Scenes before chapters

If it works for you, go for it. There is no one way to write a novel. Some sit down and write from start to finish. Some write scenes out of order, then put them together. Some write backwards from a climax. Give your approach a try. Worse case scenario: you try something else, but you still have more words written and a better sense of the story you want to tell than if you hadn't tried at all.

Sure. I like to do an outline for what happens then group those into scenes, and the scenes into chapters.

I mentally process writing on a scene by scene basis, with very little thought about chapters. Personally, I don't write any kind of plot/outline. I just write it and sort the issues out as I go along. (This is personal preference, btw, each writer should do hat works for them. Plot in advance, don't plot in advance, complex plot in advance, simple outline in advance... whatever suits you best.) This probably explains why I have difficulty breaking the story down into chapters (I do this at the end), i.e. deciding which scenes belong together in a chapter and which don't. But my point is that it doesn't really matter whether you break down your initial outline into chapters or scenes as long as what you're doing is working for you.

What you need to be careful of making sure you don't get so involved in plotting that you never start writing. Have you tried writing your first chapter to see how it goes? Don't be afraid of not getting it right first time - that's what editing is for. You can edit and rewrite it as much as you need to. If you start to write then feel you don't have enough of a detailed plan, you can go back to your plan, add in what's needed then go back to your writing. Ultimately, you won't know if your plan is adequate or not until you start writing.

Have you read or considered the 33 responses you received to the thread you opened in October 2016 and captioned Outlining frustrates me?

Heh

majordan92 said:

instead of writing the chapters themselves I should create scenes first, then group them together into chapters later. It seems to make sense to me, but I wanted some input on this process before I move along.

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I know lots of writers who do that. Bottom line, it doesn't matter how you write the novel; all that matters is the quality of the end product.

majordan92 said:

I was thinking about my situation, and decided that instead of writing the chapters themselves I should create scenes first, then group them together into chapters later. It seems to make sense to me, but I wanted some input on this process before I move along.

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Exactly how I do it. Chapter divisions can be pretty arbitrary, and even artificial. Scenes, however, are integral to any fiction narrative.c

caw

Do it how it works for you. I only write in scenes. I only create chapters in the end, when my publisher insists the ebook formatting requires it.

I have a screenwriting backgound, so my scenes are the chapters. I have read a few books recently that had about 100 chapters.

Depends a lot on granularity - I start coarse and work into finer grit.

At the beginning I only know the beginning and the ending. Then I add some checkpoints along the way. Then I add checkpoints between the check points that become chapters. I then follow the same process for defining scenes within each chapter.

Once I have the layout complete I start writing. Often during the first draft ideas change and move around, which is allowed. I have a framework, but remain flexible.

Everyone has their own way though. Use what works for you.

I never have chapters longer than scenes. Indeed, the scenes are frequently enough divided into chapters.

Scenes are a naturally emergent property of story. Chapters are a convenience for readers (& writers). It's possible to have a story (even a massive epic) without chapters. If you have no scenes, you have no story.

In your writing process it's perfectly ok to organize your ideas and word-making at either level. But only one of them is really important.

JCornelius said:

I never have chapters longer than scenes. Indeed, the scenes are frequently enough divided into chapters.

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I imagine that my chapters are your scenes... or something like that.

For me, chapters are short stories within the larger story, and scenes are even shorter stores in the short stories.

Yes, for many people the building block gradation is: sentence>paragraph>scene>chapter, for me it's frequently sentence>paragraph>chapter>scene. I try to keep my chapters short, so if the scene takes 3-4K, that's 3-4 chapters. I also chop up my paragraphs into as tiny subdivisions of meaning as possible.

If my paragraphs are big and my chapters--long--entropy creeps in. I start muddying up the text, only a small part becomes "instantly visible"--while the rest is piled up in dark nooks and corners where everything gets tangled up. Sentences start to suck, structure starts to wobble, but all this stays hidden at first read, simply makes the reading subtly suckier.

When paragraphs and chapters are short, there's plenty of open space and "nowhere to hide"--I am forced to make every sentence count. This is a rather new development by me, but now I swear by it Some writers perform best when surfing the endless paragraph seas and the bottomless chapter oceans, but I perform best in the shallows.

I can't begin to count how many times I changed my opening. Having more than one plot going, the same goes for arranging the sequence of events.

Don't be afraid to change or even take out scenes. Just save them where you can find them later, just in case.

It's like sculpting. The main thing is to have your character arc in mind. How do your chapters build on that.

Choosing another main character for your next book sounds good. Now you can bring a different POV to your story., perhaps with a twist.

I also spend a lot of time building a back story for each character. That esp helsp if you intend to do a sequel.

Good luck.

C.J. Thibeaux

I've done this for some of what I've written. I'll get a visual image or a particular mood in my head even without having any particular story to put them in. Other times I'll think of a particular set of characters and have something for them to do without having a story to put them in. I don't keep a formal writing journal, but I do try to write things down when I think of them just in case I ever come up with a way to use them.

I believe this is how most people write. They partition their work into chapters in subsequent drafts. For your issue on plotting. You may check out: The snowflake method of plotting. It helped me plenty.

majordan92 said:

I'm an amateur writer who is trying to transition from short stories to novels, although I have trouble trying to get started. My main issue is learning how to plot. I've been reading novels to get a feel on how they are structured while also spending time making a chapter-by-chapter outline, but it is still not enough for me.

I was thinking about my situation, and decided that instead of writing the chapters themselves I should create scenes first, then group them together into chapters later. It seems to make sense to me, but I wanted some input on this process before I move along.

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The way you outline doesn't matter much, but I think it doesn't work for you, because consciously or subconsciously, you realize you don't have enough material to make it into a novel-length work.
That is something short story writers transitioning to novels often have trouble with. Use whatever method floats your boat, just make sure you have enough description, enough action, enough dialog and enough scenes to make it work as a novel.

I, and many others I presume, don't write that way. I don't worry about chapters at all. They happen- determined by flow and content as the story unfolds.

posted by EnoiseI believe this is how most people write. They partition their work into chapters in subsequent drafts....

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I'm fairly conscious of chapter structure in my recent novels, though there's a lot of flux as I write them. Sometimes a scene won't cooperate, or there's a more natural end or pause I don't realize until later. In these last two books, the story is always moving, so it's a bit like a train. Every chapter is a stop.