I don't want to self-publish, but I don't want to work with one of the really big publishers either

Status
Not open for further replies.

Iconian

Registered
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
This is a discussion thread for all of this. You can find the actual list of publishers/agents here: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/sho...the-Publishing-Galaxy&p=10243688#post10243688


For the past couple months I've been looking around for a book publisher and agent, and it's quite a daunting task. In particular, I've been reading about how most of the book publishers out there offer very poor contract terms to authors, and this is something I absolutely want to avoid.

On the other hand, I really don't want to self-publish either. I know that self-publishing typically requires a ton of effort with the marketing and related tasks. But that's just not something I really want to do, certainly not any time soon at least.

I'm perfectly willing to share a percentage of my royalties with an agent and publisher, in exchange for them working hard to market my book--but the more I read, the more I'm convinced that the publishing industry has nearly a stranglehold on authors, with onerous contract clauses and low royalties going back to those authors, who usually end up doing most of the work of promotion themselves, in addition to the work of having already written the book.

I want to find a publisher that I can experience a much more equal relationship with--much closer to 50/50, instead of the 90/10 publisher/author relationships I've been reading about, when authors are so desperate that they'll sign up with just about any deal they're offered, for the privilege of seeing their work in print. I've read about a lot of bad publishers now, so I know that's not the kind of relationship I want.

I've read a lot of stuff promoting self-publishing, but as yet I've been unable to find what I'm looking for: a list of publishers that occupy the middle ground between the bigger, older publishers that have been doing things their way, and self-publishing. I've already done a fair amount of looking around for this type of publisher, so I know there are many self-published authors that have stepped up and created their own businesses to heavily market their own books and such--and done so at far lower cost than if they had gone through a typical publisher. If there are such businesses following this model, then surely there must be some publishers out there that have a greater focus on the authors they've published. But who?

I've come up with a list of items I'm hoping to find in my "ideal publisher." Perhaps there aren't any publishers out there that hit all of these points, but there must be those that hit several, at least.

Or does such a "unicorn" truly exist?

1. Gives a much fairer portion of royalties to writers. The industry standard is that authors get something like 10-15% of the money generated by the books they create. I'm hoping to keep around 50% of all the money my book makes, possibly higher (and not merely 50% of "gross profits" or 50% of "net profits" or some other shenanigans).

2. No unconscionable or incredibly unfair contract clauses. As an author, it doesn't make sense to me to sign a contract that could pretty much permanently lock me in with a publishing company—especially if it turns out to be a bad relationship. I want to find a publisher that is prepared to allow its authors to leave if they don't feel they're treated right, particularly without having a string of legal issues to deal with.

3. A real commitment to actually marketing my book. THIS, so far as I can tell, is the single biggest reason authors should even pay publishers in the first place. I've now read a number of stories of authors whose books were barely even marketed by their publishers. If a publisher isn't going to put any real effort behind me as an author, why would I want to give them a big chunk of the money that my book makes? I may as well get on with self-publishing, and then market the book myself.

4. A US-based publisher. I live in the US, and from what I understand it would probably be a pretty big hassle to work with a foreign company.

5. Global reach. I'm pretty sure that I don't want to work with one of the really big publishers. If they met the above points I'd consider it, but my feeling is that, with the publishing industry as it stands today, a medium or small publisher is the way to go. But I'd also like to get my book sold overseas. This point probably isn't as important as those above though.

6. Not a vanity press. I don't want to have to pay someone upfront to see my book in print.

7. A strong, proven track record. I believe that my book would be extremely popular and sell loads of copies, if marketed correctly (yeah, we writers are all self-delusional, right? Of course I think I'm special :) ). I'd strongly prefer to work with a publisher that has already proven that it's good at getting product sold to customers in large quantities. This probably means that they've already developed a decent platform/network, both for marketing and distribution.

8. You have personal experience with the publisher--as an author. If you'd share some of your positive experiences with such companies, I think it'd probably be helpful to not just myself, but a lot of other writers in my position.

9. A publisher of fiction. My book is fictional. Publishers exclusively focused on non-fiction won't be useful for me--but don't be afraid to include them to benefit other readers of this thread.

10. Genres published include: romance, chicklit, women's fiction, New Adult. Again, if you know a company that fits the other points above but not this point, don't be afraid to include it.

OK. I should probably leave it at that. My points are already beginning to sound a little redundant.

If possible, I request that those reading this reply to this post with the names of publishers that you believe fit as many of the above categories as possible. I don't just want this thread to be for me, but to be useful to as many authors as possible. But I hope most posted here will hit many or most of the points I've above. And in any case, if there's a company that you think just isn't worth working with, even if it falls into several of these categories, don't post it.

Beyond that, I'll give a couple examples below of companies that sound quite good to me.
 
Last edited:

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,213
Reaction score
15,827
Location
Australia.
Goodness me, where on earth are you getting your information?
 

Iconian

Registered
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Crossroad Press:

I don't really know what their contracts might be like--but from their "About" page, they have a strong commitment to their authors, not just maxing out their own profits. They give the author 80% of net sales (and apparently net sales means all the money taken in from all the books sold, minus any money for returns, damaged or lost books, that sort of thing).

And if you're wondering why I don't try to go with Crossroads Press if I like them so much, they apparently only work with authors that have already been published, but I'm trying to get my first book published.




TCK Publishing: They accept fiction and non-fiction, in pretty much every genre out there. And, from their submissions page:

"At TCK Publishing, we believe in creating long-term partnerships that are good for you and for us. That’s why we split all royalties with our authors 50/50, so you’re earning 3-6 times the amount of royalties you would with a typical traditional publisher. Our goal is to help you earn a full-time income from book sales."

These guys sound pretty good to me, but right now I feel like I want to continue researching still.


Hopefully others will also start commenting on this thread with better publishers they know of out there.
 

Iconian

Registered
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Goodness me, where on earth are you getting your information?

A little of it I've found from Absolute Write. Some of it I've found just looking around the internet, reading about self-publishing.
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,213
Reaction score
15,827
Location
Australia.
Crossroad Press:

I don't really know what their contracts might be like--but from their "About" page, they have a strong commitment to their authors, not just maxing out their own profits. They give the author 80% of net sales (and apparently net sales means all the money taken in from all the books sold, minus any money for returns, damaged or lost books, that sort of thing).

And if you're wondering why I don't try to go with Crossroads Press if I like them so much, they apparently only work with authors that have already been published, but I'm trying to get my first book published.




TCK Publishing: They accept fiction and non-fiction, in pretty much every genre out there. And, from their submissions page:

"At TCK Publishing, we believe in creating long-term partnerships that are good for you and for us. That’s why we split all royalties with our authors 50/50, so you’re earning 3-6 times the amount of royalties you would with a typical traditional publisher. Our goal is to help you earn a full-time income from book sales."

These guys sound pretty good to me, but right now I feel like I want to continue researching still.


Hopefully others will also start commenting on this thread with better publishers they know of out there.

A better way of approaching this might be for you to check these threads for info on publishers. (Also agents) .
 
Last edited:

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
A little of it I've found from Absolute Write. Some of it I've found just looking around the internet, reading about self-publishing.

Right. Have you considered some of those resources might be somewhat, I dunno, biased or promoting a particular idea?
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,213
Reaction score
15,827
Location
Australia.
It might be that I'm mis-reading, but this has me confused
I'm perfectly willing to share a percentage of my royalties with an agent and publisher, in exchange for them working hard to market my book--but the more I read, the more I'm convinced that the publishing industry has nearly a stranglehold on authors, with onerous contract clauses and low royalties going back to those authors, who usually end up doing most of the work of promotion themselves, in addition to the work of having already written the book.

I want to find a publisher that I can experience a much more equal relationship with--much closer to 50/50, instead of the 90/10 publisher/author relationships I've been reading about, when authors are so desperate that they'll sign up with just about any deal they're offered, for the privilege of seeing their work in print. I've read about a lot of bad publishers now, so I know that's not the kind of relationship I want.
I don't think that trade published authors are so desperate to see their work in print that they've signed outrageous deals. I think you'll find there are quite a few elements that go into sales beyond simply the writing of the book.

You're welcome to self-pub of course, and a lot of people do and do it very successfully, but I think some of your ideas about how trade publishing works are wildly incorrect. This is not to say that self-pubbing is a better or worse option - just that both options exists, each is different, and each, done well, deserves respect.
 

Marian Perera

starting over
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
14,333
Reaction score
4,578
Location
Heaven is a place on earth called Toronto.
Website
www.marianperera.com
...the more I read, the more I'm convinced that the publishing industry has nearly a stranglehold on authors, with onerous contract clauses and low royalties going back to those authors, who usually end up doing most of the work of promotion themselves, in addition to the work of having already written the book.

I'm just curious. Is there anything you feel publishers do to market and advertise books?
 

Silva

saucy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 24, 2015
Messages
1,764
Reaction score
260
Website
twitter.com
I don't get it.

No one is holding a gun to your head and saying "90% of your profits, or your life!" So why turn down offers before they're even made, before you've even seen them, before you know if they're unfair or not?


Also, gross profits is before expenses are deducted, and net profits is after expenses are deducted. They're real words that mean real things; there's no need for scare quotes or paranoia.
 

Iconian

Registered
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
A better way of approaching this might be for you to check these threads for info on publishers. (Also agents) .

Hi, thank you for pointing those threads out to me. I'd actually looked at some of those threads already. Obviously there's a ton of different publishers out there, as that "Index" thread shows. I'm most hoping to find the better publishers out there--and especially those publishers that some published authors have already had good experiences with.

Right. Have you considered some of those resources might be somewhat, I dunno, biased or promoting a particular idea?

I think there a lot of biased people out there. Here are a couple of the sites I've been reading info from.

http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2012/05/unconscionability.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-3-models-of-modern-pu_b_12119712.html


The first site is by a guy promoting self-publishing. With the second one, I think he self-published, but later I think he joined TCK Publishing, if I remember right. I did a little research on them, and then I listed them earlier, as it sounds like they might be a pretty good publisher. So, yes, they might well be biased in favor of self-publishing. But especially with Joe Konrath, I doubt that he'd have any goal other than to help authors avoid unpleasant publishing deals.

I don't think that trade published authors are so desperate to see their work in print that they've signed outrageous deals. I think you'll find there are quite a few elements that go into sales beyond simply the writing of the book.

I think it really depends on the author, but yeah, if you dig down I suppose it's probably more ignorance or a lack of good of prospects than actual desperation. For instance, Joe Konrath, whose guide I linked to above, I think kind of felt like he had to take whatever he could get for his book. I'm sure it depends on the individual and the book, but the more I read, the more it sounds as though authors feel like they must take whatever offer they can get, or risk never being published. It seems to be a sad state of affairs in the publishing world today, but at least it sounds as though self-publishing and ebooks have been changing things.

And yes, there's more to book sales than the quality of the book. I do want a publisher that's good at marketing, and I'm quite happy to give a publisher a chunk of money from the sale of each of my books, if they really do a good job at marketing and everything else. But I do want to be as sure as possible that the chunk of money I'm giving them is worth it.

You're welcome to self-pub of course, and a lot of people do and do it very successfully, but I think some of your ideas about how trade publishing works are wildly incorrect. This is not to say that self-pubbing is a better or worse option - just that both options exists, each is different, and each, done well, deserves respect.

No, I really don't want to self-publish, if I can avoid it, if I can find a publisher that's really good, like I said in the initial post.

I'm just curious. Is there anything you feel publishers do to market and advertise books?

Yes, I'm sure there must be many that do good jobs. But I believe it does depend a lot on the company. Some do a great job, and others barely do anything. And that's part of the purpose of this thread. Like I said in my first post, I want to find publishers out there that are actually actually good, and one element of that is marketing.

And now, I'm curious, with the way you couch your response: do you happen to know of any publishers out there that are especially good at marketing? If you know of some I'd love to hear about it, and I think it would be helpful to a lot of other authors reading this thread as well. :)

No one is holding a gun to your head and saying "90% of your profits, or your life!" So why turn down offers before they're even made, before you've even seen them, before you know if they're unfair or not?

I haven't turned down any offers yet . . . I haven't been given any offers yet.

I think it's in the interest of all authors to try to find the best deal for their books. If I was given an offer, I personally would want to get as good a picture as reasonable, of both the publisher and that offer.

Also, gross profits is before expenses are deducted, and net profits is after expenses are deducted. They're real words that mean real things; there's no need for scare quotes or paranoia.

I know they're real things, but I'm also aware that some authors get confused by the meanings of the terms and end up receiving far less in royalties than they were expecting, seeing as most authors don't know much about accounting terminology. Naturally authors should take "buyer beware" to heart and research before making publishing decisions, but I personally would prefer not to work with more unscrupulous publishers that might attempt to deliberately mislead authors with confusing legal jargon. It's my hope that this thread will help in this goal and direct authors to the better publishers more easily.












Beyond that, thank you all for your responses. Once again, what better publishing companies out there would you recommend? I'd prefer this list to be of companies that you've worked with personally and thus know to be better, but if you've heard from others some specific reasons about companies that are particularly good, that would be fine as well :)
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,537
Reaction score
24,109
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
I think one big piece you're missing is advances. As a general rule, a larger publisher is likely to give you a larger advance. Given the percentage of books that don't earn out their advances, there's a lot to be said for money up front.

It's also worth noting, I think, that a lot of the marketing a publisher does isn't to readers - it's to booksellers. The way you make sales is for readers to find out you're there, and that's generally through the sales channel.

Don't assume that people take deals with larger publishers out of desperation. (It's actually really weird to me that there are people who think that - like there are thousands of trade deals lurking in alleys, waiting to take advantage of unsuspecting newbies.) There's often a reason a larger publisher is larger, and it's often because they're good at making their money back on books they buy.

I also disbelieve large publishers fish around for desperate authors and lowball them. That's different than a specific author not being offered what they think their work is worth - but publishing is a small business. Any publisher who acts often enough like a jerk is going to earn the sort of reputation that will keep them from seeing manuscripts from the sorts of authors they want to publish (see the Bewares section here for how quickly unprofessional behavior can affect a business).
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,213
Reaction score
15,827
Location
Australia.
Don't assume that people take deals with larger publishers out of desperation. (It's actually really weird to me that there are people who think that - like there are thousands of trade deals lurking in alleys, waiting to take advantage of unsuspecting newbies.)
Yes. OP, I think there's a bit of a cart-before-horse thing that's happening here. It's great that you're doing your research, but you need to be sure you're getting the correct basic information first. Asking what middle-sized publishing houses you should approach for a deal on a book that we have no information about beyond the fact that it's fiction by a debut author, and further asking us to make those suggestions based on some idea that bigger publishing houses are ripping off desperate and ignorant authors is not likely to get you the kind of helpful, informed advice you're after.
 

Iconian

Registered
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
I think one big piece you're missing is advances. As a general rule, a larger publisher is likely to give you a larger advance. Given the percentage of books that don't earn out their advances, there's a lot to be said for money up front.

I can understand that. Speaking for myself, I'd prefer to find a publisher that does a very effective job with the marketing, such that it translates to many more sales in the long term, than to find one that gives me a bigger advance in the short term. I suppose that's a risk of sorts itself. If my book doesn't sell well, I suppose I could consoled with my advance. Other authors might feel differently, but it's a risk I'd probably be willing to take. Of course, I'd prefer to get some advance, at least.

Don't assume that people take deals with larger publishers out of desperation.

I don't believe all authors do, by any means. But I believe some do. I think those links I shared talk about it some. Let me put it this way: I figure there's some percentage of writers that publish because they're desperate for publication. Maybe it's only 10%. Whatever the number, I personally want to get my book published because I've found the best publisher I'm likely to find.

I also disbelieve large publishers fish around for desperate authors and lowball them.

I've been talking with my family about this very subject, and I think you're right. I doubt any publishers are out there looking around for authors to rip off. But I do think there is a certain way of doing business that's imbedded in modern publishing culture. The current industry standards are widely accepted. My opinion, and the opinion of Joe Konrath and Tucker Max, whose articles I linked to earlier, is that the current business culture in the publishing world is very unfair to the majority of authors. More and more authors are feeling this way, and that's why there's been such a rise in self-publication in recent years.

But while I agree with them, I feel that there must be some companies out there that are trying to shake off that culture, and give their authors better deals. I mentioned Crossroad Press earlier. This is straight from the their "About" page, http://crossroadpress.com/about/

We keep our bottom line as low as possible. Most cover art is handled in house. We are committed to never changing the original model. Eighty percent of all net sales of eBooks go to the author. A clean copy of any scanned book goes to the author. We handle everything, and the author gets 80 percent, mostly on works that are just not available. . . . So, our dedication is to our authors, and to keeping the prices down for our readers. I believe that this is the future of publishing. I don’t think the bigger publishers are “getting” it fast enough. They still own rights to people like King, Koontz, Patterson, etc., and until those cash-cows begin to fade, they will continue to charge too much for electronic editions, gobbling up rights to old titles they never push, and trying to shore up the walls of a crumbling, changing business. Witness our growing relationship with horror great Clive Barker.

Like I said, I've never been published, so I can't go with Crossroad Press. And, I do have to wonder how much actual marketing Crossroad can do, if their authors get 80% royalties. But I don't know that I want 80% royalties anyway--I want a publisher that will do real marketing. But I'd also like to know they're not just throwing money around blindly, without getting much in the way of results.

see the Bewares section here for how quickly unprofessional behavior can affect a business

I looked at a few of those--but I think that what would really be useful is a list of publishers that are actually really good at what they do, and most worthwhile for the money they're getting--particularly when viewed in the light of self-publishing.


So, lizmonster, let me ask you then: just glancing at the Amazon page you linked to for "The Cold Between," it looks like it's published by Harper Voyager--a Harper Collins imprint, I'm guessing? Is Harper Voyager who you're talking about then--a company that you feel is really worthwhile for authors to get published with? Would you care to share your experience with them--or do you perhaps have a thread around here somewhere with your experience?

That's the purpose of this thread: to help me, and other potential authors, find some companies out there that are really good--preferably companies that other authors out there have had good experiences with. I'd love to find the best of the best for this thread. After all, the publishers have traditionally been very choosy about the books they accept, but shouldn't such judgements go both ways? Isn't it worthwhile to point out the best publishers in the industry for authors?




Asking what middle-sized publishing houses you should approach for a deal on a book that we have no information about beyond the fact that it's fiction by a debut author, and further asking us to make those suggestions based on some idea that bigger publishing houses are ripping off desperate and ignorant authors is not likely to get you the kind of helpful, informed advice you're after.

mccardey: you've now repeatedly brought up questions that I addressed in the original post. Did you actually read through my whole first post? Perhaps I was little unclear though. Here's what I said on point 10, from my first post:

10. Genres published include: romance, chicklit, women's fiction, New Adult. Again, if you know a company that fits the other points above but not this point, don't be afraid to include it.

Those are the genres I'm most interested in. Of course, if you know of some better publishers out there that don't publish in those genres, I think it could still be useful for other authors to mention here--assuming they meet most of the other points I talked about above. There are clearly a number of lists already on Absolute Write that give off names of all sorts of publishers--particularly the Writer Beware Two Thumbs Down Publisher List: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/sho...ware-quot-Two-Thumbs-Down-quot-Publisher-List


How about a fairly up-to-date list of the best publishers out there? If you and others start posting the names of better publishing houses here, then I and other authors can go through the list and try to find the publishers most fitting our needs.
 
Last edited:

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,213
Reaction score
15,827
Location
Australia.
mccardey: you've now repeatedly brought up questions that I addressed in the original post. Did you actually read through my whole first post? Perhaps I was little unclear though. Here's what I said on point 10, from my first post:


10. Genres published include: romance, chicklit, women's fiction, New Adult. Again, if you know a company that fits the other points above but not this point, don't be afraid to include it.
Yes, see - that tells me nothing about your book. Romance is not the same as New Adult, for instance. And even if you had given one specific genre, a word-count, a comparison or two and a rough idea of plot and character, it still wouldn't really be enough for the kind of specific info you're after, which again is based on the view you have of Big Publishing. You've got such a specific world view re: trade publishing, that the general sort of advice one would give doesn't really fit in - because your world view is not terribly accurate.

And I'm not inclined to work from that view point because a) I think it's wrong and therefore that this thread won't be helpful to other new writers, and b) because I think it sails pretty close to being disrespectful to big publishing, and to the writers here who are published by big publishing.

Good luck with your journey, and I hope you'll stick around and learn a lot from AW. (If it helps, my publishers aren't US-based anyway, so I doubt my info would have been very valuable to you.)
 
Last edited:

Iconian

Registered
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
And I'm not inclined to work from that view point because a) I think it's wrong and therefore that this thread won't be helpful to other new writers, and b) because I think it sails pretty close to being disrespectful to big publishing, and to the writers here who are published by big publishing.

It's fine. This thread isn't meant to disrespect any particular publishing houses. Of course, there are plenty of threads on AW that mention specific publishing houses authors ought to avoid--for example, the thread I linked to previously, Writer Beware Two Thumbs Down Publisher List. As a matter of fact, this thread is intended to do essentially the exact opposite--to point out the brightest (and not merely the biggest) stars of the publishing galaxy, if you'll pardon the metaphor. Focusing on such excellence will, I believe, be useful to authors out there.
 

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
What is the point of compiling lists of publishers, especially related to imprints of the big five? If you're made an offer by one, you can check them out, but this is so before the cart. It's not as if you're the one submitting.

If you're talking about indie presses, there are plenty of threads I believe.
 

Iconian

Registered
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
What is the point of compiling lists of publishers, especially related to imprints of the big five?

I think there's been some misunderstanding. As I said in my original post, I'm not particularly interested in big publishers. But if some of the authors on here that have worked with them have found one or more of them to be really good, then by all means, I'd love to hear about them. lizmonster seemed to be defending big publishers, so that's why I asked about hers. But in general, I'd prefer the focus to be on smaller publishers.

If you're made an offer by one, you can check them out, but this is so before the cart.

This thread is intended to help me, and other authors out there, narrow the field of publishers to submit to in the first place. I'd rather not search manually for needles in haystacks; this thread is intended to be a magnet, and save a lot of time. Hopefully, some others will start posting to this thread about the better publishers they know of.

If you're talking about indie presses, there are plenty of threads I believe.

I've found some threads on AW with lists of different publishers, but most of them seem to be lists of who to avoid. I haven't seen anything like a "best of the best" list of publishers. Do you know one?

Again, this thread is meant to be more of a magnet. At some point, once a nice list has developed here, perhaps it can even be stickied, so that authors looking for good publishers will know where to look. Instead of having to pore over tons of threads and posts all over this forum, authors will be able to look at this thread, to quickly discover the publishers they should try to focus their efforts on.





I really don't understand why thus far no one seems to think this is a good idea. No one except me has given even a single publisher name for recommendation. How can it not be a good thing to narrow down a huge list of publishers to contact, some of whom are good and some of whom are bad, to a much smaller and more manageable list of GOOD publishers?
 

Marian Perera

starting over
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
14,333
Reaction score
4,578
Location
Heaven is a place on earth called Toronto.
Website
www.marianperera.com
And now, I'm curious, with the way you couch your response: do you happen to know of any publishers out there that are especially good at marketing? If you know of some I'd love to hear about it, and I think it would be helpful to a lot of other authors reading this thread as well. :)

As lizmonster mentioned, a lot of the marketing publishers do is to bookstores. But other types of marketing I've seen include advertisements (both IRL and online), displays in bookstores, and making sure books are sent to reviewers (I review for All About Romance, and we get glowing recommendations about new books from publicists working for major publishers).

I don't know what your definition of "especially good at marketing" is, though.

And even if you had given one specific genre, a word-count, a comparison or two and a rough idea of plot and character, it still wouldn't really be enough for the kind of specific info you're after, which again is based on the view you have of Big Publishing. You've got such a specific world view re: trade publishing, that the general sort of advice one would give doesn't really fit in - because your world view is not terribly accurate.

Years ago, I got into a discussion with an author whose first book was released by PublishAmerica. He'd paid sixty-something dollars to have it as an ebook as well (priced at over twenty dollars), but he was convinced that he'd gotten the best possible deal because other publishers either didn't take unagented manuscripts or were vanity presses. I said there were several reputable small presses which accepted unagented manuscripts. When he asked for the names of a few, I provided a short list.

He replied, "I've checked out these publishers you mentioned. Thomas Nelson - they own a vanity press. Very disappointing. Samhain - they sued Ellora's Cave. I'm disappointed to hear that." And so on. He found something disappointing about every press on the list, and I realized at once that he wasn't engaging in the discussion to look for a good publishing deal as much as he was trying to justify his decision to go with PublishAmerica.

So I don't think there's much point in compiling a list of (what I consider to be) good publishers, because someone else might have a completely different idea of what makes a publisher good.
 

Iconian

Registered
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
I don't know what your definition of "especially good at marketing" is, though.

Ultimately, do they get results? I suppose that's really the final question. But well before that question, there are others we can ask along the way. Particularly, how much effort does a given publisher make to market books? Some do little or none, just publishing the book and taking most of the money of any sales it does make.

So I don't think there's much point in compiling a list of (what I consider to be) good publishers, because someone else might have a completely different idea of what makes a publisher good.

I'd say it's mostly subjective. But I've found some threads on AW that highlight some of the worst publishers or the worst agents around. Those are fairly subjective. So why not a thread to highlight the best publishers?

However, one area fairly quantifiable place we could start with is the royalties different publishers pay. Earlier I mentioned Crossroad Press, which pays 80% royalties, and TCK, which does 50%. Do you know of some other publishers that offer royalties that are higher the, say, 15% industry standard?
 

Marian Perera

starting over
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
14,333
Reaction score
4,578
Location
Heaven is a place on earth called Toronto.
Website
www.marianperera.com
Ultimately, do they get results?

What would you consider to be results?

I think there's also a subjective element to this. For instance, a particular publisher might do very well with a hyper-steamy M/M full-length romance, but not so well with a relatively sweet M/F novella.

I suppose that's really the final question. But well before that question, there are others we can ask along the way. Particularly, how much effort does a given publisher make to market books? Some do little or none, just publishing the book and taking most of the money of any sales it does make.

If there's a particular publisher you have in mind, you could mention them and see if there's any feedback with regard to the effort they make in marketing.

I'd say it's mostly subjective. But I've found some threads on AW that highlight some of the worst publishers or the worst agents around. Those are fairly subjective.

Not necessarily. An agent who charges one client thousands of dollars is likely to be bad for other clients as well. An agent who sells one client's book for a six-figure sum... that's wonderful news, but does it mean the agent is going to be great for other clients as well? It depends. Is the agent open to unsolicited queries? What sort of manuscripts does the agent accept? Was the six-figure deal for a debut author or for someone established? How long ago was this deal made?

So why not a thread to highlight the best publishers?

I have a feeling that if it was a good idea to make a thread about the best publishers, it would have been done before now.

Do you know of some other publishers that offer royalties that are higher the, say, 15% industry standard?

Every contract I've signed has been for a higher percentage of royalties than this.
 
Last edited:

Curlz

cutsie-pie
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
2,213
Reaction score
382
Location
here
How can it not be a good thing to narrow down a huge list of publishers to contact, some of whom are good and some of whom are bad, to a much smaller and more manageable list of GOOD publishers?

The really good ones work with agents only. So there's no need for such a list, your agent goes around contacting them. The small press who accept unsolicited manuscripts from authors and are able to select well (no mean feat) are really a handful, mostly specific genre. The perfect publisher you're looking for does not exist for purely economic reasons, they all have some "flaw". Most small press don't distribute well (if at all) with bookstores all over the country, can't sell foreign rights because people abroad want "bestsellers" instead, and even if they offer 50% royalties, that will not be much due to the small sales you could achieve with them. That's why you'll notice people on writing forums talk a lot about agents instead of about small publishers.
 

Helix

socially distancing
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
11,695
Reaction score
12,079
Location
Atherton Tablelands
Website
snailseyeview.medium.com
1. Gives a much fairer portion of royalties to writers. The industry standard is that authors get something like 10-15% of the money generated by the books they create. I'm hoping to keep around 50% of all the money my book makes, possibly higher (and not merely 50% of "gross profits" or 50% of "net profits" or some other shenanigans).

There's an important difference between gross and net, and you really need to understand what those words mean.

2. No unconscionable or incredibly unfair contract clauses. As an author, it doesn't make sense to me to sign a contract that could pretty much permanently lock me in with a publishing company—especially if it turns out to be a bad relationship. I want to find a publisher that is prepared to allow its authors to leave if they don't feel they're treated right, particularly without having a string of legal issues to deal with.

An agent will negotiate for you. But remember that contracts are important in business deals -- and publishing a book is a business deal.

3. A real commitment to actually marketing my book. THIS, so far as I can tell, is the single biggest reason authors should even pay publishers in the first place. I've now read a number of stories of authors whose books were barely even marketed by their publishers. If a publisher isn't going to put any real effort behind me as an author, why would I want to give them a big chunk of the money that my book makes? I may as well get on with self-publishing, and then market the book myself.

If you think authors pay trade publishers, you probably need to read more about the publishing process. Publishing houses acquire titles on the basis of commercial potential, pay advances to the authors, edit manuscripts, commission covers, employ designers, pay for printing and distribution, and undertake marketing. Marketing is a lot more than paying for adverts in magazines.

4. A US-based publisher. I live in the US, and from what I understand it would probably be a pretty big hassle to work with a foreign company.

Nah. People do it all the time. You might be surprised at who owns some of the really big trade publishers.

5. Global reach. I'm pretty sure that I don't want to work with one of the really big publishers. If they met the above points I'd consider it, but my feeling is that, with the publishing industry as it stands today, a medium or small publisher is the way to go. But I'd also like to get my book sold overseas. This point probably isn't as important as those above though.

This is where an agent can be an advantage.

6. Not a vanity press. I don't want to have to pay someone upfront to see my book in print.

Or after the fact, presumably.

7. A strong, proven track record. I believe that my book would be extremely popular and sell loads of copies, if marketed correctly (yeah, we writers are all self-delusional, right? Of course I think I'm special :) ). I'd strongly prefer to work with a publisher that has already proven that it's good at getting product sold to customers in large quantities. This probably means that they've already developed a decent platform/network, both for marketing and distribution.

You'll need one of the big trade publishers or one of the well-established independents. There are many good independent publishers. Australia has Allen & Unwin, Text, Scribe, and others. The UK has Faber & Faber, Bloomsbury, Salt and a load more. No idea about the US and Canadian ones, but it can't be hard to research them.

8. You have personal experience with the publisher--as an author. If you'd share some of your positive experiences with such companies, I think it'd probably be helpful to not just myself, but a lot of other writers in my position.

There's plenty of info in the forum. You might have to dig around for it.

9. A publisher of fiction. My book is fictional. Publishers exclusively focused on non-fiction won't be useful for me--but don't be afraid to include them to benefit other readers of this thread.

10. Genres published include: romance, chicklit, women's fiction, New Adult. Again, if you know a company that fits the other points above but not this point, don't be afraid to include it.

This is a piece of piss piece of cake to research. Just look at the books closest to your own and see who publishes them. This is basis stuff.
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,537
Reaction score
24,109
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
Since you asked, Iconian - yes, Voyager is a HarperCollins imprint. You'd get fine service if you published with them. They're staffed by talented professionals, and they've also been a pleasure to work with.

But you keep asking about marketing. As I said earlier, marketing isn't what we tend to think it is as readers. The goal of marketing is to get booksellers to stock your book (and sometimes feature it - most of that table placement you see is paid for). A lot of that happens behind the scenes with publishing journals and other industry publications. And yes, I'm still ignorant of most of it - but good marketing isn't something you see on YouTube (or at least not only :)).

It's also worth noting that marketing can't make a book a success. The publisher does the best they can to make readers pick it up, and after that it's word of mouth. No amount of marketing magic is going to make you Stephen King if you don't hit that vein of public popularity. Publishers are art brokers. It's still readers who have to buy the art.

As to your assertion about people taking trade deals from big publishers because they're desperate to publish: still not buying it, sorry. If HC makes you an offer, you've likely got something you could shop to someplace smaller that would cheerfully take it. And with the support around self-publishing these days? There's never a reason to take a book deal that you don't like.

There's a bizarre assumption of antagonism around trade publishing. They're running a business, yes, but they literally can't do it without authors.

And the only authors I've personally heard of getting screwed by their contracts have all been with smaller pubs.
 

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
I think there's been some misunderstanding. As I said in my original post, I'm not particularly interested in big publishers. But if some of the authors on here that have worked with them have found one or more of them to be really good, then by all means, I'd love to hear about them. lizmonster seemed to be defending big publishers, so that's why I asked about hers. But in general, I'd prefer the focus to be on smaller publishers.



This thread is intended to help me, and other authors out there, narrow the field of publishers to submit to in the first place. I'd rather not search manually for needles in haystacks; this thread is intended to be a magnet, and save a lot of time. Hopefully, some others will start posting to this thread about the better publishers they know of.



I've found some threads on AW with lists of different publishers, but most of them seem to be lists of who to avoid. I haven't seen anything like a "best of the best" list of publishers. Do you know one?

Again, this thread is meant to be more of a magnet. At some point, once a nice list has developed here, perhaps it can even be stickied, so that authors looking for good publishers will know where to look. Instead of having to pore over tons of threads and posts all over this forum, authors will be able to look at this thread, to quickly discover the publishers they should try to focus their efforts on.





I really don't understand why thus far no one seems to think this is a good idea. No one except me has given even a single publisher name for recommendation. How can it not be a good thing to narrow down a huge list of publishers to contact, some of whom are good and some of whom are bad, to a much smaller and more manageable list of GOOD publishers?

Uhm, because you're not going to be submitting to the best of the best publishers, so why make a list? As I said, that's an issue whereby, if one of those houses (or a subsidiary) makes an offer, you can check.
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,537
Reaction score
24,109
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
As to why there's no great master list for you:

Every book has different strengths and weaknesses.
No two books are handled the same way, even by the same publisher.
Marketing, even by marketing geniuses, isn't a magic bullet.
Each writer is going to have different needs and desires for their work.

What's being said here is that your reasons for eschewing larger pubs are, as stated, mostly specious. That doesn't mean you should change your mind about them, just that I'd hate to have other people stumbling on this thread and seeing misconceptions go unchallenged.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.