S Beagle.
Misandry I do not care for clever"subversions" of the so-called patriarchy in a Medieval setting. Everything bad is male or male associated, everything good is feminine (see evil church above). Male society is just a bunch of interlocking oppressions that need to be destroyed/overcome by a plucky heroine. I bore with it for a while in Wheel of Time, but eventually, the whole maleness is toxic/tainted thing got old, and I grimace in disgust wherever I run across it again.
Stew and Pie: I am weary of fantasy characters only eating some generic stew of analog potato and analog carrot and analog chicken/beef/lizard...or thanks to Martin: eel pie, lamprey pie, kidney pie, fish pie, trotter turnovers and gamecock blood aspic. It's either weak imagination, research overkill, or a calculated gross-out. Where's the braized lamb and leeks, the plate of fluffy scrambled eggs and pancakes, or just a nice fried trout?
Evil Villians who know they are evil and like it that way (mustache twirlers). Here I prefer a complex character whose "evil" is largely a question of context (whose side you are on). He/She is just the "hero" to the other side. Yeah, there' needs to be room for the occasional Ramsey Bolton...but even he liked his dogs.
Zombies and Werewolves: worn out, over done.

Given my stated tastes above, it's a pretty easy guess I'm pro-faith, pro-tradition, and for me, patriarchy is not an evil word...indeed my faith has actual patriarchs. Anyway those are a few of the tropes I like or dislike in the fantasy genre.

YES to so many of these.

And by the way, how fun to come back to this thread! :D I LOVED reading your favorite and least favorite tropes. I saw definite patterns and some surprises. Quest on, beloved fantasy genre!
 

Alli B.

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Isn't that the heroine's journey trope, though? The woman (who lives in the archetypal "man's world") initially rejects the feminine and seeks power in the world of men, but she re-integrates her feminine side and becomes whole and balanced by the end. It's supposed to be the female analog to the hero's journey. In the end, however, it's supposed to deconstruct the idea that everything that's traditionally feminine is really worse or weaker. The movie Brave would be an example of this trope.

I'm not so keen on the trope when it implies that women who are drawn to things that aren't traditionally feminine are A. Incredibly rare, B. Unilateral in their rejection of femininity (as in liking swordplay means you can't also be sentimental about children or small fuzzy animals, or also enjoy pressing wildflowers or something), and C. Somehow "better" or smarter than women who enjoy whatever it is that women in their society are typically expected to do.

Mind you, the hero's journey is overdone, imo, so the heroine's journey certainly might be too.

I have to admit that I'm a sucker for characters of any gender who fight prejudice and rebel against an unjust social order, though.
I had never head of the heroine's journey before you mentioned. I'm both appalled and intrigued. I just never once thought of the word hero and assumed it was geared only towards men.

To participate, I am in love with the David/Goliath, ordinary people that do the extraordinary or rise to the occasion, and unlikely heroes. I love the extremes of fantasy -- from beautiful unicorns to gory necromancy. I love settings and realities based off of the underdogs of history; simply imaging if it didn't turn on the way it did here on Earth. I've never minded quests or prophecy. I am one of the few left that like the genuine 'do the right thing because it's the right thing to do' heroes (I feel like everyone is tortured these days, or unintentional heroes, or just in the right place at the right time).

Things I'm not crazy about, werewolves/vamps/zombies. I don't like people that are just naturally great at everything, and the only time the prophecy really peeves me is when someone hardworking gets the role of a side kick while the destined hero does very little to grow to live up to the expectation (loved HP, but Hermione constantly put the extra effort in). I'm starting to hate fast-paced novels where everything is an adrenaline rush.
 
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A.P.M.

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Tropes I love:

Magical schools: Harry Potter, Chrestomanci, etc. I'm a sucker for magical schools.

Ensemble casts where everyone has a unique power: Think X-Men. I love meeting new characters in a fantasy setting and learning about what unique abilities they have.

OP MC: In order for me to be interested in an MC, they have to be unique. Give them something to make them stand out, and give them more power than the regular joes. I like some elements of Mary Sue-ism. Of course, if it goes overboard I get annoyed (Like Kvothe), but authors who can skim the line between their MC being special while also being interesting and facing challenges (for example, Rand A'lthor has OP abilities but faces madness) are really fun for me.

Anti-Heroism: I'm a sucker for an MC who is tempted by the dark side, or one who is perceived as being potentially dangerous or evil.

Least favorite tropes:

I'm not like other girls: Any female character who kicks ass and isn't passive, but then is continuously singled out as unique from "other women" for being that way.

Immediate recovery: Injuries and illness are glossed over. I want to see characters suffer, damnit. If someone gets a nasty injury in book one that would be expected to leave permanent damage, I want to repercussions in book 3.

Other species/races that have one defining trait: Elves are 100% beautiful and otherworldly, dwarves are 100% miners, only humans can be diverse, etc. Species don't work that way.

Non-diverse worlds: Look at this entire faerie realm where everyone is white and European! That makes sense?!

Magic users being discriminated against: This just makes no sense to me. If a group of people can use magic, you'd think they'd be the ones in power, not the ones fleeing and hiding. That actually pissed me off in Harry Potter. All these wizards can cure broken bones and illness, and yet they're letting muggles suffer because...? Do they really think they wouldn't be embraced by society if they can vastly improve people's lives?
 
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frimble3

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Oh God, not this again... Can we please leave personal belief systems and politics (of all varieties) out of a perfectly nice discussion about magic crocodiles? Thanks.
Hello, fellow crocodile fan! Trope complaint: Why is the power of speech only given to mammals, and generally only the nice, human-centric species? After all, the original talking animal was the serpent in Genesis.
(And, the basic hand shape for indicating 'talking' is either avian or reptilian.)
Why can't the crocodiles have the power of speech, or, at least, telepathy? This would account for these ones travelling as a pack, with a human. They would seem to be a natural for the 'keepers of the ancient wisdom/prophecy'.
Besides, what if it were to turn out that crocodiles have a sense of humour? After all, they spend hours lying in the water, faking being logs. Maybe they're just waiting for a chance to yell, "Watch where yer steppin', buddy!"
 

yumpty-tum

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Hello, fellow crocodile fan! Trope complaint: Why is the power of speech only given to mammals, and generally only the nice, human-centric species? After all, the original talking animal was the serpent in Genesis.
(And, the basic hand shape for indicating 'talking' is either avian or reptilian.)
Why can't the crocodiles have the power of speech, or, at least, telepathy? This would account for these ones travelling as a pack, with a human. They would seem to be a natural for the 'keepers of the ancient wisdom/prophecy'.
Besides, what if it were to turn out that crocodiles have a sense of humour? After all, they spend hours lying in the water, faking being logs. Maybe they're just waiting for a chance to yell, "Watch where yer steppin', buddy!"

I've been a croc-god fan since Offler, who is also a good demonstration of why talking reptiles aren't really a serious proposition. Now telepathic crocodiles is an awesome idea that must be turned into something.
 

Marian Perera

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Not a trope confined to fantasy, but it annoys me anyway. Heroine sees Villain mistreating someone. Heroine yells at or is rude to Villain, then goes back to doing whatever she was doing before she noticed this incident.

This is usually meant to show how feisty Heroine is (and how enlightened/progressive she is, if Villain acted out of racism or sexism), but it always makes me wonder. Does she think Villain will now slink meekly away and leave his victim alone? Isn't it more likely that Villain, especially if he's a powerful person who has now lost face, will be even more cruel as a result?

And this trope was subverted really well in A Song of Ice and Fire, where Arya is practising swordplay with the butcher's boy Mycah. Joffrey sees them, and viciously bullies Mycah, so Arya intervenes. The scene ends with Joffrey being injured and humiliated.

The consequence for this, since Joffrey is the crown prince and belongs to a powerful ruthless family, is that Mycah is murdered. Plus, Sansa's direwolf gets caught in the crossfire and killed too. What made a interesting contrast to this is a scene in the next novel, where Joffrey is being as murderous and sociopathic as usual, except this time the drunken Ser Dontos is his target. Sansa, through nothing more than diplomacy and flattery, gets Joffrey to spare Ser Dontos's life. In other words, the girl who often came off as naive and weak compared to her feisty kickass sister managed to accomplish what her sister didn't. I thought that was a great twist on the trope.
 
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Roxxsmom

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I'm a sucker for outcasts, exiles and misfits.

I love a well done romantic arc, and I enjoy sex scenes if the chemistry is real and they make sense to the story.

I like healers, and magic that works in small ways to offset lower technology without creating a utopia but also incurs costs and conundrums.

Worlds where women don't have to be the power behind the throne or be rescued by guys. I also like stories set in more traditional societies where the agency of women is still shown.

I love secret shames and other dark secrets. Conflicted protagonists. Characters who need to find their confidence, courage or principles. I'm a sucker for redemption arcs.

I'm not crazy about fae, vampires, or fantasy races that are a substitute for human diversity.

I'm tired of religions that feel like Christianity, or Islam, or Greek/Norse etc. with the serial numbers filed off. And not every culture that lives in a desert has to be presented as warlike fanatics who treat women like property.

I'm not wild about religions, species, or cultures presented as monolithically evil. Even if they're antagonists, they're likely mixed bags, just like in real life.

I get annoyed when anachronisms from our world sneak into a fantasy world where they wouldn't exist.

Stories where the author seemed to forget that everyone in the world except the hero's love interest isn't a dude.
 
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EMaree

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My Favs:
* Dragons. And yeah, I'm totally on team 'smart dragon friends are the best' rather than fierce feral murderbeasts.
* Magic that behaves like tech
* Demons and angels
* Monster boyfriends/girlfriends
* Forbidden love
* Properly chaotic-evil faeries/immortals/demons etc
* When the tiny wee fierce character is best friends/lovers with the big hulking person and protects them
* When the big, hulking, muscular character is a lady (Bonus points if she's chunky bruiser monstrously muscular, not sleek sexy powerlifter muscular, though both are great.)
* QUEER RELATIONSHIIIIIPS. MORE OF THEM IN EVERYTHING PLEASE.
* OwnVoices Fantasy books
* Non-Western fantasy settings
* Celtic fantasy settings
* Magic systems that include femme things like: menstruation, pregnancy, motherhood (see: Sorceror to the Crown. The Fifth Season)
* Intelligent animals that still act like animals (The Last Guardian, The Knife of Never Letting Go)
* Badass action girls who love stereo-typically girly things without shame (I love Throne of Glass for this, the assassin MC loves opera, nice dresses, plush furniture and cakes.)
* Characters who are doomed to die
* Hot-and-they-know it, flirty royal daredevils. Always seems to be Princes, more Princesses please. (Throne of Glass, A Darker Shade of Magic, Grisha Trilogy etc)
* Badass Queens
* Mind control powers

Least Favs:
* There are no PoC/women/LGBTQ+ folks in this main character group, for no reason
* This world is dark and edgy and I will show it through sexual assault
* Dragons are fine but diversity isn't
* Our elves/orcs are metaphors for racism and so we don't need diverse skin tones
* No female friends
* All women are love interests
* Monolithic races, especially 'all [X] are evil'.
 
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Emily.Loyce

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My Favs:
* Dragons. And yeah, I'm totally on team 'smart dragon friends are the best' rather than fierce feral murderbeasts.
* Magic that behaves like tech
* Demons and angels
* Monster boyfriends/girlfriends
* Forbidden love
* Properly chaotic-evil faeries/immortals/demons etc
* When the tiny wee fierce character is best friends/lovers with the big hulking person and protects them
* When the big, hulking, muscular character is a lady (Bonus points if she's chunky bruiser monstrously muscular, not sleek sexy powerlifter muscular, though both are great.)
* QUEER RELATIONSHIIIIIPS. MORE OF THEM IN EVERYTHING PLEASE.
* OwnVoices Fantasy books
* Non-Western fantasy settings
* Celtic fantasy settings
* Magic systems that include femme things like: menstruation, pregnancy, motherhood (see: Sorceror to the Crown. The Fifth Season)
* Intelligent animals that still act like animals (The Last Guardian, The Knife of Never Letting Go)
* Badass action girls who love stereo-typically girly things without shame (I love Throne of Glass for this, the assassin MC loves opera, nice dresses, plush furniture and cakes.)
* Characters who are doomed to die
* Hot-and-they-know it, flirty royal daredevils. Always seems to be Princes, more Princesses please. (Throne of Glass, A Darker Shade of Magic, Grisha Trilogy etc)
* Badass Queens
* Mind control powers

Least Favs:
* There are no PoC/women/LGBTQ+ folks in this main character group, for no reason
* This world is dark and edgy and I will show it through sexual assault
* Dragons are fine but diversity isn't
* Our elves/orcs are metaphors for racism and so we don't need diverse skin tones
* No female friends
* All women are love interests
* Monolithic races, especially 'all [X] are evil'.

I love everything you put here unf.

+++ for muscle lady

For the least favs, what if all the women are love interests for other women? >_>;

Joking aside, I agree with it all and wish there were more books with all that stuff, which is probably why I'm writing a big epic fantasy full of queer women.

If you know of any works with a lot of the above mentioned content, please let me know.
 

Harlequin

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I still don't quite understand what constitutes a non-western fantasy setting.

I think of my fantasy as very western, at least in influence. Determinism is very western. But western seems to be synonymous with European medieval?

Recently finished beta readign an AW'er's superhero MS, pretty much all women and all queer.
 

Roxxsmom

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I also want to add that I'd like to see more fantasies with systems of government that are other than monarchies, and I'd also like to see more with monarchies that don't work in the same way as they did in medieval and/or early-renaissance Europe. They don't have to be a modern democracies or republics either, but there's a whole slew of possibilities.
 

Simpson17866

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Loves:

Platonic Life-Partners, Like Brother Like Sister – I love it when two gay/bi men, two gay/bi women, or a straight/bi man and a straight/bi woman are shown to love each other as best friends without even a hint of sexual/romantic tension

Villainous Friendship, Even Evil Has Loved Ones – villains who have people they care about are no less evil and terrifying than villains who don't, and often become more evil and terrifying for the fact that they have somebody they're doing it for (and have something to lose)

Card Carrying Villains and/or Dark Lords – Yeah, most bad guys think of themselves of the good guys, but there are also plenty of people who are more like Richard Ramierez who reveled in the infamy of being able to terrorize millions with his serial killer identity. Imagine someone like him with arcane powers :evil

Vampires/Werewolves/Zombies – If these were intrinsically bad because they're popular, then "good" stories would not use the words "and" or "the" ;)

Magic A is Magic A – I love it when a crazy new unexpected application of a previously established power can surprise me with how much sense it makes according to what we've already been shown :)

Villain Protagonist – I love seeing how villains respond differently to the same kinds of situations that heroes might find themselves in

Token Evil Teammate / Token Good Teammate – I love seeing heroes and villains forced to work together (not necessarily just out of convenience, but even genuinely caring about each other and to trying to reconcile themselves to each others' values and worldviews, but to eventually finding that they'll never be able to).

Orcs – see Vampires/... ;)

Dragons

Dislikes:

Straight White Male Lead – not the concept itself, but the fact that far north of 50% (probably closer to 75%) of leading protagonists in mainstream American fiction are of a demographic that only makes up 25% of the American population (while the other 75% of us only get 25% of leading protagonists in the mainstream). A story with a female lead is considered "women's fiction," a story with an LGBT+ lead is considered "LGBT fiction," a story with a black lead is considered "black fiction," but a story with a straight white male lead is considered "fiction." I don't have a problem with these stories existing, I just don't like how hard the industry works to stop all of the other stories from existing.

Faux Action Girl, High Heel Face Turn, The Smurfette... – anything that says there are 3.8 billion people in the world who matter and 3.8 billion people in the world who don't (essentially the same as the previous)

Planet of Hats – I am convinced that most of the evils in the real world come from the same place that most of the Planets of Hats in fiction do, and in my own fiction, I've decided that humanity's Hat is that we assign Hats more value than they deserve. Every other species that I've come up with is more comfortable with diversity than we are, more comfortable with accepting "generally" and "rarely" statements instead of always having to turn them into "always" or "never" statements the way humans always do.

... I just made myself sad :(

Rape for shock value – or worse, the opposite: rape portrayed as a casual hiccup instead of as one of the most vicious tortures ever invented. Or raping one character to make another character look cool. (I'm using this as the backstory for one of my villains, and I'm always looking for feedback on my notes because there are a thousand ways to do this wrong. Not least of all because the character in question is one of the most vicious villains I've ever come up with)
 

EMaree

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I love everything you put here unf.

+++ for muscle lady

For the least favs, what if all the women are love interests for other women? >_>;

Joking aside, I agree with it all and wish there were more books with all that stuff, which is probably why I'm writing a big epic fantasy full of queer women.

If you know of any works with a lot of the above mentioned content, please let me know.

MORE QUEER LADY SPEC FIC IN THE WORLD PLEASE. WE NEED SO MUCH MORE OF IT.

Oooh, the superhero book Harlequin mentioned sounds amazing.

My buddy Buzhidao writes some amazing queer fantasy stories that have some A+ rep of ladies loving ladies. I think her latest book The Lovesong of Numo & Hammerfist is coming out soon -- that one isn't a queer romance, but the love interest is a proper bulky monster girlfriend and I *love* her.

It makes me so happy to know AWers are working on this kind of content.

I still don't quite understand what constitutes a non-western fantasy setting.

I think of my fantasy as very western, at least in influence. Determinism is very western. But western seems to be synonymous with European medieval?

Oooh, this is a good question, because 'non-western fantasy' is a fairly malleable term. Sometimes it's about setting, other times it's about the influences clearly being drawn on a fantasy world. I tend to favour #OwnVoices authors for non-Western fantasy.

Some that stick in my memory:

THE FIFTH SEASON: kind of an afropunk apocalypse? The writer is American, but the story has a strong black voice and culture behind it. #OwnVoices author. The setting itself is apocalyptic America, I think(?), but it's a future where brown skin and kinky hair is dominant and pale skin is less desirable.

THE THRONE OF THE CRESCENT MOON: Middle-Eastern inspired fantasy world, with Islamic cultural influences. #OwnVoices author.

AKATA WITCH: YA fantasy set in Nigeria, #OwnVoices author.

ANANSI BOYS: A fantasy book inspired by African mythology and with an all-PoC cast, by a white British author.

ZOO CITY by Lauren Beukes is African set and culturally inspired fantasy by a South African novelist.
 
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Harlequin

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I've read Fifth Season and Anansi Boys. The MC in Left Hand of Darkness is black, too, or at least dusky, which confuses the inhabitants of the world he's visiting (winter planet so no dark skinned people).

I don't think I count as own voices, and tend to prefer non human characters. There's a hint of Greek culture (mostly, phratries) but no Greek mythology or religion of any kind.
 

BCAlexander

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I'm sure there are a lot more than these that I could spend the day thinking of, but these lists are long enough.

Favorites

Hidden Badasss: Can't help but love this one. You get that character who just doesn't seem to have much use in anything. Hell, they even appear pretty incompetent at whatever job they are supposed to be doing. But at a moments notice, they unleash their badassery, surprising their friends/party members and the readers. Extra points for bumbling henchmen/guards personas.

Rag-Tag Band of Adventurers: No one gets along, or at least very few do, yet here we go on an adventure. Easy conflict, great interactions, millions of ways to do it. Extra points if they loosely follow the "Five Man Band" trope (Loosely because I like to substitute the concept of "The Chick" with "The Heart." Pretty much the same, just not set in stone that The Heart is a woman. In fact, triple the points for The Heart being a male because I'm pretty sure I fall in that).

The Pet Companion: Pokemon, Digimon, and any other show/video game that had this trope when I was a kid is probably why I love it so much. And honestly, we don't get enough of it done really well. Give me the loyal dog/owner, the contracted demon/summoner relationship, etc.

Animal/Human Psyche Bonds: Going along with the above, I love if the Pet Companion has a connection with characters. Something binds their minds together. Not always a good thing as well. New conflicts or surprising amount of aid can result.

Dragons: I love dragons. All types of body shapes/sizes/colors/weaponized breathes. Just not a fan of ones auto-submissive to riders if they have high intelligence (for example, if they are just like everyday animals the above two tropes work great) or are all too stuck up. Give them human characteristics and a wonderful character relationship grows.

Polytheistic Religions/Gods Interacting with World: There are probably two reasons I love these. One, I grew up reading Dragonlance. Probably enough said right there. Two, if I were to believe in a religion, I would actually want it to be one. So give me a fun, rich pantheon of gods and let the good times roll. Have them interacting with the world (like Dragonlance or Greek mythology without all the shapeshifting into animals a boning people [looking at you, Zeus]) and I'm in heaven. Or rather, the heavens have come to me?

Least Favorites

One-Dimension Races: Now, I can tolerate the usual Tolkien races: elves, dwarves, etc. But they can't be essentially one trait. All elves can't be good and holy SOB's while goblins are all underhanded jerks. Humans aren't all like that and they usually all have the same intelligence level. Substance please.

Prophecies: This is one that is actually because it is used too much. Not well, either. Don't tell me what needs to happen. Let's let the characters figure that out themselves to set those goals, stakes, and urgency.

Good Vs. Evil: I can't handle a clear good side vs. clear bad side. Gray area characters give me life. Heroes can be selfish in their missions. Villains could be approaching an unpopular greater good.

Apostrophes/Unpronounceable names: I really only use this in the terms of made up names from a made up language. I'm totally cool with, let's say, the Polynesian names and their apostrophes. But, it is really nice to be able to say a characters name correctly when talking with friends. Given, even real world names get confusing to say without hearing it. *Cough cough* Hermione *Cough cough*

Portal Fantasy: Can't stand them, really. I get the benefit. Drop a character who knows nothing about the world into said world and the reader gets to learn along with them! These stories just lose me most of the time.

Time Travel: Time paradoxes make me hate this. These are a pain in the ass to read (I'm sure to write as well), so it is very rare I enjoy time travel.

Untrained farmhand with "natural" fighting skills: About as realistic as me "naturally" playing lead violin in concert and it sounding amazing. Hint, I don't play the violin.

The girl disguised as a boy: This might be more personal. I hate the idea that someone has to conceal themselves. I mean, great story, but maybe I'm running into too much of this trope and just want to watch people do things as themselves.

Bleak Worlds: There can be bleak areas. But completely bleak worlds just destroy me. Follow-up with bleak storylines with characters dying helplessly left and right, bringing utter hopelessness with all situations, and just crushing my soul nonstop crushes... well... my soul. I'll pass.


Thanks for letting my rant and rave about these things. This has been a fun mental exercise.
 

Xelebes

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I dislike power fantasies. I like fantasy-of-manners. I'm not a fan of magic, or enormous crises. I like crises that can be resolved by pushing a piece of paper instead of driving a sword through someone's chest. I'll take questions over quests.

I don't read a lot of fantasy so this doesn't count much.
 

valleycs

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Loves:
1. Bizarre magic systems
2. Elves--I said it.
3. Prophecies
4. A crew/group/gang that's flawed and possibly full of antiheroes (or at least a few)
5. Female antagonists
6. The Epic Quest

Hates:
1. Prophecies
2. Fairies--it's done
3. Vampires--it's REALLY done
4. Lack of PTSD for those in battles/tough situations
5. In fact, lack of realism just bc it's fantasy. Who caress what the genre is?? Make me believe it. Make it real. I'll respect you so much more.
6. Authors who write a female lead *just* to make a statement. I want the MC character to develop, not automatically be "hard."
7. Women who are judged for what they do w their bodies--unless it's some type of historical fantasy, and the author is going for realism. i.e. Igraine in Mists of Avalon. How she felt it was improper to think of Uther, act a certain way, etc.
 

Emily.Loyce

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Loves:
4. A crew/group/gang that's flawed and possibly full of antiheroes (or at least a few)

I'm been trying to write a series of short fantasies that follows a group cutthroats. The character leading the group is of the irredeemable sort and she is hell bent on grasping as much power as she can hold via deception and murder, by trying to take over a city. The perspective character that gets caught up with them I suppose would be classified as Chaotic good/chaotic nuetral. She's not opposed to breaking the law or killing people if it helps people, but she sort of gets roped in to this really bad group. the other character who is sort of the second to the evil leader is kind of the second in command and she's a bit of a brute but she's more of an anti hero.

My problem is that it's really heavy and for a good chunk of it it's more like you're following the villains around witht he perspective character acting as the voice of reason that gets promptly ignored every time so I haven't decided if I can make it work yet, but I really want to.