Opinions on conlangs?

I think if you do it beyond random, occasional names for things, you'd best get it right, which is an entire thing unto itself. It's not easy to create a language -- don't go down that path if you're not a linguist, basically, imo.

hereticdoll said:

I wanted to get some thoughts of what you all think about constructed languages. So I will list a couple questions.

1. Do you like conlangs in your fantasy/science fiction or does it just feel like homework?
2. If you do like conlangs, is there an extent to how much should be in the book? For example, maybe a couple lines for spell-casting, versus natives just talking to each-other in the tongue.
3. If the conlang is extensive, as in hundreds of words that are not used in the novel-should those words be listed in the back or is it unnecessary?

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I'll just answer the questions you provided. Of course, the answers are provided according to my personal opinion and taste, as always.

1. I like conlangs, they add a layer of realism to the story, IMO. Of course, that's only when the story dictates it, no need to force it.
2. I like the use to be subtle, rather than overwhelming. Use it when the story requires it, and don't overuse it.
3. I don't really mind. But I do think it's kind of unnecessary and puts too much focus on the conlang (whereas I view it as a tool). I'd prefer it to be naturally unveiled during the story, whenever necessary.

I think a spattering of a few words here and there for flavor is ok. But when it gets to having to look up the meaning of the words, that pulls me out of the story. I don't want to be pulled out of the story or try to guess what the character is talking about.

That said, a glossary in the back can be fun. Because it is a "bonus" item. Anything extra that adds to the story I've just read is nice because it gives me a chance to stay connected to the world I have just visited for just a little while longer.

1) Both, but there have always been kinds of homework I enjoy more than others. I loved the conlang in Anathem, but couldn't even get started with the conmath.
2) Even if you have the most developed conlang imaginable, everything that can be translated should be. Whole conversations in conlang are exhausting.
3) Nah. Maybe as an online supplement.

Ambrosia said:

I think a spattering of a few words here and there for flavor is ok. But when it gets to having to look up the meaning of the words, that pulls me out of the story. I don't want to be pulled out of the story or try to guess what the character is talking about.

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Agreed. A scattering of conlang words can add a sense of mystery or the unknown to a world. Extended, untranslated dialogue in a language only the creator speaks makes my eyes cross. As much as I love Tolkien, the long poems in Quenya can be a little off-putting. There's nothing wrong with the author having an extended conlang as a foundation point, of course. I'm just leery of too much of it finding its way to the text.*

I would point to GRRM as an example of good use of conlang. Phrases such as valar morghulis or the title khaleesi worked to intrigue the reader without requiring glossary perusal or consultation with a linguist.

* I have a background in history, and my own inclination is to write extensive timelines and academic-style treatises on expansive backstory. This is beneficial for keeping a deep, immersive backstory for my world, I think, but I also know it would be of little interest to the average reader. Only the important bits make it to the text.

I've been dipping my toe into conlanging as well lately, but trying to keep it strictly to a naming language. Which is easy, because I have piles of notes from past poorly-constructed conlangs, and since the words never go beyond names of people and places (and very rarely things or concepts), it's been a pleasant and non-stressful experience. I get to know what all the names mean and how they relate to the characters, but don't have to actually do a good job of it.

I tend to feel like the illusion of a living, breathing world goes a long way, but, unless your a Tlon reconstructionist (very smart literary reference I'm making there ), it can run the risk of getting in the way of the storytelling. But, hey, I'm the kind of guy who buys out-of-print RPG books just to read them and get inspiration, I would never discourage supplemental material. A language guide written by the character sounds fun actually, especially if it adds a new wrinkle to the character you wouldn't see otherwise.

2. If you do like conlangs, is there an extent to how much should be in the book? For example, maybe a couple lines for spell-casting, versus natives just talking to each-other in the tongue.

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I'm trying to think of a case where the author gave line after line in the conlang. That strikes me as a dick move. I think first meetings between two linguistically alien cultures are interesting moments for this. By nature, both sides are speaking gibberish (especially if it's earth dwellers encountering an alien culture, as in Turtledove's Videssos books), so a little bit of conlang is expected. But it can't go on and on--what is the possible outcome for the reader beyond frustration?

As much as I love Tolkien, the long poems in Quenya can be a little off-putting.

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Ugh, yeah. Show me someone who read all those.... Even the greats can be self-indulgent. We get it, you invented complex languages and are far above us. (Then again, adding an "l" to "melon" doesn't make it less silly, so maybe that could have used more thought.)

I've always been curious how people come up with those signature words, say, the spell incantations and whatnot. I almost always know what the word will be and it doesn't take a lot of tinkering--there's just a sound combination that works. But I'm sure there are lots of ways different writers go about it.

It's my preference to avoid giving more than a few words here and there of a conlang.

If two characters who both understand it are speaking it, the writer can translate to English and simply mention they're speaking in whatever language the characters are "really" speaking that isn't the default one in the story. If one is speaking a language the pov character doesn't understand, then the pov character won't actually "hear" every word rendered in faithful detail. Try having someone speak a [paragraph, or even a sentence or two, in a language that's completely foreign to you and then try to transcribe it verbatim. You won't do a very accurate job of it. More like, "The man said something that sounded like, 'Alkey romey posh'," or, "The alien emitted a series of clicks, interspersed with melodious whistles."

If you're writing in omniscient, of course, you could take the Tolkien route and reproduce spoken passages accurately, even if the main character doesn't understand them. But you could also simply say that the character said something in the foreign language or that he said [translated] in his own tongue, but no one understood.

Conglanging well enough to create the syntax and grammar rules to produce passages of speech, and not just the simple vocabulary, is a lot of work and represents time spent on your world instead of writing your story. I'd only do it if it were something that utterly delights you and you don't mind it being lost on many readers. There are programs (like this one) that help writers create conlangs, but I don't know how well they work as far as real linguists are concerned.

Roxxsmom said:

If two characters who both understand it are speaking it, the writer can translate to English and simply mention they're speaking in whatever language the characters are "really" speaking that isn't the default one in the story. If one is speaking a language the pov character doesn't understand, then the pov character won't actually "hear" every word rendered in faithful detail. Try having someone speak a [paragraph, or even a sentence or two, in a language that's completely foreign to you and then try to transcribe it verbatim. You won't do a very accurate job of it. More like, "The man said something that sounded like, 'Alkey romey posh'," or, "The alien emitted a series of clicks, interspersed with melodious whistles."

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I have to second Roxxsmom's advice, the concepts detailed here are exactly what I meant when I said "don't overdo it." Make it so the conlang strengthens the story, not weakens it and makes it less believable. For every story there's a different right path, just find the one that complements your story the best. Make it about the story, not the conlang.

mpack said:

I would point to GRRM as an example of good use of conlang. Phrases such as valar morghulis or the title khaleesi worked to intrigue the reader without requiring glossary perusal or consultation with a linguist.

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I agree. I would also to point to GRRM as a great example for excellent, subtle use of conlang. Not too much, not too little, just as much as complements the story.

There are programs (like this one) that help writers create conlangs, but I don't know how well they work as far as real linguists are concerned.

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That's very interesting. My first reaction was, "why would you give up that act of creation to someone else?" Then my response was tempered by the fact that someone may not feel they have the skills to develop the conlang, so outsourcing it makes sense. But then doesn't the company become a sort of co-writer (or at least co-creator) of that fictional universe? Kind of an odd situation, it seems to me. How would you feel if a website produced all your characters' names? (Maybe there is one that does....)

I know a number of people who think GRRM isn't the greatest at conlanging. They point to numerous inconsistencies in word construction and in naming within his world. I tend to shrug some of the purists off, as real-world languages have plenty of inconsistencies, and any geographic area that's experienced waves of migration or been occupied by numerous people over centuries and millennia will have contrasting place (and personal) names. I sometimes imagine hard core fantasy fans sneering at our real world and its languages as an example of poor and inconsistent world building, were they to have their first exposure to it in the context of a story.

But whether or not he's done a good job, being no Professor Tolkien when it comes to philology hasn't stopped his books from from being popular.

Most of my conlanging, such that it is, is confined with coming up with words for things that are relevant to names of places and people, actually. For instance, maybe I have a town that's got a made-up name that means "white hill" or "South Port" in some other language.

I kinda have to squint my eye and avoid con langs; the exceptions are Tolkien and C. J. Cherryh.

Both of them had extensive backgrounds in linguistics and philology, and it shows.

Hi hereticdoll,

Here's my two cents.

1. Do you like conlangs in your fantasy/science fiction or does it just feel like homework?

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I love them, and especially when they're done well. When they're not, it's a chore.

2. If you do like conlangs, is there an extent to how much should be in the book? For example, maybe a couple lines for spell-casting, versus natives just talking to each-other in the tongue.

Click to expand...

I'm not a linguist, but I love language, so in my own work, I've been spare. I wrote a space opera book years ago I still tinker with where I developed a style and syntax for each of the main species. I wanted them each to reflect their own histories, without getting into them. Some of them have a shared history, so there's connective tissue. Some of them don't. I also wanted them to readily identifiable so the reader would know right off this new character is from X, while this one is from Y.

3. If the conlang is extensive, as in hundreds of words that are not used in the novel-should those words be listed in the back or is it unnecessary?

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I personally would never do this. My hope is through the story the meaning behind most of the conlang becomes illuminated. Two characters in this book speak only in their own tongue, though sparingly, so I have quite a few words for them. Most of them are explained through the story, either through another character translating (a cheat, but a helpful one) or the context of the particular scene (i.e. he's super angry or super sad, so this word must correlate).

hereticdoll said:

I wanted to get some thoughts of what you all think about constructed languages. So I will list a couple questions.

1. Do you like conlangs in your fantasy/science fiction or does it just feel like homework?
2. If you do like conlangs, is there an extent to how much should be in the book? For example, maybe a couple lines for spell-casting, versus natives just talking to each-other in the tongue.
3. If the conlang is extensive, as in hundreds of words that are not used in the novel-should those words be listed in the back or is it unnecessary?

Click to expand...

1. I do not design languages for my works, which I think is the core of your question. I don't do it because I'm not good at making up words. I understand languages, but whenever I try to make up a word from nothing it sounds Japanese. Every time. So I stopped.
2. If you have two characters speaking Spanish or French on the page and the POV character doesn't understand them but I do, I get something out of it. But I'm not going to learn a whole new language that you invented just to understand the jokes in your book. If you're putting in more than the occasional word, there had better be a really good reason.
3. If you've constructed your language right (and by right I mean "the way real languages behave"), no dictionary is going to be able to translate the conversations people have in that language. I'm having flashbacks to Eragon, where I realized pretty fast that the "language" was actually just a cipher for English using made-up words.

cornflake said:

I think if you do it beyond random, occasional names for things, you'd best get it right, which is an entire thing unto itself. It's not easy to create a language -- don't go down that path if you're not a linguist, basically, imo.

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This is what I thought when I saw that OP. I'm also going to expand on it--even if all you do is random, occasional names for things, you'd best get it right. Two people from two countries who grew up with two languages should have names that I look at and know immediately that they don't come from the same culture. You said you've done Italian, Sanskrit, and Japanese. I'd bet you'd be able to look at a word or name and know immediately which of those languages it belongs to. Same thing applies here. I recently read a book where I was told that people were speaking different languages, but all their names sounded like they came from the same language, or something that was the same language about a hundred years ago. Drove me nuts. This is why I blatantly use existing languages for my made-up worlds.

Roxxsmom said:

It's my preference to avoid giving more than a few words here and there of a conlang.

If two characters who both understand it are speaking it, the writer can translate to English and simply mention they're speaking in whatever language the characters are "really" speaking that isn't the default one in the story. If one is speaking a language the pov character doesn't understand, then the pov character won't actually "hear" every word rendered in faithful detail. Try having someone speak a [paragraph, or even a sentence or two, in a language that's completely foreign to you and then try to transcribe it verbatim. You won't do a very accurate job of it. More like, "The man said something that sounded like, 'Alkey romey posh'," or, "The alien emitted a series of clicks, interspersed with melodious whistles."

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This is a very good point. Even when the POV character understands the language, if they don't understand all of the language, they won't interpret it word for word. It would be more accurate to say "She was asking about the price of a room" than to translate the actual words they're saying. And if you go Roxxsmom's route for languages they don't speak a word of, again, you have to take the phonetic system into account--not just the speaker's, but the listener's.

Conglanging well enough to create the syntax and grammar rules to produce passages of speech, and not just the simple vocabulary, is a lot of work and represents time spent on your world instead of writing your story. I'd only do it if it were something that utterly delights you and you don't mind it being lost on many readers. There are programs (like this one) that help writers create conlangs, but I don't know how well they work as far as real linguists are concerned.

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I'm not a linguist, but I'm a serial language student. I didn't drill in too far, but I ran that site twice to check for common errors made by people who both aren't linguists and haven't studied upwards of twenty languages. It does, at least, have variations in the structure of the language--one of them didn't have definite articles but used "this" and "that"; one of them doesn't conjugate verbs; etc. And when I got to the dictionary, I could see that the words came from different phonetic systems, but the spot-check I did was internally consistent.

However, it's very clearly pulling from a list of programmed variations. Both languages I ran did the present perfect and present progressive using the same formula ("finish" before the verb for perfect, "be" before the verb for progressive). Both declined pronouns, which is just not that common in my experience; and it's less common considering one of those languages didn't conjugate verbs, even to indicate tense. Both had three genders for nouns--again, I'm not a linguist, but I have never seen a language that did this much to its nouns but didn't touch its verbs. It can probably happen. I just don't think it's likely.

Again, I'm not a linguist and I didn't drill too far into it. I just ran it twice and did a general spot-check for the errors I'd expect out of a program like that one. All in all, better than expected, but I wouldn't use it in lieu of developing a language yourself.