Word Count Question

Byeka · Aug 19, 2017

Hello Agents on Absolute Write,

I come to you with a question about my book's word count, and making submissions. This is a YA Urban Fantasy novel and I have no publishing credits.

When I originally completed my manuscript, back around 2013 I had a massive word count of around 150,000. Obviously, this was far too long so I spent about two years editing, using beta readers, implementing suggestions and more editing to get it down. Finally, I submitted when it was around 111,000 words, but I was told it was still too long. I managed to scrape every last bit of anything that wasn't core story out, and got it down to 98,000 words, and I'm still being told it's too long, although hopefully this is manageable.

I've been advised to get it below 90,000. The only way I see this as possible at this point is by eliminating core story and weakening my overall premise. I can do it, but I won't be happy with what I have to cut in order to make it happen. The way the book works now, characters and their decisions make sense. The reasoning and rational behind everything is clear. If I make these cuts just to get it below the 90,000 mark, the reasons why certain things happen the way they do won't be nearly as strong, and I'll have to cut two characters that will be very important in my planned sequels.

I have also heard the, "can you split it into two books?" suggestion a number of times and the answer to this is no. There is no definitive halfway point anywhere in this manuscript where doing so would make any sense.

My question(s) is this. Supposing I delete parts of the core story and get my word count to below 90,000 and if an agent requests my full manuscript, would it be okay to offer him or her both versions at that point, below 90,000 and 98,000? Pointing out where the differences begin and why I have two versions?

Or should I take my chances pitching with this 98,000 version?

I may be able to eliminate an additional 1,000 words by pruning very hard through the book, but I can't see any way I will get it below the 90,000 mark without eliminating scenes I consider crucial to the core story.

I've been stuck on this issue for a very long time. I appreciate any of your opinions!

Esmae Tyler · Aug 19, 2017

If it's 98,000 words, it's 98,000 words.

150k is not actually a doorstop, but it's getting there, so having shaved so many bits off already I can believe you've dumped everything that really could go.

From what I've read, you can query with any word count, but the higher the number the more you have to be able to demonstrate right out of the gate that you do need every one of them. Your query letter needs to be on point. So do the sample pages. If Prospective Agent thinks your concept is good but is on the fence because of the total, and they open up Chapter 1, they should be able to tell by the end of the first page that you're using your words well. That, I understand, is what they want: amazing stories. You do need words to tell amazing stories.

For reference's sake, consider this: http://jetreidliterary.blogspot.com/2017/05/word-count-cause-why-drop-topic-after.html

Byeka · Aug 19, 2017

That is a great and really encouraging answer, thank you so much for that. It's really nice to hear someone telling me I can pitch with the word count as it is for a change, even if I do need to prove it's what it is because of what it is

.

I may just continue pushing on with my 98,000 once I get my query letter to where I want it. But I'm curious for more opinions if anyone else here weighs in too.

Old Hack · Aug 20, 2017

110k is too long for most YA books.

I bet I could cut your book to 80k without losing any of the plot. (I am an editor, just so you know.)

For example, I can cut your original post very heavily and not lose any of your meaning.

Byeka said:
When I completed my manuscript I had a massive word count of around 150,000. I spent about two years to get it down to 98,000 words, and I'm still being told it's too long.

I've been advised to get it below 90,000. I can do it, but I won't be happy with what I have to cut in order to make it happen.

I have also heard the, "can you split it into two books?" suggestion a number of times [but] there is no definitive halfway point anywhere in this manuscript.

Supposing I get my word count to below 90,000. If an agent requests my full manuscript, would it be okay to offer him or her both versions?

Or should I take my chances pitching with this 98,000 version?

It was originally 410 words, according to my word processing software, and my new version is 129 words. That's a reduction to about 31% of the original, which would be about the same as cutting your novel from 150k to 46.5k.

I know it's hard to cut your precious ms back so stringently. But if your book is as wordy as your post is, then yes, you can cut it further and it will only benefit from you doing so.

Of course, it could be that your book is great as it is, and that you shouldn't cut it. Why not spend some time getting up to 50 posts and then put some of your work up for critique in our SYW rooms? If everyone feels that you could cut more stringently, or feels it's great as it is, you'll have your answer.

Byeka · Aug 21, 2017

Thanks for your reply, Old Hack. I definitely intend to go for a query critique here. I'm completely redone mine from what I used to use as it didn't get me any results. Of course, the longer word count I was pitching with back then didn't help either.

Will an agent even consider requesting pages with a 98,000 word count, or will that be an automatic rejection based on count alone? From what I'm hearing, I don't believe it would be outright rejected because of a 98,000 count. Only, looked at with a fine eye.

I'd be legitimately curious to see if you could bring it down to 80,000 without losing any of the plot. It may have been wordy at first, but that's why I spent 2 years editing it and bringing it down from the originally 150,000 starting point

. I don't FEEL like it's wordy now... but I'm not a professional editor either.

Old Hack · Aug 21, 2017

Byeka, all your posts here are very wordy and that's an indicator that your book would be, too.

Agents will request pages from an over-long book if the query is great. But even if they like the book they're then going to have trouble selling it, because publishers have good reasons for their word-count requirements: long books are far more costly to produce, print and ship, bookshops prefer thinner books because they can fit more of them onto their shelves, and the sales prices are usually the same for a longer book and a shorter one, leaving narrower margins for all concerned. So editors are likely to focus on cutting your long book into a shorter one to improve its saleability and profitability (and most books benefit from cutting anyway).

So you'll probably end up with a shorter book even if you battle to find an agent who will take it on in its longer form. Why not cut it now, and make things easier for yourself? Your book will probably benefit.

Byeka · Aug 23, 2017

Old Hack, I'm going to go through my book again and see if I can find any sections to make less wordy without losing any meaning. I haven't focused specifically on this approach yet so it's definitely worth giving a shot. Thank you for your suggestion!

Byeka · Aug 25, 2017

Just an update - I've been taking another pass at editing my book, exclusively following your advice and I've already brought my word count down to 96,000 and I'm only on the third chapter. I have never examined my book from this perspective before. Thank you for giving me the best advice I had never (yet) received. I feel like I should quite easily be able to get this down past 90,000 by the time I finish, possibly even lower.

WeaselFire · Aug 26, 2017

My general path is to write the book, then lop the first 30,000 words off because they never seem to be needed.

It's a lot easier to get concise and cut words than to try and stretch a plot that's already too thin to carry a full book.

Jeff

Byeka · Sep 6, 2017

Weasel, that's awfully ambitious of you! Of course, I lopped off way more than that. Not necessarily because I wanted to though - lol!

There are certainly some scenes from y original drafts I dearly miss and personally feel would improve the book... buuuuut I really want to get an agent and for it to sell... sooooo...

I just finished going through my book again today, and with Old Hack's advice brought it down to 91,214 words, from the 99,000 I had started this thread with. Pretty pleased with that. The goal was to drop it below 90k, but hey, I'm not complaining. I definitely feel an agent won't dismiss this based on word count alone now.

amillimiles · Sep 6, 2017

I find it interesting that the doorstop word count is ~100k for YA when many YA novels exceed that. Marie Lu's The Young Elites: 119k. Leigh Bardugo's Six of Crows: 148k; Crooked Kingdom: 173k. Sarah J. Maas' Throne of Glass: 129k.

Some interesting websites discuss YA novels' word counts -- EM Castellan and Brett Michael Orr.

Not that I'm an editor, agent, or published author. Just chiming in.

AielloJ1 · Sep 6, 2017

My understanding is for first time novels, going over 100K is typically a risk, but anything under should be fine. Fantasies in general are typically longer than others, so I think there's a little bit of leeway in there. Plus, I think the cutoff minimal limit is around 80,000k, so I'd think anything in the next 20,000 you should be okay.

Putputt · Sep 6, 2017

amillimiles said:
I find it interesting that the doorstop word count is ~100k for YA when many YA novels exceed that. Marie Lu's The Young Elites: 119k. Leigh Bardugo's Six of Crows: 148k; Crooked Kingdom: 173k. Sarah J. Maas' Throne of Glass: 129k.

Some interesting websites discuss YA novels' word counts -- EM Castellan and Brett Michael Orr.

Not that I'm an editor, agent, or published author. Just chiming in.

After the success of her LEGEND series, Marie Lu can probably write anything she want and still have publishers clamoring for it.

Same with Bardugo.

For the rest of us who have yet to prove ourselves in the publishing world, the rules are less likely to be bent.

amillimiles · Sep 7, 2017

Putputt said:
After the success of her LEGEND series, Marie Lu can probably write anything she want and still have publishers clamoring for it. Same with Bardugo.

For the rest of us who have yet to prove ourselves in the publishing world, the rules are less likely to be bent.

Well said! However, it's as Old Hack says above. You have to prove to the agent (with your first ten pages) that every single word is truly necessary. And that goes hand-in-hand with proving that you're worth a shot and worth their time and offer.

Rules are rules, but they can be broken -- by those who have the "power." *new story tagline* *new character motto* *starts writing shiny new novel based on this*

mafiaking1936 · Sep 9, 2017

Byeka said:
I just finished going through my book again today, and with Old Hack's advice brought it down to 91,214 words, from the 99,000 I had started this thread with. Pretty pleased with that. The goal was to drop it below 90k, but hey, I'm not complaining. I definitely feel an agent won't dismiss this based on word count alone now.

Wow, and from 150K at the beginning. Maybe you should become an editor! I only wish I had the skill pare my bloated MS down like that.

Fruitbat · Sep 9, 2017

That's great that you cut out so much word clutter on your own after it was pointed out to you. But, especially if you are a newer writer, I really wouldn't submit a novel when the only eyes on it had been my own. SYW and/or beta readers are such a great help.

Word Count Question

Byeka

Esmae Tyler

This & That

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Old Hack

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Byeka

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Byeka

Byeka

WeaselFire

Benefactor Member

Byeka

amillimiles

AielloJ1

Putputt

permanently suctioned to Buz's leg

amillimiles

mafiaking1936

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Fruitbat

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