Opinions on conlangs?

I studied linguistics to a point, so I do get antsy with books where the language is just randomly scrambled letters. It shows, even to most casual readers. The words don't fit or have morphemes which aren't consistent.

I've seen some absolutely terrible advice on other forums or fb groups, eg "Just take a foreign language you like and change a few letters here and there"-- faceplam. Please, for love of cthulhu, don't do this.

If you can't do it well, can't pay someone to do it, and it's not a significant plot point, then I would avoid. Alternatively, some authors do pay for professionals to conlang or at least edit their conlangs, and there's no shame in doing so. We pay regular editors and proofreaders as a matter of course for the MS in general, or get that done through a press if published already. I would see that as no different.

I do want to have a conlang for one of mine. It's very plot relevant, and some things about it will be easier than normal. It doesn't need to be "imperfect" for example--in fact, it has to be a perfect language--and it can suffer for ease of use and learnability. (Usually, ease of use and imperfections are things to complicating things to put in for conlangs.) It will require an absolutely enormous lexicon.

I'm a pretty crappy language learner. I took French and it was a giant struggle and the last time I was in Paris, I didn't speak a word of it. I do think that what I ended up actually learning in the process was, in retrospect, a better understanding of the Proto-Indo-European basis for English. And a few more phonemes that I can pronounce.

For my most recent projects where I've indulged my urge to actually write up a bunch of notes, it felt extremely critical to have some semblence of conlang for my fantasy story. What would an Elvish language sound like, thus, what would the Elvish cities be named? Whereas the future populated solely by humans doesn't really feel like it's worth doing any conlang effort.

I tend to think that conlang is kind of like the rest of the notes that one can type up for a genre story. You end up kinda wanting to understand the timeline, obligatory bits of technology/magic, cultures, et al. But your average reader doesn't care to actually see ten appendices that they have to understand for the story to make sense. I mean, I don't want to have to learn Italian to understand a book set in Italy either. So the guide has always been to write a book's worth of backstory and then... more or less... throw it out.

But, as a reader, I think I respond best to the stories that pleasantly dance around a non-existent conlang than a bad faux-conlang (comic-book style adding apostrophes randomly, mashing the keyboard, or substituting a few letters from an existing language). Whereas the books where there's some evidence of real conlanging (or otherwise really good cases of the author doing their homework) I kinda want to see more of those inconsequential details, for fun. Less as a "Here's the book, if you buy the eBook there's a fifty page appendix" more as a "Hey, I threw up some notes on my website, probably nobody cares, but if you really want to speak slimy eel, here's how"

For my writing right now, I think the part that's helped has been working out a proper phonetic inventory and a set of vague rules for how to combine phonomes into syllables and words, so as to better appreciate and control how a culture's things sound. And I feel like the development of the words, even independent of grammar, has been useful for figuring out how people where their native language isn't the story's vernacular are going to screw up their sentences. And I'd tend to think that the development of the internet conlang community makes this whole thing much easier today than in Tolkein's day, which both means that it's easier for the writer but also means that your readers might have more conlang enthusiast readers as well.

Also, for my writing right now, I've actually really enjoyed the process of understanding lingustics and conlang better. There's getting to be a long list of naturalistic plot points that came because I was hunting through lingustic resources.

The issue with Martin is less his conlang, and more his portrayal of the Westerosi Common Tongue. Dornishmen and Wildings should not be speaking a mutually intelligible language.

1. Do you like conlangs in your fantasy/science fiction or does it just feel like homework?


I like conlangs. I spend a bit too much time extending the conlang I write for my fantasy series...


That being said, I don't usually try to fully learn the conlang out of books I'm reading. (Never mind that I did try to learn Tolkien's Sindarin Elvish. I didn't get very far, but I have a book that discusses his languages). I do enjoy when it's sprinkled throughout a story, and I very much like seeing songs in conlangs (Skyrim's "Tale of Tongues," for example, though I can't say what the words mean), and when readers can start picking up what certain words mean and piece together bits of world building info from that.


2. If you do like conlangs, is there an extent to how much should be in the book? For example, maybe a couple lines for spell-casting, versus natives just talking to each-other in the tongue.


I think it depends on the book, and how relevant they are to the plot. For example, I have a short story I wrote specifically so I could use the conlang. (It's the basis of their magic system). In that, any spells were fully written in the conlang, and there were certain common phrases and words throughout the story as well. However, since the character fully understood them, I also included the translation, since the reader should know as much of what's going on as the main character, and I didn't want to make readers who aren't interested in conlangs suffer through it.


In a longer story, same world, but where the characters aren't as familiar with that type of magic, I tried to make it so that it depends on the characters as to how much you actually see. One character who is fascinated with it will see all of the conlang... even though she won't get a full translation because she doesn't know the language. I put it there in the hopes that someone may try to figure it out later, and if they do, they'll be rewarded with little inside clues. But since I don't expect everyone to do that, I try not to overdo it with the inclusion of the language. It's important for that character, though, because the magic is very precise, and the wrong word can botch a spell, which is what happens during the course of the story. For other characters who aren't as interested in learning the language, they may just say that the characters were speaking in that language, and not try to give the reader any sort of translation.

On a note of stories that aren't my own, I've just started reading Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, and I enjoy the fantasy language he has sprinkled throughout. The way it's used seems to add mystery and worldbuilding. I'm not sure how fully developed it is, since I'm not quite halfway through the first book, but I enjoy how it's used.

3. If the conlang is extensive, as in hundreds of words that are not used in the novel-should those words be listed in the back or is it unnecessary?


I haven't included a list of words in the stories (yet), and I wouldn't do that for the whole language. There would be too much there, and a lot of grammatical rules to explain... and phonetics... If I ever get to that point, I may just write a companion guide for people who really want to know what all is being said, and don't want to try deciphering it. (Though I'm not sure how many people would actually be interested in such a guide).


That being said, I'm not a linguist, and the conlang I've created is far from perfect, but I have a lot of fun creating it. (Especially songs... I find it really fun to create fantasy culture-based songs in English, then translate them into the conlang).

hereticdoll said:

I wanted to get some thoughts of what you all think about constructed languages. So I will list a couple questions.

1. Do you like conlangs in your fantasy/science fiction or does it just feel like homework?
2. If you do like conlangs, is there an extent to how much should be in the book? For example, maybe a couple lines for spell-casting, versus natives just talking to each-other in the tongue.
3. If the conlang is extensive, as in hundreds of words that are not used in the novel-should those words be listed in the back or is it unnecessary?

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My opinion is that if you don't have studies in how a language ticks. Try not doing it. If you do it, keep it to a minimum. As few times a donkey brays, as unnoticed he will be. That doesn't mean I dislike conlangs but my experience is that they all too often aren't done well.

And if you were to do it fairly extensive, but not use it at the same time, then have either the character or a footnote explain it on the double. if it's whole conversations, have someone or the narrative translate or paraphrase.

Most of us aren't Tolkien, who spent a lifetime studying just how languages work. So my particular skill in creating a language would be far inferior, and I think most of us are in the same position. On the other hand, if it's necessary to the story to show characters speaking in a new language, it's best not to leave it as "Blah, blah, ooga, booga."

The main thing is for authors not to believe they have linguistic skills they don't actually posses.

hereticdoll said:

Yes, this irritated me to no end. Especially when you consider isolation/usage for different regions.

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It's a trope for obvious reasons that people in fantasy have "common tongues." A chapter full of "we made unintelligible signs at each other until someone tracked down an interpreter" is fairly dull.

I like conlangs in my fantasy stories but to a degree. Utilizing the right amount of conlang is perfect, but if an author were to dump their fictional language like it's a miscalculated amount of cake batter, then I lose all patience. I understand making up a language is difficult and one wants to show it off, but an author should respect their audience and tell a story, not lecture a fictional language. In addition, conlangs should be tied into the narrative and worldbuilding. If an author has created a race where they can speak the "Common Tounge" but with a mixture of their native language, that's fine. A good example of that in real life is Spanglish - happens to my Mom a lot. If an author has created an extensive dictionary of their conlang, then perhaps the author could add a glossary of sorts to add some "inside knowledge" feeling for the reader. Nonetheless, conlangs, especially in fantasy, should be used carefully and definitely be applied without the author's ego getting in the way.

Try this. Get a New American Heritage Dictionary and go to the table of indoeuropean roots. There are roughly 1500 of them listed. Each root is at the foundation of a whole range of meaning from the abstract to the concrete. Like the "gr" in English that is a key sound in words related to...well...growing, grow, grain, great; or wr for things related to the idea of being turned: wrist, wrench, wring, wrought, wrest, etc. Read up on the different ways suffixes, and ablauts and the like modified the foundational roots...sometimes creating new roots, then just model on that.

Lets say you wanted a core concept of brightness/luster. There is an entry for that idea somewhere in the index. In English we have the gl set (glisten, glitter, glint...) you pick a different sound for that concept, lets try TSN. This would be your zero grade form. Start modifying according to some pattern or set of patterns (TiSN, ToSN, TuSN; iTSNa, oTSNa. To keep playing lets say the first set of variants mark distance: Tisn, the very near thing that glints;Tusn the very far thing that glints. Now you play parade of history and imagine this people living in sight of snow capped mountains, So Tsun is the basic concept for what the daylight look's like flashing of the ice of a distant glacier or sunlit snow covered peak. They could just have easily applied this to the sight of white caps on breakers rolling in from the sea...but they don't know about the sea. So, Tsuna (a indicating an object associated with the abstract concept) would mean, that which glints, which eventually becomes the word for clear ice. Now you can add a comparative variant. Maybe Ch as a prefix signifies likeness/similarity giving you Chtsuna/chitsuna=gistening shiny like ice. Give it a few more centuries and someone accidentally discovers shiny bits of melted silicate/sand...What do you call it, why its Chitasuna which over more years gets worn down to Chitsun, your language's new word for glass. Speed by another thousand years and the language has undergone a major sound shift. The initial C gets lost in the H and the end vowel mellows. Now you have Hitsen as your word for glass.

There are tables of austronesian language roots, Semitic roots, etc. You can use any that you like as a model, or pick and choose the features you like of each protolanguage and mix and match to get your foundation, then build from there as needed.

I think that peppering references to your fictional nationalities and cultures is totally cool, but it's something that should be done sparingly unless you really, really know what you're doing. GRRM is pretty good at this, he only gives us enough glimpses of Valyrian to make it clear that it's really a language in this universe and not glorified baby speak, but he doesn't go so far to create a glossary for it.

To go that far you should atleast have formal education in the construction of language. Or else you will be picked apart by the internet.