5k plus 5% of the book. . .
- Thread starter bubbletuna73
- Start date
Just a quick update. I heard back from my agent. She said she got the editor she wants me to use down to 'just' 5k, without the 5% of the book. I told her I'd done some research and found that was an exorbitant amount for editing, and that I'd been offered the names of other reputable agents who could do it for significantly less. I told her I would look at my other options for editing, and then get it back to her to "re-shop" it, as she'd told me she would do.
Here is her response:
"I cannot guarantee I will even re-shop it if you use someone we are not familiar with – but I will certainly look at the revised version – and revised proposal."
To which I replied,
"I don't understand, why wouldn't you reshop it?"
Her response:
"Unless it is dramatically improved and different than the original version, nobody would even agree to look at it again. I was hoping Dave's good name would bring an additional element since he is known widely and respected by publishers."
And I left the conversation by saying,
"I see. Well, that's my hope, one way or another, to make it dramatically improved and different from the original, regardless of who gets it to that point."
She didn't respond after that. Remember, the only thing she ever said about my book is, "It's excellent, and I think I can find a publisher for it." (at the beginning). And then, 8 months later, after I asked her if she'd actually read the manuscript, she said, "I love the idea, but the writing is only 'adequate.'"
Sigh.
Here is her response:
"I cannot guarantee I will even re-shop it if you use someone we are not familiar with – but I will certainly look at the revised version – and revised proposal."
To which I replied,
"I don't understand, why wouldn't you reshop it?"
Her response:
"Unless it is dramatically improved and different than the original version, nobody would even agree to look at it again. I was hoping Dave's good name would bring an additional element since he is known widely and respected by publishers."
And I left the conversation by saying,
"I see. Well, that's my hope, one way or another, to make it dramatically improved and different from the original, regardless of who gets it to that point."
She didn't respond after that. Remember, the only thing she ever said about my book is, "It's excellent, and I think I can find a publisher for it." (at the beginning). And then, 8 months later, after I asked her if she'd actually read the manuscript, she said, "I love the idea, but the writing is only 'adequate.'"
Sigh.
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2005
- Messages
- 2,995
- Reaction score
- 606
- Location
- Central Maryland
- Website
- www.richardcwhite.com
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2012
- Messages
- 16,171
- Reaction score
- 3,734
How was she going to use his name? 'Edited by Dave?' 'Ghosted by?' 'Cowritten by?' What agent pitches a book to editors as 'edited by Dave, because the last time I pitched it, you didn't want it?' I can see, 'with revisions that addressed the concerns you raised about X, that the author and I discussed and decided to approach with a total overhaul, which is why I thought you might be interested in looking again...' but 'edited by Dave?'
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2015
- Messages
- 10,310
- Reaction score
- 5,282
- Location
- Melbourne
- Website
- www.lanifrank.com
Without knowing who the agent is, all I can say is, "Run."
I just read through the thread. Egads. There are so many red flags here, you could open a golf course.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2013
- Messages
- 11,741
- Reaction score
- 10,570
- Location
- In my head
- Website
- thewanderingquille.blogspot.com
I'm with the zebra. None of these are good signs, and I'd actually wonder if she has any non-professional relationship with "Dave." Cases where we've heard this sort of thing before, the editor was actually the "agent's" husband or something like it.
If you're still uncertain about dropping her, consider emailing the situation to Janet Reid. She's an agent (and AWer) who answers questions and concerns daily on her blog. She can tell you directly what she thinks about this situation.
If you're still uncertain about dropping her, consider emailing the situation to Janet Reid. She's an agent (and AWer) who answers questions and concerns daily on her blog. She can tell you directly what she thinks about this situation.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2015
- Messages
- 10,310
- Reaction score
- 5,282
- Location
- Melbourne
- Website
- www.lanifrank.com
I'll also add that as much as you want to see your work out there, you're better off having no agent than a bad agent.
Oh dear. This smells unpleasantly like an under-the-table relationship. I'm with everyone else--this "agent" is doing you no favors. Cut and run.
I know I need to give her name. I hope you can understand why I'm hesitant to do that.
This morning she sent me another email. If I wasn't already convinced of things not being on the level, I probably am now:
"I have been thinking about your manuscript. Please ask your new editor what books they have worked on previously that have been successfully published. If they have none, I would not pay them - and it is a different skill set to "improve someone else's manuscript than writing one's own book (even if it is successfully published). Please let me know since there is an unwritten rule in the literary industry that says it is improper to resubmit a manuscript to a publisher (unless they have specifically requested a rewrite). My initial thought was to re-contact the publishers by explaining that Dave had worked on the revision, and because he has successfully worked on so many books, the publishers might agree to take another look. I'm sorry this rule exists, but I have to play by the rules."
I mean, it wasn't me who suggested she "re-shop" it! Like many of you, I assumed that once a publisher rejected something, that was it. She brought the notion up. But it only works if the editor whose name or contact info she refuses to divulge handles it?
This morning she sent me another email. If I wasn't already convinced of things not being on the level, I probably am now:
"I have been thinking about your manuscript. Please ask your new editor what books they have worked on previously that have been successfully published. If they have none, I would not pay them - and it is a different skill set to "improve someone else's manuscript than writing one's own book (even if it is successfully published). Please let me know since there is an unwritten rule in the literary industry that says it is improper to resubmit a manuscript to a publisher (unless they have specifically requested a rewrite). My initial thought was to re-contact the publishers by explaining that Dave had worked on the revision, and because he has successfully worked on so many books, the publishers might agree to take another look. I'm sorry this rule exists, but I have to play by the rules."
I mean, it wasn't me who suggested she "re-shop" it! Like many of you, I assumed that once a publisher rejected something, that was it. She brought the notion up. But it only works if the editor whose name or contact info she refuses to divulge handles it?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2012
- Messages
- 14,754
- Reaction score
- 24,805
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Website
- elizabethbonesteel.com
IMHO? I'd absolutely bail at this point. Get a list of the publishers she's subbed to (if you don't have it already), keep your emails and your notes, send her a cheerful "Thanks for all your help!" and terminate the contract. I wouldn't engage in any further Q&A with her at all.
I know it's awful to think of starting from Query Square One again, but there's an awful lot of questionable things here, and I don't think her responses to you have been particularly useful or reassuring. Frankly, I'd be inclined to ignore any opinions she has about your MS at all - it certainly reads as if this whole thing has been geared toward making you cough up $5K to Random Dave.
(I'm really trying to read her words with an eye toward "well, maybe her intentions really are pure, and she's just not aware of how she's coming across" - but not telling you who this person is? That's nuts. The number of people I've worked with in this business without having their full names and contact info is zero. This is a business, not a Twitter chat.)
I know it's awful to think of starting from Query Square One again, but there's an awful lot of questionable things here, and I don't think her responses to you have been particularly useful or reassuring. Frankly, I'd be inclined to ignore any opinions she has about your MS at all - it certainly reads as if this whole thing has been geared toward making you cough up $5K to Random Dave.
(I'm really trying to read her words with an eye toward "well, maybe her intentions really are pure, and she's just not aware of how she's coming across" - but not telling you who this person is? That's nuts. The number of people I've worked with in this business without having their full names and contact info is zero. This is a business, not a Twitter chat.)
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2013
- Messages
- 3,044
- Reaction score
- 1,500
So in one breath she's going to tell you that this is a rule, and in the next that she plans to act in a completely unprofessional manner and break this rule?
Even assuming the absolute best of intentions, rules are rules for a reason. If she were to pursue this course of action, she'd be making an ass of herself within her profesional circles and wasting publishers' time... not exactly desirable qualities in an agent.
Add to that the fact that she's doing her darndest to sell you on this amazing, wonderful, renowned-thoughout-the-publishing-world-but-she-won't-give-you-a-surname "Dave?" Run fast, run far, and don't look back.
(It sounds like you're already doing that, but I figured I'd add my two cents).
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2014
- Messages
- 2,449
- Reaction score
- 1,505
Among all the other red flags, it's the money that's the biggest, for me. $5,000, for what an agent should be doing anyway.
Take away all the permutations and weasel-wording, and you're still left with an agent charging a fee. Hard to know if she does this sort of thing to all her authors, but she's done it to you and that's really all the info you need.
Money flows towards the author.
Think of it like a very roundabout rejection. Rejections are never easy and they come in all shapes and sizes, including the $5,000 variety. They're all hard to hear, but in the same vein, no different than sending a query to the best of the best agents and getting a "sorry, list is full" or a "maybe next time". Aim high and be persistent. Keep writing.
Every so often even the savviest author's research will fail him or her and he or she will get an offer from a vanity press or fee-charging agent. Part of learning the business is learning that these are worse deals to take than not take. Being published badly is worse than not being published at all.
Take away all the permutations and weasel-wording, and you're still left with an agent charging a fee. Hard to know if she does this sort of thing to all her authors, but she's done it to you and that's really all the info you need.
Money flows towards the author.
Think of it like a very roundabout rejection. Rejections are never easy and they come in all shapes and sizes, including the $5,000 variety. They're all hard to hear, but in the same vein, no different than sending a query to the best of the best agents and getting a "sorry, list is full" or a "maybe next time". Aim high and be persistent. Keep writing.
Every so often even the savviest author's research will fail him or her and he or she will get an offer from a vanity press or fee-charging agent. Part of learning the business is learning that these are worse deals to take than not take. Being published badly is worse than not being published at all.
bubbletuna, I just wanted to touch on your earlier point about whether or not this manuscript is dead in the water. Others have already said that it's going to be a tough sell to new agents because it's already been rejected by a number of publishers, and that's unfortunately true. But I'd still think you have a better shot of a publisher picking it up with a highly reputable agent. So you're still better off trying to find a new one.
You said writing a new manuscript wouldn't be easy, and you believe in this one. That's awesome. I'd encourage you to think about starting the next manuscript anyway. If you end up with interest from other agents, they'll likely ask what else you have or are working on. If your answer is that this is it, that's not going to be very appealing. It's hard, I know, but if you did it once, you really can do it again.
As far as naming the agent goes, I hope you'll consider posting something about your experience in whatever thread exists for them. It could be very helpful for other writers.
You said writing a new manuscript wouldn't be easy, and you believe in this one. That's awesome. I'd encourage you to think about starting the next manuscript anyway. If you end up with interest from other agents, they'll likely ask what else you have or are working on. If your answer is that this is it, that's not going to be very appealing. It's hard, I know, but if you did it once, you really can do it again.
As far as naming the agent goes, I hope you'll consider posting something about your experience in whatever thread exists for them. It could be very helpful for other writers.
The more I hear about this agent, the faster I think you should run.
Get as much information from her as you can regarding the places she's sent it out to. And then sack her.
Get as much information from her as you can regarding the places she's sent it out to. And then sack her.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2014
- Messages
- 2,449
- Reaction score
- 1,505
+1 to what JJ said.
It often seems like you could never manage a better story than the one you have. Natural enough, because you believe in your story. That's good.
But it often turns out that, if you set to work on the second book, that it comes out just as good or even better because you've now got all that experience and learning from doing the first book. Which is not to say it's easy--any book requires perseverance--but you may find, if you write it, that it starts to feel better and better. You're a writer, after all.
Also, what JJ said about having multiple books available is very true. Good agents are, in part, looking for someone they can rep for a career.
It often seems like you could never manage a better story than the one you have. Natural enough, because you believe in your story. That's good.
But it often turns out that, if you set to work on the second book, that it comes out just as good or even better because you've now got all that experience and learning from doing the first book. Which is not to say it's easy--any book requires perseverance--but you may find, if you write it, that it starts to feel better and better. You're a writer, after all.
Also, what JJ said about having multiple books available is very true. Good agents are, in part, looking for someone they can rep for a career.
You guys are all right, of course, about writing another book. And I need to start it, I know.
Meanwhile, this is her last response, after I asked again, kindly but insistently, for the editor's vita. . .
Dave Smitherman.
She goes on to give a detailed and impressive list of the books he's either edited or ghostwritten for her agency alone. If I printed it here it would give away her name, which I'm not ready to do, stubbornly clinging to the idea that perhaps all is not lost with her or my current manuscript. And again, I don't think I'm "outing" him or anything, because I haven't used him, and for all know, he could be the second coming of editors, capable of turning my apparent toad of a ms into Cinderella.
Meanwhile, this is her last response, after I asked again, kindly but insistently, for the editor's vita. . .
Dave Smitherman.
She goes on to give a detailed and impressive list of the books he's either edited or ghostwritten for her agency alone. If I printed it here it would give away her name, which I'm not ready to do, stubbornly clinging to the idea that perhaps all is not lost with her or my current manuscript. And again, I don't think I'm "outing" him or anything, because I haven't used him, and for all know, he could be the second coming of editors, capable of turning my apparent toad of a ms into Cinderella.
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2012
- Messages
- 14,754
- Reaction score
- 24,805
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Website
- elizabethbonesteel.com
I really don't think there's a chance of this current agent doing anything good for you, but I'd rather focus on a more positive point.
NaNoWriMo is coming up in a couple of months. That's a good time frame to start thinking out a new story, plot/outline/whatever your method is, then knock out a draft (or most of one) in November. The cool thing about NaNoWriMo is you can get a lot of support and encouragement, and you have a set period of time to work in without letting it drag out too long.
Of course that's not the system that works for everyone. If it's not for you, you can still think about a plan for what does work. If you're going to be an author, it's worth thinking in terms of how you're going manage this career.
NaNoWriMo is coming up in a couple of months. That's a good time frame to start thinking out a new story, plot/outline/whatever your method is, then knock out a draft (or most of one) in November. The cool thing about NaNoWriMo is you can get a lot of support and encouragement, and you have a set period of time to work in without letting it drag out too long.
Of course that's not the system that works for everyone. If it's not for you, you can still think about a plan for what does work. If you're going to be an author, it's worth thinking in terms of how you're going manage this career.
After reading this thread, Bubbletuna, I'd have to say 'run'. Get that submission list. If she balks, obfuscates again, or tries to threaten you...you are already going to leave her, so out her to Writer Beware (and maybe here on AW).
I know of (and in two cases know) major editors who have worked for years in the US and UK Big Five SFF imprints (with award winning books). Their fees for doing structural and copyediting on my 102K fantasy would not top $2K.
The fashion now, if you can get one, is for an editorial agent who can help whip your book into shape before submitting.
Take a breather. Start something new, even if it's just farting around for enjoyment. Get some emotional distance from your beloved current mms. You may surprise yourself by the changes you can see, once you get that distance.
Here's the big danger about paid editing on a novel that hasn't found an agent or publisher: it means the author may not be doing the work. They might not have learned how to apply the lessons of editing to future manuscripts. Learning to self-edit as much as possible is one of the necessary skills of writing. It's what agents and editors are looking for in an author. Authors who pay for edits on every single mms, may be dooming themselves to always needing paid editors.
I'm not saying *you* don't have the self-editing skills. It sounds like this agent is pushing you toward an expensive editor when she already had doubts about your work. That's on her, not you.
I know of (and in two cases know) major editors who have worked for years in the US and UK Big Five SFF imprints (with award winning books). Their fees for doing structural and copyediting on my 102K fantasy would not top $2K.
The fashion now, if you can get one, is for an editorial agent who can help whip your book into shape before submitting.
Take a breather. Start something new, even if it's just farting around for enjoyment. Get some emotional distance from your beloved current mms. You may surprise yourself by the changes you can see, once you get that distance.
Here's the big danger about paid editing on a novel that hasn't found an agent or publisher: it means the author may not be doing the work. They might not have learned how to apply the lessons of editing to future manuscripts. Learning to self-edit as much as possible is one of the necessary skills of writing. It's what agents and editors are looking for in an author. Authors who pay for edits on every single mms, may be dooming themselves to always needing paid editors.
I'm not saying *you* don't have the self-editing skills. It sounds like this agent is pushing you toward an expensive editor when she already had doubts about your work. That's on her, not you.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2014
- Messages
- 2,449
- Reaction score
- 1,505
Indeed, one of the signals in your first post was that you had already done extensive self-editing. That's good. A book on submission needs to be polished and professional--it does not need to be absolutely perfect. It struck me as very, very odd that an author who had already put extensive time into the book would need $5k worth of editing before submission.
Either the book is good enough or it's not. No agent should be stringing an author along, extracting cash, if the book's not good enough. A "revise & resubmit" or an agent making specific editorial suggestions herself would be more common.
Either the book is good enough or it's not. No agent should be stringing an author along, extracting cash, if the book's not good enough. A "revise & resubmit" or an agent making specific editorial suggestions herself would be more common.