Ellipses inside of em-dashes

NealM · Aug 22, 2017

I just wrote this sentence:

If I’d been in a different kind of mood--like, say, the way I felt when I woke up yesterday, or the day before that, or the day before that…--I might have relished the fact that I’d made Connor feel bad, serves him right for abandoning me.

Personally, I have no problem with the em dash after the ellipses. It makes clear sense to me and isn't hard on the eye. However, I'm not sure an editor would agree, so I changed it to parentheses instead:

If I’d been in a different kind of mood (like, say, the way I felt when I woke up yesterday, or the day before that, or the day before that…) I might have relished ... etc.

Does anybody know what the actual rule is on this or is it a style choice?

Thanks all.

Twick · Aug 22, 2017

It seems unnecessary. The ellipsis indicates something that's trailing off, except you continue the sentence.

What do you see as the difference between:

If I’d been in a different kind of mood– like, say, the way I felt when I woke up yesterday, or the day before that, or the day before that…– I might have relished the fact that I’d made Connor feel bad, serves him right for abandoning me.

and

If I’d been in a different kind of mood – like, say, the way I felt when I woke up yesterday, or the day before that, or the day before that – I might have relished the fact that I’d made Connor feel bad, serves him right for abandoning me.

?

Also, you seem to change tense and there's a comma splice lurking at the tail end of the sentence.

Bufty · Aug 22, 2017

Agree with Twick.

There is no obvious reason to justify using an ellipsis- indeed it could be confusing to any reader who knows the purpose of an ellipsis, wonders why it is there and finds no reason.

cornflake · Aug 22, 2017

NealM said:
I just wrote this sentence:

If I’d been in a different kind of mood--like, say, the way I felt when I woke up yesterday, or the day before that, or the day before that…--I might have relished the fact that I’d made Connor feel bad, serves him right for abandoning me.

Personally, I have no problem with the em dash after the ellipses. It makes clear sense to me and isn't hard on the eye. However, I'm not sure an editor would agree, so I changed it to parentheses instead:

If I’d been in a different kind of mood (like, say, the way I felt when I woke up yesterday, or the day before that, or the day before that…) I might have relished ... etc.

Does anybody know what the actual rule is on this or is it a style choice?

Thanks all.

The problem is the misused ellipsis, not the dashes.

BethS · Aug 22, 2017

I don't think the ellipsis adds anything, and it's distracting.

NealM · Aug 22, 2017

Hmm. I guess I wanted the ellipses to indicate "and so on and so on and so on." This is a character who's been kinda depressed for the past year and could have continued saying "and the day before that" in perpetuity. I thought an ellipses would convey that but you all seem to disagree so it looks like I was mistaken. Although, would you all still feel the ellipses was misused if the "and the day after that, and the day after that..." came at the end of a paragraph rather than in the middle of em dashes?

Also, is it still unnecessary and distracting when used inside the parentheses instead? Would an "etc" be better? Or an "and so on"? Maybe Twick is right that I should just say it twice then move on, but that sounds to me like she's only been depressed for specifically the last two days and not the past year or more. But maybe I'm thinking too literally there.

I assure you I don't spend this much energy thinking about every sentence I write.

NealM · Aug 22, 2017

Twick said:
and there's a comma splice lurking at the tail end of the sentence.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. Any chance you could elaborate? Thanks.

Bufty · Aug 22, 2017

NealM said:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. Any chance you could elaborate? Thanks.

If I’d been in a different kind of mood--like, say, the way I felt when I woke up yesterday, or the day before that, or the day before that…--I might have relished the fact that I’d made Connor feel bad, serves him right for abandoning me.

That highlighted sentence should be a sentence on its own, and not attached (spliced) to the previous one by a comma.

cornflake · Aug 22, 2017

NealM said:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. Any chance you could elaborate? Thanks.

Twick is indicating this is a splice:

I might have relished the fact that I’d made Connor feel bad, serves him right for abandoning me.

NealM · Aug 22, 2017

Bufty said:
If I’d been in a different kind of mood--like, say, the way I felt when I woke up yesterday, or the day before that, or the day before that…--I might have relished the fact that I’d made Connor feel bad, serves him right for abandoning me.

That highlighted sentence should be a sentence on its own, and not attached (spliced) to the previous one by a comma.

Gotcha. Thank you. That's the kind of thing I probably would have come to over the course of rewrites. My first drafts tend to be loaded with commas that should be periods and periods that should be commas and ellipses that shouldn't be there at all...

Twick · Aug 22, 2017

I don't think you need the ellipsis. The repetition of "day before that" indicates that this is a long-standing pattern. I can't say that the ellipsis followed by the dash is wrong, but I agree that it looks off, and somewhat distracting. Your sentence is stronger without it.

BethS · Aug 22, 2017

NealM said:
Hmm. I guess I wanted the ellipses to indicate "and so on and so on and so on." This is a character who's been kinda depressed for the past year and could have continued saying "and the day before that" in perpetuity. I thought an ellipses would convey that but you all seem to disagree so it looks like I was mistaken.

No, that's clear enough from the context, which is why everyone is saying you don't really need them there.

Although, would you all still feel the ellipses was misused if the "and the day after that, and the day after that..." came at the end of a paragraph rather than in the middle of em dashes?

It would probably work better in a situation like that, yes.

Also, is it still unnecessary and distracting when used inside the parentheses instead? Would an "etc" be better? Or an "and so on"?

Parentheses might work better (I think it's the juxtaposition of ... with -- that is so distracting), but only if it's part of the narrative style to use parentheses, which aren't often employed in fiction, though they're not unheard of, either.

And Twick is right; there's a comma splice after "bad." Needs to be a period there, since "Serves him right..." etc., is a complete sentence on its own.

NealM · Aug 22, 2017

BethS said:
No, that's clear enough from the context, which is why everyone is saying you don't really need them there.

It would probably work better in a situation like that, yes.

Parentheses might work better (I think it's the juxtaposition of ... with -- that is so distracting), but only if it's part of the narrative style to use parentheses, which aren't often employed in fiction, though they're not unheard of, either.

And Twick is right; there's a comma splice after "bad." Needs to be a period there, since "Serves him right..." etc., is a complete sentence on its own.

Thank you for this, Beth.

Clearly my usage was wrong, but I still wonder - simply out of curiosity - if there's any situation in which an ellipses/em dash situation is okay.

Jeff Bond · Aug 22, 2017

It's a style choice. So long as you understand that it's going to look weird on the page, and pull your reader out of the story for a moment, then--if you're cool with that--it's your prerogative to go for it. There's probably some POV character you could dream up (anachronistic, obsessed with syntax?) for whom this would be an appropriate choice.

But as everyone else has said, you don't want it there.

Old Hack · Aug 23, 2017

An em-dash suggests a hard interruption.

An ellipsis suggests a trailing-off.

What are you trying to suggest by using them both together? It doesn't make sense.

I'd edit to something like this (and I'm only addressing the ellipsis/em-dash and comma splice issues here).

If I’d been in a different kind of mood--like, say, the way I felt when I woke up yesterday, or the day before that, or the day before that--I might have relished the fact that I’d made Connor feel bad. Serves him right for abandoning me.

If I’d been in a different kind of mood, like, say, the way I felt when I woke up yesterday, or the day before that, or the day before that, I might have relished the fact that I’d made Connor feel bad. Serves him right for abandoning me.

I don't think it works with the ellipsis no matter how you do it.

mongo · Sep 3, 2017

And Twick is right; there's a comma splice after "bad." Needs to be a period there, since "Serves him right..." etc., is a complete sentence on its own.

Just a question here.
Could a semi-colon be used effectively instead of a period and beginning a new sentence?

" . . . I’d made Connor feel bad; serves him right for abandoning me."

Thanks, mongo

BethS · Sep 3, 2017

mongo said:
And Twick is right; there's a comma splice after "bad." Needs to be a period there, since "Serves him right..." etc., is a complete sentence on its own.

Just a question here.
Could a semi-colon be used effectively instead of a period and beginning a new sentence?

" . . . I’d made Connor feel bad; serves him right for abandoning me."

It could go either way, so you can suit yourself on this one.

Ellipses inside of em-dashes

NealM

Twick

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

BethS

NealM

NealM

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

NealM

Twick

BethS

NealM

Jeff Bond

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

mongo

BethS