Is my book too much for YA

emstar94 · Aug 21, 2017

So, I've read different threads on this, and I guess I just wanted to ask personally your opinions...

My YA novel, is about two 15 year old best friends. They run away to a town hours away, and one of the girls - Lily, falls very lust-at-first-sight with a boy she meets - said boy is part of a group of stoner squatters.
The best friends go to live with the boys, smoking weed, shoplifting, and drinking.
There is physical violence and fighting, there is an attempted sexual assault, there is swearing, and there is reference to sex...

Lily ultimately does not have a happy ending. She doesn't die but she does become a heroin addict - she gets involved in the kind of world she always felt she belonged in, and even though she's miserable - she won't ever go home. She wants to be lost.

I am not the kind of person who will ever write a book with a sort of condemning moral story, but I have written honestly, and from my characters points of view...

I guess my question is,

Is it too much for YA? Could it encounter a bad reception if it were traditionally published because of all the ugly, darker stuff?

Edit; just to clarify...

I know that there is a thread pretty much covering all of this, I've just been getting worried lately because I've read blogs from authors who won't even have a character who smokes (???) in their books... and as my book doesn't outright condemn a certain kind of lifestyle - it just kindof observes it - plays it out... I worry it needs to be more... I'm not sure.

2nd edit;

The story itself revolves around friendship - and the loss of it. It has two POV's, and while one character tells her side her best friend tells the other - there is a clash of personality and dreams, Lily is manipulative and selfish - her best friend could not be further from that. Other things dominate the story such as more adult themes too.

I guess, most importantly, for me... my story goes in reverse. The dream to the hell. The hope to the conflict. Fixed to broken. Maybe that's where my book differs, it goes in reverse.

gmwhitley · Aug 21, 2017

I don't think it's too much. I think as long as its main characters are young adults the book can be considered YA. I'm a fan of a writer of beautiful YA fiction that is raw and real (https://us.macmillan.com/author/sarahmccarry/) - would I ever let her books be read by my kids? Not until they are 18. But her teen characters have sex, do drugs, experiment - it is not sanitized at all. She is critically acclaimed - but not mainstream. So a "hard" YA book probably wouldn't be a bestseller but if it is literary enough I think it could do well.

Splendor · Aug 21, 2017

As a writer, I am responsible for the content I create especially that directed at young audiences. As a parent and writer, I wouldn't buy or recommend such a book.

emstar94 · Aug 21, 2017

Splendor said:
As a writer, I am responsible for the content I create especially that directed at young audiences. As a parent and writer, I wouldn't buy or recommend such a book.

I appreciate your opinion.

I very much view myself as responsible for the content I create, and honestly - I'm proud of it. But I also don't believe in fluffy reflections of the world we live in. It isn't all beauty, or kindness, or happy endings, and I didn't want to write those characters, or their endings.

Out of interest, what would be your limit in YA fiction? What would you say is the furthest boundary you would go to?

Hbooks · Aug 21, 2017

I read all sorts of stuff in YA, and have read books with sex, with drug use, with runaways, with violence, all of which have been written well. I guess what seems to set what you're describing apart for me is that all the sex-drug use-running away-heroin addiction doesn't seem to serve a larger purpose in terms of a story I would want to read, at least in the way I'm imagining it.

From the way you spelled it out, I don't envision a character arc where I see a teen make certain choices, experience growth through risky decisions and come out different on the other side. I just imagine shocking behavior and no character growth in the end. And that's not really something I'd be interested in reading. Apologies if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

emstar94 · Aug 21, 2017

Hbooks said:
I read all sorts of stuff in YA, and have read books with sex, with drug use, with runaways, with violence, all of which have been written well. I guess what seems to set what you're describing apart for me is that all the sex-drug use-running away-heroin addiction doesn't seem to serve a larger purpose in terms of a story I would want to read, at least in the way I'm imagining it.

From the way you spelled it out, I don't envision a character arc where I see a teen make certain choices, experience growth through risky decisions and come out different on the other side. I just imagine shocking behavior and no character growth in the end. And that's not really something I'd be interested in reading. Apologies if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

I appreciate your opinion - basically, I didn't outline the story fully in this thread because I was focusing more on what it means to have these more shadowy factors at play. Where the story is concerned, no Lily never changes or realises her behaviours are wrong.. but her best friend Katie (who is completely opposite in every way) loses her best friend to a whole other life, and Lily's choices affect many, many people... I guess that's the point for me - Lily is worse in the end and far more broken than she ever was in the beginning - the dream is not the reality - but she'll never leave.

Marissa D · Aug 21, 2017

Hbooks said:
I read all sorts of stuff in YA, and have read books with sex, with drug use, with runaways, with violence, all of which have been written well. I guess what seems to set what you're describing apart for me is that all the sex-drug use-running away-heroin addiction doesn't seem to serve a larger purpose in terms of a story I would want to read, at least in the way I'm imagining it.

From the way you spelled it out, I don't envision a character arc where I see a teen make certain choices, experience growth through risky decisions and come out different on the other side. I just imagine shocking behavior and no character growth in the end. And that's not really something I'd be interested in reading. Apologies if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

This. Several authors have dealt with heavy-duty subjects like drug use and mental illness, but there's growth and change for the POV character, and, dare I say it, hope. A lot of teen YA readers (to differentiate from the huge number of adult YA readers) use fiction as a way to try on lives, so to speak--a way to investigate Real Life from a distance. I'm not sure a YA book that doesn't offer any hope or character growth is anything I'd offer teen readers, especially if they're in a dark place already.

Cyia · Aug 21, 2017

99.99999% of the time this question is posed, the answer is: No - have you read a YA novel???

Unless your sex scenes are full-view erotica-level stuff, you're not going to knock yourself out of the YA category with anything you've mentioned.

emstar94 said:
My YA novel, is about two 15 year old best friends. They run away to a town hours away, and one of the girls - Lily, falls very lust-at-first-sight with a boy she meets - said boy is part of a group of stoner squatters.
The best friends go to live with the boys, smoking weed, shoplifting, and drinking.
There is physical violence and fighting, there is an attempted sexual assault, there is swearing, and there is reference to sex...

Lily ultimately does not have a happy ending. She doesn't die but she does become a heroin addict - she gets involved in the kind of world she always felt she belonged in, and even though she's miserable - she won't ever go home. She wants to be lost.

You show me this plot, I raise you Go Ask Alice. (Published 1971)

emstar94 · Aug 21, 2017

Cyia said:
99.99999% of the time this question is posed, the answer is: No - have you read a YA novel???

Unless your sex scenes are full-view erotica-level stuff, you're not going to knock yourself out of the YA category with anything you've mentioned.

You show me this plot, I raise you Go Ask Alice. (Published 1971)

Phew thankyou!! :flag:

lizmonster · Aug 21, 2017

Cyia said:
You show me this plot, I raise you Go Ask Alice. (Published 1971)

There was at least one other, written in the late 70s/early 80s, whose title I can't remember, where the narrator's sister died of (IIRC) a drug overdose. (I feel like there was a lot more YA that covered drug addiction in the 70s.)

Fruitbat · Aug 21, 2017

Just a thought here, it might work better to make the character who never changes and never learns be a secondary character. Then it ends with a more uplifting message about the main character, while the secondary character serves as a contrast, subtly illustrating what happens when the higher road is not taken or something like that.

Also, YA runs the gamut just like adult fiction does in how clean or gritty it gets. However, there's usually a difference in how the grit is handled between YA and adult fiction. For example, sex can be included in YA but is likely to not be graphic or titillating as it might be in adult fiction and you might want to be careful of character age limits too, because a minor with a legal adult could be problematic for publication. And then there's also fiction with YA aged characters that is not YA but intended for an adult audience. The best way to get a feel for the range and handling of YA topics is just to get a pile of YA novels and read them imo.

emstar94 · Aug 21, 2017

Fruitbat said:
Just a thought here, it might work better to make the character who never changes and never learns be a secondary character. Then it ends with a more uplifting message about the main character, while the secondary character serves as a contrast, subtly illustrating what happens when the higher road is not taken or something like that.

Also, YA runs the gamut just like adult fiction does in how clean or gritty it gets. However, there's usually a difference in how the grit is handled between YA and adult fiction. For example, sex can be included in YA but is likely to not be graphic or titillating as it might be in adult fiction and you might want to be careful of character age limits too, because a minor with a legal adult could be problematic for publication. And then there's also fiction with YA aged characters that is not YA but intended for an adult audience. The best way to get a feel for the range and handling of YA topics is just to get a pile of YA novels and read them imo.

Love the idea of this, however Lily is such a dominating force of nature that she really does just overpower the whole book naturally, and while Katie gets her say - Lily's voice always shouts louder. In the end, it's clear both girls miss each-other. There's just the question of whether they'll ever make it back to one another.

Splendor · Aug 22, 2017

Hbooks said:
I read all sorts of stuff in YA, and have read books with sex, with drug use, with runaways, with violence, all of which have been written well. I guess what seems to set what you're describing apart for me is that all the sex-drug use-running away-heroin addiction doesn't seem to serve a larger purpose in terms of a story I would want to read, at least in the way I'm imagining it.

From the way you spelled it out, I don't envision a character arc where I see a teen make certain choices, experience growth through risky decisions and come out different on the other side. I just imagine shocking behavior and no character growth in the end. And that's not really something I'd be interested in reading. Apologies if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

This is my sentiment as well.

Fruitbat · Aug 22, 2017

emstar94 said:
Love the idea of this, however Lily is such a dominating force of nature that she really does just overpower the whole book naturally, and while Katie gets her say - Lily's voice always shouts louder. In the end, it's clear both girls miss each-other. There's just the question of whether they'll ever make it back to one another.

My feeling then is if it works, it works. It's hard to say anything definite without actually reading it. Good luck.

emstar94 · Aug 22, 2017

From the responses on this thread alone - there's a huge range of opinion, and certainly no "one size fits all" approach... while there are people who seem offended by the idea of having stories that contain the kind of stuff mine does, there are also those who take a more balanced approach, or even enjoy this kind of YA.

To clarify, in this thread - I didn't go too much into the plot/life lessons/endings, because I wanted to focus on how people feel in particular by all the things involved in my book, there is ultimately a big plot-line/story going on all the time, it's just that I didn't go on about that in the thread.

This book is dark. But it was written with so much passion - heart - and yes, suffering in mind. I'm 23, and I remember what it was being 15, and 16... and I wanted to read a book like this one. I wanted to feel *everything*. It definitely isn't John Green, but it isn't a grisly graphic awful mess either. P.S, I love John Green.

I will write what is truthful - nothing more, nothing less. And if it is well received - brilliant. If not, that's OK, too. I think I've got to learn to be OK with that.

Cyia · Aug 22, 2017

YA covers everything from 13-18. You're going to get answers from readers, writers, and parents of kids in that age range. The mom of a shy, awkward 13 year-old is going to have a wildly different viewpoint from a 17 who wants a story that reflects the conflicts and grey areas of modern life.

emstar94 · Aug 22, 2017

Cyia said:
YA covers everything from 13-18. You're going to get answers from readers, writers, and parents of kids in that age range. The mom of a shy, awkward 13 year-old is going to have a wildly different viewpoint from a 17 who wants a story that reflects the conflicts and grey areas of modern life.

Very, very true, and useful to remember.

SpinningWheel · Aug 23, 2017

You've read Junk by Melvin Burgess (published as Smack in the US)? That was a book with a similar subject matter that got a 'this is too much' reaction when it came out in the late 90s, with newspapers lamenting the moral decline of our youth, etc, but it won the Carnegie Medal. It was accused of glamourising heroin addiction (which it really didn't) because it contained very vivid first person descriptions of what it feels like to take heroin. So it's not entirely untrodden ground.
However, it is worth remembering that Burgess was already an established writer by then. If you're a new writer trying to get a publisher to take a chance on you, this might be something that would count against you, while someone with more of a track record is freer to try riskier themes. But arguably you shouldn't be trying too hard to second guess publishers anyway and should just write the book that you feel you need to write.

M Louise · Aug 23, 2017

It sounds like the kind of gritty book I would love to have read when I was 16 and had a classmate die of an overdose. In the current opioid crisis, young people may be looking for something that simply shows them the reality around them, no happy endings, no moral lessons.

randi.lee · Aug 23, 2017

M Louise said:
It sounds like the kind of gritty book I would love to have read when I was 16 and had a classmate die of an overdose. In the current opioid crisis, young people may be looking for something that simply shows them the reality around them, no happy endings, no moral lessons.

This. I grew up in a drug-heavy area. A lot of my friends succumbed to situations similar to what you are describing. Being able to relate to a novel during those years, instead of all of the Nancy Drew fluffy stuff that was being published at the time, would have been refreshing.

Not to say Nancy Drew or anything Nancy Drew-ish is bad, at all. I love Nancy Drew and I love fun stories. It just would have been nice to be able to read a book I actually could have related to.

DarienW · Aug 23, 2017

I wish YA could come with an age recommendation. I think there's a lot of important, gritty stories out there that may benefit some readers who can relate, and for others, possibly create empathy, but by forcing the stories to appeal to a 13 year old, even when the MC is 17, I feel like it cuts the possibilities down.

I only say this in the interest of readers who are living lives that aren't a cakewalk. Giving them stories to help them feel less alone is a good thing IMHO. Since I was one of those kids, I found it hard to relate to people who were popular or had loving parents, and we all know, I wasn't alone in that.

I do understand there are lots of stories to take people out of their reality, but as an adult, I have yet to read a YA that related to what I went through in any way--and I'm looking!

"Perks of Being A Wallflower" came closest so far. That said--any rec's for me?

MaeZe · Aug 23, 2017

randi.lee said:
This. I grew up in a drug-heavy area. A lot of my friends succumbed to situations similar to what you are describing. Being able to relate to a novel during those years, instead of all of the Nancy Drew fluffy stuff that was being published at the time, would have been refreshing.

Not to say Nancy Drew or anything Nancy Drew-ish is bad, at all. I love Nancy Drew and I love fun stories. It just would have been nice to be able to read a book I actually could have related to.

I'm going to second this. Not because I needed a book to tell me what my teen years were like, I didn't do much reading then. Rather because there are many sides to YA, one of which is tragic realism. Every YA story is not about magic, fantasy and instant true love. There's a whole other side to teen life that is sometimes very dark. But those stories, if told right (because we all need to be good writers regardless of what we are writing), can be very memorable.

Just as teens dying of cancer can be an important story, so can one of survival or not from drugs and the tragedies that are some teens lives.

neandermagnon · Aug 23, 2017

speaking as a mother: as long as it's portrayed realistically and doesn't glamorise these things (i.e making them seem cool and rebellious) and shows the real consequences of it, I'll let my daughters read it when they're about 15 or so (if they want to).

The issue with it - and the smoking example comes into this - is that teenagers are a lot more impressionable than adults and they go through a phase in adolescence (which may last several years) where due to how their neural connections are maturing, they are really bad at making wise decisions. The whole teenage, moody, disagreeable phase comes from this. The thing about smoking is that it's very hard to stop once you start, and some people who start smoking as teenagers will be unable to quit in the long term and will end up dying of a smoking related illness (and having seen a family member suffer for years with emphysema before finally dying of it, it's a long, slow, painful death). Parents will do whatever they can to avoid their darling babies dying a long, slow, painful death, even when said darling baby is now an obnoxious stroppy teen. While adults can easily rationalise, e.g. "yeah that character may look cool with a cigarette in his mouth, but I don't want to get lung cancer and I'm not stupid enough to start smoking just because some antihero character in a book does" - many teenagers don't think like that... could be more like "all the cool kids at school smoke, this character's cool and he smokes, mum keeps saying not to smoke but she never lets me do anything fun"... etc. They can't even imagine being 30, never mind being 60 and dying from smoking related illness. I'm not remotely saying that ALL teenagers think like this. But some do and the decision to start smoking is one that potentially has decades of consequences.

Repeat the above for all risky behavours - unprotected sex, playing "chicken" in the traffic, joyriding, knife crime, gun crime, drugs, etc, etc, etc.

I'm not going to ban my kids from reading books that contain these things. If it's done in a realistic way that shows realistic consequences (nauseating moralistic tales with unrealistic bad consequences are probably worse than glamorising those things) then I'm fine with them reading it when they're about 14-15. The one thing I read as a young adult that I found portrayed drugs in the most off-putting way was a biography of Keith Richards. This is after reading and seeing so much from the rock music scene that glamorised drugs. Keith Richards is often portrayed as an antihero and the amount of heroin he used to take as some kind of macho feat. Reading about the reality of what drugs did to him and his family and friends was a shock. There was nothing remotely glamorous about it. It wasn't written with the intention of shocking young wannabe-rock-stars out of taking drugs. It was just written to portray the truth.

Therein lies the difference between what kind of thing I'll let my daughters read and what will have to wait until they're fully grown.

Bear in mind that there are massive differences between parents and what they will and won't let their kids read. I'm on the lenient end of the spectrum, though I do impose some restrictions (more a "wait until you're older" thing than "never"). Some parents tried to get Harry Potter banned from school libraries because it contains magic.

Answering this question as a writer: I wrote a novel when I was 13 where the MC's older brother was a sort of Godfather of the local illegal drug trade and it was extremely violent with loads of drug taking and also smuggling, dealing, firearms, prostitution, suicide and all sorts. I'm not sure I'd allow my kids to read it when they're 13. (Or possibly at all because while the story's quite gripping the quality of writing is ........ agggh!) It would probably get an 18 certificate if made into a film, but I was only 13 when I wrote it. Lol.

MaeZe · Aug 24, 2017

neandermagnon said:
speaking as a mother: as long as it's portrayed realistically and doesn't glamorise these things (i.e making them seem cool and rebellious) and shows the real consequences of it, I'll let my daughters read it when they're about 15 or so (if they want to).

The issue with it - and the smoking example comes into this - is that teenagers are a lot more impressionable than adults and they go through a phase in adolescence (which may last several years) where due to how their neural connections are maturing, they are really bad at making wise decisions. The whole teenage, moody, disagreeable phase comes from this. The thing about smoking is that it's very hard to stop once you start, and some people who start smoking as teenagers will be unable to quit in the long term and will end up dying of a smoking related illness (and having seen a family member suffer for years with emphysema before finally dying of it, it's a long, slow, painful death). Parents will do whatever they can to avoid their darling babies dying a long, slow, painful death, even when said darling baby is now an obnoxious stroppy teen. While adults can easily rationalise, e.g. "yeah that character may look cool with a cigarette in his mouth, but I don't want to get lung cancer and I'm not stupid enough to start smoking just because some antihero character in a book does" - many teenagers don't think like that... could be more like "all the cool kids at school smoke, this character's cool and he smokes, mum keeps saying not to smoke but she never lets me do anything fun"... etc. They can't even imagine being 30, never mind being 60 and dying from smoking related illness. I'm not remotely saying that ALL teenagers think like this. But some do and the decision to start smoking is one that potentially has decades of consequences.

Repeat the above for all risky behavours - unprotected sex, playing "chicken" in the traffic, joyriding, knife crime, gun crime, drugs, etc, etc, etc.

I'm not going to ban my kids from reading books that contain these things. If it's done in a realistic way that shows realistic consequences (nauseating moralistic tales with unrealistic bad consequences are probably worse than glamorising those things) then I'm fine with them reading it when they're about 14-15. The one thing I read as a young adult that I found portrayed drugs in the most off-putting way was a biography of Keith Richards. This is after reading and seeing so much from the rock music scene that glamorised drugs. Keith Richards is often portrayed as an antihero and the amount of heroin he used to take as some kind of macho feat. Reading about the reality of what drugs did to him and his family and friends was a shock. There was nothing remotely glamorous about it. It wasn't written with the intention of shocking young wannabe-rock-stars out of taking drugs. It was just written to portray the truth.

Therein lies the difference between what kind of thing I'll let my daughters read and what will have to wait until they're fully grown.

Bear in mind that there are massive differences between parents and what they will and won't let their kids read. I'm on the lenient end of the spectrum, though I do impose some restrictions (more a "wait until you're older" thing than "never"). Some parents tried to get Harry Potter banned from school libraries because it contains magic.

Answering this question as a writer: I wrote a novel when I was 13 where the MC's older brother was a sort of Godfather of the local illegal drug trade and it was extremely violent with loads of drug taking and also smuggling, dealing, firearms, prostitution, suicide and all sorts. I'm not sure I'd allow my kids to read it when they're 13. (Or possibly at all because while the story's quite gripping the quality of writing is ........ agggh!) It would probably get an 18 certificate if made into a film, but I was only 13 when I wrote it. Lol.

I respect your POV and agree with most of it.

But from my POV it depends on the teens. My best friend when I was 13 already had a baby. I don't remember how old I was when I smoked my first joint but my two-years older brother gave it to me and I'm pretty sure he was still in middle school. At 13 I ran away and made it from LA to New York before getting caught and sent home.

As for not glamorizing it, I wholeheartedly agree.

My own experiences and treating my son as an intelligent being, (or else his genetics and own experiences), helped me raise a son who did not go through what I did. Keeping my own reality from him was not something I valued. Being careful how I exposed him to it was. On the other hand, he like me, had his own experience of reality.

I never told him or controlled what he could or could not read. You teach or impart the values you want your child to have. You have to give them the freedom then and trust they have adopted those values.

By the time they are teens, they are not telling you everything in their lives and it's easy to underestimate how much reality they are experiencing or being exposed to.

emstar94 · Aug 24, 2017

Some awesome responses.

Also, just want to say, everyone who smokes a joint or a cigarette or a beer will not automatically become an addict-for-life / alcoholic - going down a dark dark path... there's different things people try and sometimes that's as far as it goes.

Growing up, I couldn't stand books that demonised any and all substances. I actually think that's more destructive than showing it just, realistically.

Pretty much everyone I know has smoked weed at some point. But I only know one full-on never-does-anything-else stoner.

Is my book too much for YA

emstar94

gmwhitley

Splendor

emstar94

Hbooks

emstar94

Marissa D

Scribe of the girls in the basement

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

emstar94

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Fruitbat

.

emstar94

Splendor

Fruitbat

.

emstar94

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

emstar94

SpinningWheel

M Louise

randi.lee

Certified Non-Genius

DarienW

MaeZe

neandermagnon

Nolite timere, consilium callidum habeo!

MaeZe

emstar94

Is my book *too much* for YA

Scribe of the girls in the basement

Rewriting My Destiny

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

.

.

Rewriting My Destiny

Certified Non-Genius

Nolite timere, consilium callidum habeo!

Is my book too much for YA