Confession: I Like Fantasy Tropes-What are your favorites/least favorites?

PyriteFool · Sep 15, 2017

Marian Perera said:
I also hate it if this woman then mocks other women who like embroidery or want to stay at home with their kids. Because that's so weak and girly. It reminds me of Arya in Game of Thrones saying "Most girls are idiots", because how can we tell she's cool and badass if she doesn't put other girls down?

I actually kind of love the way ASOIF handles this trope, but as always ymmv. The world is uber patriarchal, but so much of the story is watching the women and other disenfranchised folks finding ways to process and deal with it. Arya's initial "Girls are dumb" opinion isn't really followed through in the narrative. Also she's like 9. No lie, I was pretty similar at 9, but I got better (no shape shifting assassin cult, though) That might actually be why the trope annoys me as much as it does when it shows up in adults/young adults. Y'all should know better. Your casual misogyny does not impress me.

frimble3 · Sep 15, 2017

I would like to thank you all for so much temptation, and so much to think about.
I like dwarves, elves, misleading prophecies, and parties that are travelling somewhere and get caught in adventures.
The only dragon I ever liked was in 'Tea with the Black Dragon'. I find the rest are best as large meat-eating animals. Like T-Rexes that are evolving into the kind of bird that collects shiny things.

Kjbartolotta · Sep 15, 2017

Marian Perera said:
6. Women who save it for the right man are good. Women who have sex for other reasons are... not. There's a novel where the villainness, plotting her evil schemes, tells her boy toy that he should make do without her for the time being. So he starts pleasuring himself, looking upset as he does so, and this is all presented as evidence of her depravity. My review included the line, "Telling a teenaged boy to masturbate... that's just cruel."

LOL. When authors do this, the 'bad' characters are way too much windows into their mind.

On a similar note, I remember in Half a War there's a character who engages in casual revenge sex to get back at her boyfriend. She's never depicted as anything but an extremely decent and caring young lady, and afterwards, the relationship recovers and everything's fine. It may or may not have been a bad choice, but it doesn't soil her or change the fact that she's one of the most pure good characters in the series. Thought it was one of the more interesting uses of sex in a fantasy novel.

Also, mentioning dragons and other beasties, I am 100% Team Unicorn.

Roxxsmom · Sep 15, 2017

Marian Perera said:
I also hate it if this woman then mocks other women who like embroidery or want to stay at home with their kids. Because that's so weak and girly. It reminds me of Arya in Game of Thrones saying "Most girls are idiots", because how can we tell she's cool and badass if she doesn't put other girls down?

Isn't that the heroine's journey trope, though? The woman (who lives in the archetypal "man's world") initially rejects the feminine and seeks power in the world of men, but she re-integrates her feminine side and becomes whole and balanced by the end. It's supposed to be the female analog to the hero's journey. In the end, however, it's supposed to deconstruct the idea that everything that's traditionally feminine is really worse or weaker. The movie Brave would be an example of this trope.

I'm not so keen on the trope when it implies that women who are drawn to things that aren't traditionally feminine are A. Incredibly rare, B. Unilateral in their rejection of femininity (as in liking swordplay means you can't also be sentimental about children or small fuzzy animals, or also enjoy pressing wildflowers or something), and C. Somehow "better" or smarter than women who enjoy whatever it is that women in their society are typically expected to do.

Mind you, the hero's journey is overdone, imo, so the heroine's journey certainly might be too.

I have to admit that I'm a sucker for characters of any gender who fight prejudice and rebel against an unjust social order, though.

Marian Perera said:
2. Animal companions act like animals at least part of the time, rather than being loyal obedient servants/sidekicks 24/7.

Totally agree here. I like intelligent animals as a trope, but I like them to be representatives of their species, to think and act in ways that aren't human.

Harlequin · Sep 15, 2017

I'm not so keen on the trope when it implies that women who are drawn to things that aren't traditionally feminine are A. Incredibly rare, B. Unilateral in their rejection of femininity (as in liking swordplay means you can't also be sentimental about children or small fuzzy animals, or also enjoy pressing wildflowers or something), and C. Somehow "better" or smarter than women who enjoy whatever it is that women in their society are typically expected to do.

Well duh. The best kind of woman is the one who wants to be a man, naturally. ;-)

hereticdoll · Sep 16, 2017

Harlequin said:
Well duh. The best kind of woman is the one who wants to be a man, naturally. ;-)[/COLOR]

I have noticed my default is not really to give any note between men and woman outside of biology/and clothing depending on the setting. Like if a woman is a warrior, she isn't a "female warrior," or "warrior woman" she is just a "warrior." Like I wouldn't think it was strange for a female character to carry/hold/defend a male character just the same as we traditionally see a man doing to a woman.

Religion0 · Sep 16, 2017

Very interesting how some people can go "I loathe this" followed by someone going "Okay, but I love that".

I love:Fantastical beasts; dragons, unicorns, gryphons, hippogryphs, you name it. Especially unusual takes on them, like... carnivorous unicorns. Even smart, talking (perhaps magical?) animals deserve a mention.
Elementals, especially when coupled with above to create elemental beasts. Yes, bring on the Pokémon!
Wuxia and other non-typical-fantasy-Europe settings. Asia, the Middle East, tribal communities, Aztecs and mayans and Incas, oh my! Even something as non-typey as ancient Europe or a medieval Europe that isn't knights and castles, more Byzantine Empire, perhaps.
Myths are the truth; people believe that the stars are a huge herd of unicorns because they actually are! (OMFG, want.)
Storytelling. Proper telling of a story, weaving intricate tapestries of words. Guy Gavriel Kay makes me swoon at his ability to do this.
Magic! Magic that moves continents and melts rocks, magic that lets you walk on air, magic!

I hate:
Mono-cultures. I have yet to see anybody who likes this. I think it can be done with a small tribal culture if they're at least somewhat isolated, but if they are a proper civilization then it makes no sense.
Gritty, grimdark fantasy. I would rather read about people who bleed pink-frosted cupcakes than stuff that kind of grit in my eyes.
Love at first sight. Interest, sure, attraction, yeah, not love.
Sacrificing developing one thing to maybe develop something else. Some authors seem to believe that sufficiently interesting characters (who might not be that interesting) is sufficient excuse to craft their world of cardboard cutouts, or vice versa. Hills made of dirt and characters made of flesh and blood, please and thank you!

Testome · Sep 16, 2017

I suppose getting older that I've grown tired of the battle between good and evil scenario, but I guess that's why I enjoy GoT since it's mostly shades of gray. Here's my list.

What I enjoy:
I enjoy magic systems where they establish rules and stick to them no matter how fantastical things get. Even bordering on science fiction.
Stories where every page, scene, and chapter breathes magic. That's not to say I don't enjoy non magic stories. They are awesome too, but if magic is only hinted at in a story I usually feel cheated in some way. Either there is or isn't magic in a fantasy story. it's one or the other for me. Like I enjoy Brandon Sanderson's magic more than Tolkien's for example.
I enjoy subverted tropes and magic systems where there are consequences to magic and the user is afraid to employ it.
I enjoy battles between omnipotent characters at the end of a novel where the powers were earned over that or a series and they go all out on each other.
I don't mind when the hero dies at the end of his journey. Too many mcs survive too much crap because of plot armor. If they survive, they should have consequences. Too often fantasies have corny happy endings.
I'm a fan of Dune type settings/stories. (though minus the prophecy part these days)

What I dislike:
I hate prophecies where that is the entire premise of the novel. Chosen ones and Mary Sues. Heroes that are completely good without any drawbacks.
I'm not a major fan of good vs evil. An enemy that stands in the way of your protagonist sure, but the black and white view of the universe isn't my cup of tea anymore.
Villains that just want to destroy everything in sight without reasonable motivation.
I hate happy endings. Your hero can win in the end sure, but let the bittersweet with a dash of crazy be there too.
I hate unrealistic fantasies. I mean I don't need realism based on our world, but whatever rules the author establishes in his/her world must be adhered too for me.
I have a hard time really getting invested fantasy in contemporary settings. If you're going the fantasy, go for it real hard. Also, I'm bored of boarding school and magic schools.
GoT or LoTR or Harry Potter rehashes unless the setting or magic system is this awesome and unique thing.
deus ex machina scenerios.

Marian Perera · Sep 16, 2017

Testome said:
Heroes that are completely good without any drawbacks.

I've read a few writers trying to subvert this with main characters who are extremely flawed, e.g. he's an amoral asshole, or she's a hopeless loser, and this is the major selling point (or worse, the only selling point) of the character. It's like a Game of Thrones-inspired story where the protagonist is Ramsay Bolton. I always feel a little confused because I don't know if I'm supposed to enjoy this character's daring subversiveness or if I'm supposed to keep reading in the hopes that he'll redeem himself or she'll die.

S. Eli · Sep 16, 2017

Some tropes I love are, like, the pure hatred of others. Like I love pirates of some fantasy sort, and the more harmless the better lol. I love it when they're more like some ragtag rugby team rather than a floating troupe of rapist-murderers. I also really like surprise zombies, which I know people hate. When I'm reading a book about some culture that whoops we-were-forced-away-by-the-apocalypse-but-why-no-one-knows and then someone escapes and everything is zombies, or we know the zombies are there but-not-here-no-way and then boom! They're here, too. Idk if zombies really count as fantasy, but half the time their basis in science is thread thin, so I'm counting it here.
-I like not-tolkien fantasies. I couldn't care less about elves. Hate whenever fae come up (apparently I miss out on a lot of good books because of this).
-I also enjoy dragons. It seems we all do, and have similar restrictions to the dragons we like (though I don't mind puppy dragons, either! lol I'm a bad fantasy fan, ya'll)
-Desert worlds! In non-fantasy and fantasy alike.
-MONSTERS! My favorite! Give me a monster book, and I don't care if it's pokemon, or tremors, or alien, or sharknado. I love them all.
-Functional romantic relationships. Doesn't have to be the main character, but I always like a spousal team kicking ass
-Prominent friendships.

Other dislikes:
-When "I don't want to marry this man I've been arranged to marry all my life so I'm leaving my country high and dry to discover myself"
-When something has too many white people, or any non-white people aren't interesting/significant enough to keep me there. I would just like to note that I've been this way since I was a small child, so it's really no anger/diversity-demand behind it. I mean, I want diversity, too, but that came later in life. There are many blockbuster films I haven't seen to this day because my nine-year-old self saw its poster was filled with white people, and I just decided the movie wasn't for me lol
-The main character is a misogynist. Even when it's about him growing, I can't read through a hundred pages about a woman's/man's place.
-The man main character is that kind of man main character (Gary Stu's, basically. I think I hate them more than Mary Sue's.)
-When they magic but it only shows up two pages before the end.

ETA to faves: WHEN THE QUEEN IS A BADASS

Testome · Sep 16, 2017

Marian Perera said:
I've read a few writers trying to subvert this with main characters who are extremely flawed, e.g. he's an amoral asshole, or she's a hopeless loser, and this is the major selling point (or worse, the only selling point) of the character. It's like a Game of Thrones-inspired story where the protagonist is Ramsay Bolton. I always feel a little confused because I don't know if I'm supposed to enjoy this character's daring subversiveness or if I'm supposed to keep reading in the hopes that he'll redeem himself or she'll die.

I'm mostly just looking for a mc that's not charismatic enough to talk his/her way out of anything, the best whatever(insert some skill) in the world, have some impossibly strong magic, and can handle anything without an emotional reaction. Sure you can pick one of those qualities with a downside, but like not all as some writers like to do. I'm not sure I would follow a Ramsay Bolton character for an entire novel, but I like my characters to have fatal flaw that no matter what they try to do good and no matter how well they plan and prepare that it always gets them into trouble. Or turn something like loyalty or honor into a negative trade as well a positive. I am also a fan of characters who think they are doing good, but are obviously very evil people on occasion.

Roxxsmom · Sep 16, 2017

Religion0 said:
Very interesting how some people can go "I loathe this" followed by someone going "Okay, but I love that".

This always happens with these threads. Hopefully it reminds people who are brainstorming ideas or working on stories that nothing is categorically taboo, so they won't get depressed that their story is about (say) an elf woman running away from an arranged marriage with a dragon, but then the dragon lets her ride it, and there's this prophecy that's imparted by a talking cat...)

Story prompt idea: write a story that incorporates at least three tropes you are absolutely sick of :Jump:

S. Eli said:
-I also enjoy dragons. It seems we all do, and have similar restrictions to the dragons we like (though I don't mind puppy dragons, either! lol I'm a bad
ETA to faves: WHEN THE QUEEN IS A BADASS

I like friendly, tame dragons that let people ride them too, if it's framed in a way that's halfway plausible. I don't fully understand the hatred of this trope. Are there really fantasy readers out there who didn't dream of having their own rideable dragon when they were a kid?

Harlequin · Sep 16, 2017

Yep. All the chosen one hate hasn't stopped me from writing a chosen one story. :Sun:

There's only two options for heroes, really: accidental, or deliberate. Chosen one stories boil down to deliberate.

I didn't dream of dragons. I will read them, though.

Phrenic · Sep 16, 2017

I love sword and sorcery fantasy with remains of an advanced civilization as a backdrop. The Dark Tower, Wheel of Time, Shannara, Elantris, probably others I'm forgetting about.
I also like Gods meddling with us, fighting amongst themselves, etc. American Gods, Warbreaker.

No vampires.

Marian Perera · Sep 16, 2017

Roxxsmom said:
I like friendly, tame dragons that let people ride them too, if it's framed in a way that's halfway plausible. I don't fully understand the hatred of this trope. Are there really fantasy readers out there who didn't dream of having their own rideable dragon when they were a kid?

Sure. But then I watched Eragon.

And before that I'd read a lot of McCaffrey and Dragonlance books, so I was starting to burn out on the dragons whose main purpose was to be mounts for people. Now, it has to be done really well for me to pick up a book with this trope.

Brightdreamer · Sep 16, 2017

Marian Perera said:
Sure. But then I watched Eragon.

And before that I'd read a lot of McCaffrey and Dragonlance books, so I was starting to burn out on the dragons whose main purpose was to be mounts for people. Now, it has to be done really well for me to pick up a book with this trope.

In Robin Hobb's Liveship Traders series, the queen dragon had very strong opinions about the idea of humans riding on dragons: she'd carry them in her claws if need be, but never consent to be ridden. (Mercedes Lackey, in her Elvenbane books, also demonstrated the less-than-ideal situation a rider would be in, clinging to a dragon in flight...)

BethS · Sep 16, 2017

ULTRAGOTHA said:
Have you read Year of the Griffin by Diana Wynne Jones?

I have not but shall remedy that. I do have her Tough Guide to Fantasyland.

Brightdreamer · Sep 16, 2017

BethS said:
I have not but shall remedy that. I do have her Tough Guide to Fantasyland.

FWIW, Year of the Griffin is the sequel to Dark Lord of Derkholm, which was based on her Tough Guide to Fantasyland. (IMHO, DLoD was much better than its sequel, especially if you've read TGtF.)

Kjbartolotta · Sep 16, 2017

Mmm. Godly snacks.

Roxxsmom · Sep 16, 2017

Marian Perera said:
Sure. But then I watched Eragon.

And before that I'd read a lot of McCaffrey and Dragonlance books, so I was starting to burn out on the dragons whose main purpose was to be mounts for people. Now, it has to be done really well for me to pick up a book with this trope.

Eragon, especially the movie, is one of those things I try to forget.

Maybe the interesting question is really why some people love certain tropes so much that they can't get enough of them and will eagerly devour books that incorporate them (even books like Eragon), no matter how common, be it vampires, tame dragons, quasi medieval settings, chosen ones or whatever, while other readers get tired of something after they've read just a couple and eagerly search for something as different as possible. It may be some innate difference in neophilia versus preferring comfort and familiarity.

Neither is right or wrong, of course. I'm sort of in between. There are some tropes I do get very tired of, or need periodic breaks from (and some I find downright problematic or offensive, like women falling in love with their rapists when it's not presented as Stockholm syndrome), and I do like to try new kinds of stories sometimes. But I get in moods when I want my "comfort food" reading too. And there are limits for my tolerance for how different or out there a fantasy story can be and still be interesting or relatable to me.

Brightdreamer said:
In Robin Hobb's Liveship Traders series, the queen dragon had very strong opinions about the idea of humans riding on dragons: she'd carry them in her claws if need be, but never consent to be ridden. (Mercedes Lackey, in her Elvenbane books, also demonstrated the less-than-ideal situation a rider would be in, clinging to a dragon in flight...)

And even in the Rain Wild chronicles (and her last Fitz and Fool trilogy), where some of the dragons (but not all) did consent to be ridden, it was the humans (the ones they'd transformed Elderlings) who were "pets," not the dragons.

I'm pretty sure Hobb modeled the attitude dragons had about "their" humans after the way breeders of show dogs generally feel about their charges. They do love their dogs, often fiercely, but they have a right to shape them into whatever they want them to be (even if it hurts them) and to control their lives in every way, and woe betide anyone who tells them what they're doing is wrong.

PyriteFool · Sep 16, 2017

Roxxsmom said:
Maybe the interesting question is really why some people love certain tropes so much that they can't get enough of them and will eagerly devour books that incorporate them, no matter how numerous, be it vampires, tame dragons, quasi medieval settings, chosen ones or whatever, while other readers get tired of something after they've read just a couple and eagerly search for something as different as possible. It may be some innate difference in neophilia versus preferring comfort and familiarity.

Neither is right or wrong, of course. I'm sort of in between. There are some tropes I do get very tired of, or need periodic breaks from (and some I find downright problematic or offensive, like women falling in love with their rapists when it's not presented as Stockholm syndrome), and I do like to try new kinds of stories sometimes. But I get in moods when I want my "comfort food" reading too

I get this feeling too. It seems like so long as the trope is not morally reprehensible on some level (cf: monocultures, the rapist thing) then it comes down to personal taste or even mood. I'm mostly amused that the fantasy genre, something inherently based on un-reality and imagination, even has "standard tropes." I don't mean that in a judge-y way either, I think it just speaks to how much we as people love our security blankets. We crave familiarity even in worlds that are necessarily unfamiliar.

Fantasy is a cool genre.

Marian Perera · Sep 16, 2017

PyriteFool said:
I get this feeling too. It seems like so long as the trope is not morally reprehensible on some level (cf: monocultures, the rapist thing) then it comes down to personal taste or even mood.

Even if the trope is morally reprehensible, it comes down to personal taste. I know of readers who enjoyed a romance where the "hero" arranged for a woman to be kidnapped and gang-raped as revenge on her family (he changed his mind just as the gang was forcing her legs apart, and made them stop). It doesn't mean the readers are wrong or that their moral standards are questionable; it could just mean other aspects of the story were enjoyable enough that readers were willing to ignore the problematic parts, or didn't take them too seriously.

PyriteFool · Sep 16, 2017

Marian Perera said:
Even if the trope is morally reprehensible, it comes down to personal taste. I know of readers who enjoyed a romance where the "hero" arranged for a woman to be kidnapped and gang-raped as revenge on her family (he changed his mind just as the gang was forcing her legs apart, and made them stop). It doesn't mean the readers are wrong or that their moral standards are questionable; it could just mean other aspects of the story were enjoyable enough that readers were willing to ignore the problematic parts, or didn't take them too seriously.

Fair enough! I was more noting there seems to be a trend here of people not liking the morally questionable tropes without the balancing of "but I loveX!" showing up. I also wonder if acknowledgement of the moral issues makes a difference? Like in your example, the guy apparently had a change of heart so clearly the author knew there were limits. And it gives the readers and easy "out" for the ethical issues. I don't think I've ever seen a monoculture trope where the author then pointed out "this is actually kinda racist guys."

ManWithTheMetalArm · Sep 16, 2017

Marian Perera said:
Even if the trope is morally reprehensible, it comes down to personal taste. I know of readers who enjoyed a romance where the "hero" arranged for a woman to be kidnapped and gang-raped as revenge on her family (he changed his mind just as the gang was forcing her legs apart, and made them stop). It doesn't mean the readers are wrong or that their moral standards are questionable; it could just mean other aspects of the story were enjoyable enough that readers were willing to ignore the problematic parts, or didn't take them too seriously.

It just kind of depends of what kind of story you're telling and what your world is like. For example, the first three Warcraft games, and by extension, World of Warcraft, you'll find nearly every fantasy trope under the sun. However, these games use that as a vector to poke fun at those tropes by having a cartoony art style and playing their stories completely straight to emphasize the silliness of it all. Can't tell you how many times the name of a quest in WoW has made me giggle.

As for the whole moral issue, that can get pretty complicated, since morality is subjective. In your example, there is clearly a situation where the "moral" option is the better one, and for quite obvious reasons. However, there are some situations where the concept of "morality" needs to be thrown out the window in order to do the right thing. What if you need to kill someone in order to ensure they don't hurt a ton of people? What if subjecting someone to a series of horrible test and experiments is going to develop a cure to stop a plague? What if using an enemy's own power against them, no matter how corrupting that power may be, is the best way to stop them? These are things you really have to think hard about, as the right choice may not always be the "moral" choice.

Roxxsmom · Sep 16, 2017

Marian Perera said:
Even if the trope is morally reprehensible, it comes down to personal taste. I know of readers who enjoyed a romance where the "hero" arranged for a woman to be kidnapped and gang-raped as revenge on her family (he changed his mind just as the gang was forcing her legs apart, and made them stop). It doesn't mean the readers are wrong or that their moral standards are questionable; it could just mean other aspects of the story were enjoyable enough that readers were willing to ignore the problematic parts, or didn't take them too seriously.

We like what we like, and who among us doesn't enjoy something that many others find horrifying? And who doesn't give some problematic things a pass if they like the rest of the story enough. I've certainly read stories that contained elements I found troubling, but the rest of the story was good enough that I tried to blot out the icky parts. Actually, it's a rare book that doesn't make me wince at some point.

Rape is more than a little wince, though, especially when it's portrayed as romantic or sexy. There are still too many people out there who think that victims ask for it, or that men do it because they "can't help themselves," or that women mostly make false allegations, or that if they're persistent enough, a no will turn into a yes. I wonder how many women accept abuse or think that what happened to them wasn't assault, or was somehow their fault, because of the cultural messages reinforced by books, movies, TV and so on.

In some ways, I think rape is worse than murder, because I think most of us can think of situations when we'd think it was justifiable, or at least understandable, for a person to kill someone. I really can't think of a situation where that is true of rape.

It's a complex issue, because anyone can say the same about almost anything they don't like (and by their definition of harm, they may even be correct). There are lots of tropes can encourage some people to do things, or have attitudes, that are harmful to others. Everyone has to draw their own line for being a fan of problematic things, obviously, but some are going to be pretty upsetting and make some people wonder about the values of the people who enjoy them.

Confession: I Like Fantasy Tropes-What are your favorites/least favorites?

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