My character said something sexist - but I'm not sexist

Blinkk · Sep 12, 2017

Nate is manipulating a handmaiden to spill information. Nate is explaining (sort of bragging a little bit) about how he got the handmaiden to talk. This comment may not be a ten on the richter scale, but it does encourages the gossipy, female stereotype. The moment I typed it out, I felt like deleting it. I'm a woman, and it bothers me when people think of women as the gossipy, high stressed, annoying, female stereotype. Here's what the character said:

“How did you find out about the weapon?”

“James said something weird about leaving his bullet pouch behind. It got me curious, so I wandered over to the High Priestess’ wing. One of Joline’s handmaidens was finicking about moving this gigantic rug, so I asked her if I could help. I mentioned the demon, then shut the hell up and helped her move the rug. Give a stressed woman a chance to speak. You can learn a lot that way.”

I realized then Nate is a little bit sexist. I think I just developed a character that views women as gossipy, b*tchy, annoying, and chatty. He's figured out how to manipulate women. There are a few other points in the novel where Nate interacts with women in a way that toes the line. I never intended to write a character with that underlying tone of sexism, but that's definitely who he turned into.

So...here's my question: Have you ever written a character who has morals and values that you don't agree with? Nate's way of manipulating women is natural to him and it doesn't bother him at all. He brags about it once or twice. It's very subtle, but Nate always views it in a positive light. It bothers me as the author. I don't agree with him. But if I change it, he won't be Nate anymore.

Has anyone else run into this before?

cornflake · Sep 12, 2017

Nah. I mean if my character kills people for sport you can guess...

:gone:

Maryn · Sep 12, 2017

I think the writer is fully obligated to write characters who are sometimes horrid people with thoughts and actions the author disapproves. Otherwise there won't my thrillers and mysteries, right?

It seems the bigger worry here might not be Nate's actions in this instance but his overall use of women and reinforcement of negative stereotypes. If you can't change Nate without gutting him as a character, you can consider adding a character who calls him on it when s/he learns of it, or hears him bragging.

underpope · Sep 12, 2017

Blinkk said:
So...here's my question: Have you ever written a character who has morals and values that you don't agree with? Nate's way of manipulating women is natural to him and it doesn't bother him at all. He brags about it once or twice. It's very subtle, but Nate always views it in a positive light. It bothers me as the author. I don't agree with him. But if I change it, he won't be Nate anymore.

Has anyone else run into this before?

I once wrote a story that had, as a secondary character, someone who was racist and sexist, on top of being lazy and an all-around despicable person. The story was well-received by my crit group, who knows that he didn't represent me at all.

Maryn said:
I think the writer is fully obligated to write characters who are sometimes horrid people with thoughts and actions the author disapproves. Otherwise there won't my thrillers and mysteries, right?

It seems the bigger worry here might not be Nate's actions in this instance but his overall use of women and reinforcement of negative stereotypes. If you can't change Nate without gutting him as a character, you can consider adding a character who calls him on it when s/he learns of it, or hears him bragging.

^^ This makes sense. That same story was told from the viewpoint of the rotten character's wife, who would react to his general boorishness and awfulness, if only in her own mind. I think that this lessened the impact of the racist/sexist/awful character to a large degree.

Roxxsmom · Sep 12, 2017

I agree that we can (and should) create characters who aren't mirrors of us. Most readers understand that a writer who creates a murderer isn't a murderer themselves and doesn't condone murder. I think it can be harder when the unpleasant trait is, like sexism, something that is more widespread and everyday, though. Enough people feel that women are gossipy in real life that it is possible for a reader to assume that the author feels this way, especially if the narrative is limited third person. It's easier for most readers to remember that the opinions and beliefs peppering a first-person narrative are in the voice of the pov character. Even so, some readers will assume that the writer is using the character as a spokesperson for their own everyday peeves (whether it be about the opposite gender, kids, dogs, fat people, or whatever).

One way to handle this problem is to have the pov character's views challenged at some point. It can be by another character who (if the pov character states their views) disagrees with them or reacts badly to them as a consequence of their behavior. I read a book once with a "benignly" sexist (as in patronizing and "protective" of women) pov character, and he was genuinely clueless about why so many women seemed to resent him. It was pretty obvious to me, however. Another is to encounter situations that are so at odds with their world view that it's hard to miss. Say a man thinks women can't do math, but later in the book he encounters a woman who is better at it than he is. Another is to have negative consequences of some kind result from that view.

It can be especially challenging if one is writing a story set in a culture or setting where such views go largely unchallenged, though. It's still possible to show consequences, though the effect may go over some readers' heads. For instance, say there's a book set in a culture with slavery, and the pov character takes it for granted. There can be little ways the author can show consequences, such as the extreme fear that most slaves live with, and to show the way many in the society abuse their power in various subtle (and not so subtle) ways.

Blinkk · Sep 12, 2017

underpope said:
^^ This makes sense. That same story was told from the viewpoint of the rotten character's wife, who would react to his general boorishness and awfulness, if only in her own mind. I think that this lessened the impact of the racist/sexist/awful character to a large degree.

This may be what I'm missing, then. Nate gets away with the way he interacts with women and no one ever comments or corrects it. Like in your example, someone is responding negatively to those bad actions. Nate has no one who ever holds him to higher standards - again because it doesn't bother him. All in all, Nate isn't a despicable guy, though. He's the secondary MC. Really important dude. He's supposed to be likeable, and he ends up making a huge sacrifice to help the MC accomplish his goal. He just has this strain of sexism every now and again.

I think it's harder to write a likeable character with one subtle flaw, than to write a bad dislikable character with many big flaws. Writing evil comes easy to me. Writing good guys with one element that bothers me is draining. Who would've thunk?

BethS · Sep 12, 2017

Blinkk said:
So...here's my question: Have you ever written a character who has morals and values that you don't agree with?

Of course.

You don't want your characters to be little copies of you. You have to let them be who they are, even if that's uncomfortable to you. Allowing that will not only populate your novel with characters who act and think like real people, but it also opens up great possibilities for conflict.

Let Nate be himself. And who knows, maybe one day he'll meet a woman who changes all his preconceived notions.

Maze Runner · Sep 12, 2017

We've all got less than admirable traits. If we think of our own, we might be able to trace them back to a cause. If you can figure out why Nate is this way, it might make both you and the reader have more empathy for him.

rwm4768 · Sep 12, 2017

I wouldn't worry about it if it's appropriate to the character and the setting. The worlds and characters we create do not have to conform to today's societal standards. Maybe if your entire story is a sexist mess, you might have a problem, but otherwise it's not worth worrying about.

hereticdoll · Sep 12, 2017

rwm4768 said:
The worlds and characters we create do not have to conform to today's societal standards.

I agree. If we get to the point where fiction is policed to real world standards, it is only a couple steps away from Fahrenheit 451.

Blinkk, if you are concerned about the characters being offensive, look to Sherrilyn Kenyon for example. She has written a lot of content pertaining to child abuse/rape, but her feedback has been relatively good in the urban fantasy community (especially with women). I don't think this would be the case if her readers associated her directly with her characters.

Beanie5 · Sep 12, 2017

Write real people anything else is boring.

p.s. do you know what to do when you find the dragons?

mccardey · Sep 12, 2017

Blinkk said:
Writing good guys with one element that bothers me is draining. Who would've thunk?

~~Good grief - you're going to have to work on that if you want to make a career.~~

I think it's harder to write a likeable character with one subtle flaw, than to write a bad dislikable character with many big flaws. Writing evil comes easy to me. Writing good guys with one element that bothers me is draining. Who would've thunk?

Oh, I see! I misunderstood you!

Carry on, then

mafiaking1936 · Sep 13, 2017

I'd say keep on with it. The best characters are the ones with traits the flow naturally and advance the story. If it makes sense for a character to come out as one way that serves both these goals, that's golden. And they usually end up more interesting since they don't come across as predetermined. Plus you can use those traits further down the line if you need to.

benbenberi · Sep 13, 2017

Writing a character with asshole traits is only a problem if all the characters share the same asshole trait and the author is apparently either blind to it or endorsing it.

Writing an individual character who has some asshole in him is perfectly fine. Even if he doesn't get punished for it. Assholes exist. People who are mostly good but partly asshole are everywhere. Why shouldn't they show up in your fiction too?

Cindyt · Sep 13, 2017

Let characters be who they want to be. I'm in all my characters, but none are all me.

Blinkk · Sep 13, 2017

Okay, I guess I'm worrying about this a little too much. I'm gonna let it go. I'll let Nate be the character he's going to be. Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I've got a better idea on how to approach this now.

Roxxsmom · Sep 13, 2017

Another way to let characters be themselves without appearing to share (or condone) their world view is to show the internal contradictions within their world view. They always seem to be present with bigots.

For example, in a culture with segregation or apartheid, where people of color aren't allowed to use the same restrooms as white people, nor to enter their homes via the front door, yet they clean white peoples' restrooms and raise their children.

And many men who think women are frivolous as a class are very good at compartmentalizing, so they think their strong and intelligent sister/mother/daughter is an "exception" to the rule. It never seems to occur to them that if they know several intelligent, strong women, that such women may not be terribly rare. humans in general are good at compartmentalizing. Show the cognitive dissonance that comes from a character's world view, and how they deal with it. This goes for characters whose views we share also.

The latter is actually much harder.

Toothpaste · Sep 13, 2017

I guess to me my question is: what is the point of him being sexist? You say he just started speaking this way, but you're still the one who wrote it. He's not a real guy. You made a decision, conscious or not. So what's the purpose of having a likeable main character be a sexist? Is it to show that even heroes are flawed? Is it to demonstrate a common attitude in the society you are writing about? You also say no one calls him on it because it doesn't bother him. But sexist people rarely are bothered by being sexist. They don't even realise they are. People call them out on it because they think it's wrong. So is the reason no one calls him out on it because they agree with him? Because they are scared of him? Because they've heard it over and over: "Yeah yeah, and all women are irrational and scared of mice, we know you think that, you say it often enough, anyway can you help me with this door or not?"?

Ask yourself why you feel it necessary to perpetuate negative stereotypes and if there is a point to it then keep on. But if it's just a "neat character trait", I'd reconsider. Because sexism still exists. Such stereotypes still exist. And there are men and women alike still believe them. And they might be reading your book. And they might think, "Oh man, so true." And do you really want to reinforce that their beliefs are true? However, someone challenging a character who thinks like that though? That could be an interesting light bulb moment to such a reader.

Anyway, food for thought. It's early days yet, keep on writing, but think about it.

ETA: I should add, if he's a typical stereotypical tough dude who thinks highly of himself and who is good with the ladies, yes that thread of sexism often exists in such a trope, but think how fun it would be to subvert it, that the braggart arrogant charming rascal is actually totally open minded and against such sexist behaviour - that sounds kind of fun to me

.

Blinkk · Sep 13, 2017

Toothpaste said:
I guess to me my question is: what is the point of him being sexist? You say he just started speaking this way, but you're still the one who wrote it. He's not a real guy. You made a decision, conscious or not. So what's the purpose of having a likeable main character be a sexist? Is it to show that even heroes are flawed? Is it to demonstrate a common attitude in the society you are writing about? You also say no one calls him on it because it doesn't bother him. But sexist people rarely are bothered by being sexist. They don't even realise they are. People call them out on it because they think it's wrong. So is the reason no one calls him out on it because they agree with him? Because they are scared of him? Because they've heard it over and over: "Yeah yeah, and all women are irrational and scared of mice, we know you think that, you say it often enough, anyway can you help me with this door or not?"?

Ask yourself why you feel it necessary to perpetuate negative stereotypes and if there is a point to it then keep on. But if it's just a "neat character trait", I'd reconsider. Because sexism still exists. Such stereotypes still exist. And there are men and women alike still believe them. And they might be reading your book. And they might think, "Oh man, so true." And do you really want to reinforce that their beliefs are true? However, someone challenging a character who thinks like that though? That could be an interesting light bulb moment to such a reader.

Anyway, food for thought. It's early days yet, keep on writing, but think about it.

That's the interesting thing, though. His character just came out like that. I never planned to write him that way, but the more he grew off the page and the more he matured, that little bit of sexim came out. It caught me by surprise. Weirdly enough, it fits him nicely, and it probably helps his personality trait that we are in a setting where a lot of men view women this same way. You nailed it - he doesn't even realize the way he's talking about/treating women is insulting. The interesting part is that he actually is very good with women. A few women find him quite approachable and they like to be around him. He makes them feel comfortable. If we really dive deep into the character, it's a power thing for him. He fights in a temple squadron and he's the skinniest guy on his team. He's got to compensate in other ways, so he's learned how to be good with people. He brags more than once that he's good at getting information out of people, just by talking to them. He's got that talent going for him. It makes him valuable in a social circle where physical strength is a currency he doesn't quite have.

However, as a woman myself, I find his way of treating women a little sexist. Not in an overly-noticeable or brashly insulting way, but if a guy ever spoke about me the way Nate speaks about his manipulating women to "spill their secrets" I'd be annoyed. I suppose that's why Nate doesn't see it as a bad thing. It makes him valuable to his squadron. He's good with people, especially with women. He uses that to gather important information.

Wow, thanks for all your questions. This is making me dig deep into why this little detail surfaced. I like analyzing the psychology of this character. I'm going to have to think on this and decide how I want to conclude this. Leave Nate as he is? Have someone call him out? Have him explain his flaws to a person? Challenge him in some other way? I'm going to think on this a little more.

Blinkk · Sep 13, 2017

Roxxsmom said:
Another way to let characters be themselves without appearing to share (or condone) their world view is to show the internal contradictions within their world view. They always seem to be present with bigots.

For example, in a culture with segregation or apartheid, where people of color aren't allowed to use the same restrooms as white people, nor to enter their homes via the front door, yet they clean white peoples' restrooms and raise their children.

And many men who think women are frivolous as a class are very good at compartmentalizing, so they think their strong and intelligent sister/mother/daughter is an "exception" to the rule. It never seems to occur to them that if they know several intelligent, strong women, that such women may not be terribly rare. humans in general are good at compartmentalizing. Show the cognitive dissonance that comes from a character's world view, and how they deal with it. This goes for characters whose views we share also.

The latter is actually much harder.

This is actually great advice. I'm trying to see if I can work something like this into my novel, but I'm not quite sure this is the novel for that. I am toying with the idea of writing a stand-alone short story about Nate and he get challenged in this way in the short story. I really, really like your latter example.

I'm going to chew on this a little more.

Toothpaste · Sep 13, 2017

My pleasure! It's fun to dig deep. And I get that he came formed like this, but you still created him. That's what I meant also about unconscious or even subconscious decisions. There is a reason there even if we don't know it yet, lol.

And it might be a bit too cliche, but there's always the trope of meeting a woman who he's trying to impress calling him out on his behaviour. Or it might be as simple as doing the usual tricks he does assuming women are all one way and it failing because not all women are the same. In fact, what if he gets into trouble or is taken advantage of because of his sexist assumptions. Of course it can be a very small call out too. Doesn't have to be profoundly meaningful. Lots of ideas.

cbenoi1 · Sep 13, 2017

Is Nate sexist just because he ends up this way, or does that weakness plays in the overall plot? In other words, is being a sexist gets him ever deeper into trouble? If not, you may want to find some other weakness.

Also, you may want to match that weakness with some parallel redeeming quality. Nate is a sexist but loving, loyal but unforgiving, etc.

-cb

BethS · Sep 14, 2017

Blinkk said:
I'm going to have to think on this and decide how I want to conclude this. Leave Nate as he is? Have someone call him out? Have him explain his flaws to a person? Challenge him in some other way? I'm going to think on this a little more. .

You don't actually have to decide in advance. Just keep writing and see what happens. The consequences of his thoughts and behavior will confront him eventually and maybe in a way that you could never have anticipated.

fairybee · Sep 14, 2017

I think if the thing you're worried about is sending a bad message, one way to handle it is to make sure it doesn't benefit him.

One of my characters is definitely sexist. There's a point where, out of anger, he insults a female character in the worst, most personal way he can think of, in an attempt to cause emotional harm. He doesn't comment on her gender at all, but he does assume that because she's a woman she will break down and cry. She socks him in the nose. What he was doing was already pretty terrible, and whether he was sexist or not, she would have thrown that punch. But if he'd thought of her as an equal instead of "a woman who will probably just cry", he might have thought to keep his distance.

It doesn't have to be violence or a Feminism 101 speech! Just get him into trouble. Put him in situations where his beliefs clearly don't hold up and it makes things difficult for him. I think of sexism as just another bad choice my character has made (whether or not it's completely intentional).

Roxxsmom · Sep 14, 2017

BethS said:
You don't actually have to decide in advance. Just keep writing and see what happens. The consequences of his thoughts and behavior will confront him eventually and maybe in a way that you could never have anticipated.

This is excellent advice. I know I most often have to write things through to discover how they could plausibly play out. I also sometimes discover flaws I didn't intend, like a character I planned on presenting as simply "insecure" is actually creepy and controlling.

My character said something sexist - but I'm not sexist

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