Blocked due to POV

I'll start with the obvious question. Is there a reason you don't want to do third person for both brothers?

James Patterson's Alex Cross series and Len Deighton's Harry Palmer series--main character is in 1st, the rest are in 3rd.

KZsnow said:

I currently am blocked on how to go about POV in this novel. it has to do with two brothers, one is a drug addict. the other is the main character and will be in the first person. but I feel like I should go third person at some points in order for the reader to really grasp the reality of the situations the addict is in due to his connection to the main story line.

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Then do it, and see how it works. No one will arrest you and throw you in jail.

KZsnow said:

I feel as if 2 first person views would confuse the reader.

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Not if the two voices are clearly distinguished. Everything Is Illuminated, by Jonathan Safran-Foer, is a really good example of this very thing done extremely well in a realistic literary novel.

KZsnow said:

I have also been warned in some of my workshops on not to have two different POVs.

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Whoever told you that hasn't read enough novels. The problem with multiple POV confusion tends to arise when there are many POVs, poorly controlled and poorly differentiated. But lots of writers have used dual POVs effectively, both in first person (Safran-Foer), both in third-limited, and one in first, another in third (I think John Irving has experimented with this form).

So, at this stage, trust your feelings, Luke. See where it goes.

caw

If you don't think you can handle dual first person POV, you could try deep third person POV. Here it is almost written in first person, except the change of pronouns, and it depends on the kind of book you want to write and its target audience.
Good luck in your writing.

Most books I read have two first person POVs. So long as the voices are distinct (and the chapters labelled appropriately), there's no reason not to do both brothers' POVs in first person.

Or both in third.

Or one in first and one in third.

Basically, anything can work if done well. Just pick one and write. Forget what "people have said' -- what POVs feel most "right" to you here? You can always change it later if it's not working. The important thing is to not let it stop you before you start.

Pick one option and write.

KZsnow said:

yes, I feel as if a third person view isn't personal enough to see the impact of what one brother does to the others life. its about his road to redemption but from the other brothers point of view so the reader can feel the impact the addict is having on those around him, I'm trying to relate the reader. as most readers wont be addicts themselves but those affected by some sort of addiction. most people I know have had some family member or close friend with a problem relating to this.

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Third-person can be quite personal if you let the omniscient voice be sympathetic — or even embodying— the character.

My books are all told, chapter by chapter, from the POV of the main character in that chapter.

Don't relate to the reader. Relate to your characters and make the reader feel compelled to invest in them based on that.

KZsnow said:

Hello All!

I am a new writer and have been working on my own book in my spare time. I currently am blocked on how to go about POV in this novel. it has to do with two brothers, one is a drug addict. the other is the main character and will be in the first person. but I feel like I should go third person at some points in order for the reader to really grasp the reality of the situations the addict is in due to his connection to the main story line. I feel as if 2 first person views would confuse the reader. but I have also been warned in some of my workshops on not to have two different POVs. any and all feedback is appreciated

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The Girl on the Train is an example of a book that handled 3 first person narrators extremely well. And I'm someone that's easily confused by multiple narrators (3rd person or 1st person). She gives the first POV character a lot of text before switching POV so that character was well established in my mind before I had to start relating to a second character. The 3rd POV doesn't come in until nearly the end. Changing too rapidly between 1st person characters is what's confusing.

Some writers feel they need to make the narration fit a pattern or characters should get equal amounts of text - while there's nothing wrong with this if the story naturally falls into this pattern, it's not necessary in the slightest and trying to force a story to fit a particular pattern risks coming across as contrived. Not to mention confusing if the POV changes happen too quickly as well.

The Martian combined first person (Watney's log on Mars) with 3rd person (NASA etc on Earth) effectively. The first time it jumped from 1st to 3rd was a bit of a jolt, but that doesn't stop it from being my favourite book ever. The 3rd person POV was necessary to tell the story and they came in when they needed.

So basically, there's nothing wrong with more than one POV in a book. If beginners are being warned off them, it's probably more to do with the fact it's harder to get right (therefore easier to mess up), but there is absolutely nothing wrong with it and there are loads of published books with multiple POVs. It's a good idea to read books that do multiple POVs well so you can see how it's done. The above two are my recommendations but there are plenty of others if these books aren't your cup of tea.

KZsnow said:

Hello All!
I feel as if 2 first person views would confuse the reader. but I have also been warned in some of my workshops on not to have two different POVs. any and all feedback is appreciated

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I'm totally bemused by this workshop advice. The majority of books I read have multiple PoVs, and some of those are in first person. Essentially, if it's clear enough writing so that it's not confusing to the reader then you are good to have whatever number of PoVs you like. As others have said, make sure the voices are distinct when you are inside their heads in first person.

KZsnow said:

yes, I feel as if a third person view isn't personal enough to see the impact of what one brother does to the others life. its about his road to redemption but from the other brothers point of view so the reader can feel the impact the addict is having on those around him, I'm trying to relate the reader. as most readers wont be addicts themselves but those affected by some sort of addiction. most people I know have had some family member or close friend with a problem relating to this.

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To a reader, Third person Limited (no matter how many POV characters there may be) can be just as personal and powerful as you think First Person would be in conveying feelings and emotions. The discipline of only revealing that which is experienced or known by the chosen POV character means it can be very focused and effective in conveying emotion and reaction to external events. Personally, I find I tend to relate more to a Third Person character in a story than I can to a First Person narrator but that may just be me..

It's all in the execution, and First Person POV is not any easier than Third person Limited. Indeed in some ways it is harder, especially for a beginner, because of the lack of discipline and the temptation to go overboard and tell the reader 'everything' simply because you can.

Good luck, whichever course you decide to follow..

Ooooops- and Welcome-

First person very easily descends into Tell.

Not necessarily a bad thing, but too much tell (or the wrong kind) can--speaking as a reader, not a writer--inhibit emotional connection and closeness.

Harlequin said:

First person very easily descends into Tell.

Not necessarily a bad thing, but too much tell (or the wrong kind) can--speaking as a reader, not a writer--inhibit emotional connection and closeness.

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I'm curious why you'd think first person falls into "tell" more easily than third?

KZsnow said:

I feel as if 2 first person views would confuse the reader.

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I've read a number of books with dual first person POVs. The chapters are labelled by character so you know whose POV you're in to minimize confusion. Also, as mentioned above, the characters' voices should be distinct.

but I have also been warned in some of my workshops on not to have two different POVs.

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????

This is rather strange advice. Most of the books I read have multiple POVs.

be frank said:

I'm curious why you'd think first person falls into "tell" more easily than third?

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Eh, I dunno. I'm not well experienced. I feel silly prefacing every post with a cautious "just one shakey opinion" though >.>

Anchor excerpt (mine) is direct tell. If it was changed to 3rd person but the writing otherwise kept the same, it'd be considered an info dump. It still is, really, but readers seem more inclined to let that slide in first person because it sort of falls into the same category of dialogue (with reader and not another char).

Ada Palmer's TLTL (mentioned because it's recent and well known) uses that aspect of first a lot. Mycroft dives into meandering explanations and character/info dumps, direct observations, and frank statements of his opinion. It's partly style, and partly (I assume) narrative dialogue.

Worldbuilding in first person SFF often seems done this way. I can't imagine how some of those books would convey the worldbuilding they need without doing so. If it goes on too much then it probably would start to exasperate the reader, but *I personally* find it harder to draw the line in first person between what's acceptable style/narrative dialogue, and what veers too heavily into shameless, relentless tell. It's easier to quantify in third, or seems to be.

I love first person which balances it well but I find it difficult to do myself, and it often feels off kilter the first person stuff I sometimes beta or read.

Donald Maass has some good stuff on what happens when voice over dominates first person narratives and replaces or diminishes emotional engagement. He says it far better than me of course.

I have certain issues similar to those of Harlequin, 1st person only pops up in my short fiction up to around novelette length, beyond that it's always third or omni.

And, truth be said, I can tolerate reading almost no 1st person from other writers too. So many writers seem to think 1st person is license to be all feisty and gossipy and wry and all that stuff I don't like as voice. The classic PI pulps from the Chandler/Ross Macdonald generation are fine, as is some Stephen King, although he does have the tendency to also degenerate into folksy talk which I assume he views as a continuation of the Mark Twain tradition.

Generally, with 1st, it usually takes about a page or less to make me realize life's too short.

But that's just me, I belong to this small sect of 1st person haters

JCornelius said:

So many writers seem to think 1st person is license to be all feisty and gossipy and wry and all that stuff I don't like as voice.

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YES. This is exactly how I feel. I don't dislike first-person, but I do feel sometimes that so many writers are too heavy-handed with the attitude. For me, it has to be a unique, yet tolerable voice.

KZsnow said:

Hello All!

I am a new writer and have been working on my own book in my spare time. I currently am blocked on how to go about POV in this novel. it has to do with two brothers, one is a drug addict. the other is the main character and will be in the first person. but I feel like I should go third person at some points in order for the reader to really grasp the reality of the situations the addict is in due to his connection to the main story line. I feel as if 2 first person views would confuse the reader. but I have also been warned in some of my workshops on not to have two different POVs. any and all feedback is appreciated

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Hi KZsnow and welcome!

Just FYI, 2 (or more) first person views is becoming much more popular, especially in some fiction (like YA). But it does require an ability to make the voices distinct for it to work well.

I'd say there are advantages and disadvantages to first and third person, single and multiple POV, and to the different combinations. Maybe try out different things and see what ends up working for you.

Whatever you go with, hope it works out!

CJ

Bufty said:

To a reader, Third person Limited (no matter how many POV characters there may be) can be just as personal and powerful as you think First Person would be in conveying feelings and emotions. The discipline of only revealing that which is experienced or known by the chosen POV character means it can be very focused and effective in conveying emotion and reaction to external events. Personally, I find I tend to relate more to a Third Person character in a story than I can to a First Person narrator but that may just be me..

It's all in the execution, and First Person POV is not any easier than Third person Limited. Indeed in some ways it is harder, especially for a beginner, because of the lack of discipline and the temptation to go overboard and tell the reader 'everything' simply because you can.

Good luck, whichever course you decide to follow..

Ooooops- and Welcome-

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I agree with Buffy about third person limited, but it comes down to how your story is playing out in your mind. Listen to that voice and write from that perspective.

As a reader I prefer third person limited, first person can feel more immediate if it's done right, but I usually find it shallow and distracting... and kinda twitchy.

KZsnow said:

I have also been warned in some of my workshops on not to have two different POVs.

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That's a mind-boggling bit of advice. The world is full of novels written in more than one POV.

If you think having some sections in the addict's POV would be helpful, by all means include them. You can do them in either first- or third-person POV. Published examples of both techniques abound.

indianroads said:

I agree with Buffy about third person limited, but it comes down to how your story is playing out in your mind. Listen to that voice and write from that perspective.

As a reader I prefer third person limited, first person can feel more immediate if it's done right, but I usually find it shallow and distracting... and kinda twitchy.

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Yeah, that . . . kinda twitchy.

I wouldn't do two 1st POVs; I think it's hard to give each character a distinct voice. Not impossible, but hard. So I would pick between two close 3rd POVs or sticking with one brother and all from his perspective, whether in 1st or 3rd.

Ancoelle said:

I wouldn't do two 1st POVs; I think it's hard to give each character a distinct voice. Not impossible, but hard. So I would pick between two close 3rd POVs or sticking with one brother and all from his perspective, whether in 1st or 3rd.

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It can definitely be hard to make the voices distinct. But really consider your genre and age category, KZsnow (I can't tell if yours is YA or adult). I went with three first person POVs for my YA contemp because these are almost always first person and that's preferring by readers of YA contemps. First-person dominates contemporaries in YA so much that multiple first POV is second only to single first POV in popularity.

It was easier than I expected to make the POV voices distinct (feedback from betas has been that the voices are distinct), BUT there are other challenges. A couple of my betas wanted to stay in my MC's POV because his voice outshines the other two POVs and they were very attached to him (My story may yet become single POV). My suggestion is to try things out, but be prepared for the challenges and possibly changing things according to feedback. Preferences on this vary so much (as you can see from the thread), that you'll probably want to have feedback on it from several readers.

Good luck!

KZsnow said:

but I have also been warned in some of my workshops on not to have two different POVs

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I've been in enough workshops over the years to know you'll get a lot of strange edicts like this one. You kind of have to filter out what works for you and what doesn't. Some teachers / writers will disparage plot. Genre. Whatever. Take the good stuff, mechanical or esoteric and do what you want with your stories. Anything that feels prescriptive coming from any forum, workshop, book on writing, message board post you should take with a grain of salt.

Alternating 1st person narratives have been done and well, as others have pointed out. Capturing a distinct voice is hard, let alone two, so it's definitely a challenge. Sounds like one worth taking on.

KZsnow said:

but I have also been warned in some of my workshops on not to have two different POVs.

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Utter hogwash. You certainly can do two different first person POVs, if you make the voices clearly distinct and show who's who. One technique I've seen is to name your chapters based on which voice it's in, eg.

Chapter One: Bob
Chapter Two: Jane

Joe Abercrombie does this I think, very well. If you start the chapter with text or dialogue that makes it very explicit whose head we're in, it should be fine. But again, make the characters' voices very distinct (God, we could make a deadly drinking game out of that phrase...) in order to sell it.