Thoughts on online writing courses?

I'm going to say outright, I don't buy the whole "read and write and eventually you'll get it." Just like I don't buy the "go to the foreign country and eventually you'll be able to speak with them." To be sure, you need those things to gain full "fluency," but if that's how you start out, it's going to take you a long damn time to figure out the "grammatical" structure that makes everything work. And if that's not how you learn, then that's just not how you learn. It's certainly not how I learn--I didn't "get" the three-act structure by reading a thousand books (and I probably hit that mark back in middle school). I "got" it because I read several blog posts and books about it that put it in logical, almost mathematical terms in a way that made implicit, intuitive sense to me.

Now, I also don't see the point to spending money learning to write, ever, just in general. And I've never done an online class. I started one on Coursera and the first week was something about finding ideas, or your writing voice, or something else I don't need help with. I didn't bother to finish the week, much less the course. However. Based on your genre, I can recommend a very good free resource that I used to listen to on my commute to college: The Odyssey SF/F Writing Workshop podcast. It's the closest thing to a course I've ever done, and it's phenomenally useful.

I have to disagree with JetFueledCar. Yes, there are certain popular structures to follow when it comes to 'building' your book, but nobody is obligated to follow that. If you want to follow the tree-act structure and it works for you, great, but also great if you don't. There are just as many examples of great books who didn't follow the 'normal guidelines' then there are books that did.

On the other hand, I do believe that actual writing courses could be helpful, especially if you don't have an English degree or if English isn't your native language.

I would say that there's value in a writing course, especially if you don't have much experience. However, what's much more valuable if you can get it is a regular writing GROUP. For people who are just learning to write fiction, there's going to be a lot of basics that even something like an online writing course can provide a valuable education on. If you're just learning about characterization, dialog, pacing, structure, and all that good stuff, having it all condensed, organized and presented in a course can be useful. If you're feeling pretty confident about having a handle on the fundamentals, then your mileage will definitely vary about the value of such courses.

On the other hand, a writer's group is really about a group of like-minded writers meeting on a regular basis, swapping work, and critiquing it so as to improve the story. It's like having free editors that show you how to improve your book once a month, or once a week, or whatever schedule you have. But that's only if you get into a really productive group, and there's no politics or some of the other unpleasantness that can sometimes happen with the wrong mix of people.

I notice in your user info you say you're in Ontario. If you're in the GTA, have you looked into Bryan Henry and his Quick Brown Fox website? He offers some classes for writing throughout the year. I took his course a couple of years ago, but I wasn't a great fit for that particular group, since I write science fiction and fantasy and most of the people there were going for either historical or literary. But I did meet a couple of people who were also doing stuff in my genre, and once the class was over, we just kept going as our own regular writer's group. If you can swing it, meeting with actual writers and getting that face-to-face interaction is always preferable to an online course, in my opinion.

Have you looked at the archives at Write About Dragons? Lectures by Brandon Sanderson about writing - free.

As to the question, whether a writing course (online or otherwise) is worthwhile depends on both you and the course. You, insofar as where you are in your writing development and what you need (which may not be the same as what you think you need) to progress, and the course insofar as how it "clicks" with your learning style. I've taken a few; they were deeply discounted, so I wouldn't call them wastes of money, but they didn't particularly stand out in terms of what I learned. But if you're the kind who learns better in a classroom setting than from writing books or other sources, give it a shot.

Just remember, as a fantasy/paranormal author, to keep a container of salt in your proverbial backpack; some courses look down on sf/f. While the basics of good mechanics and storytelling generally translate across genres, beware the teacher who insists that their preferred type is the only "real" writing, the rest being pulp junk written by hacks.

I also have to disagree with #2. If you read, religiously, you will absolute become a better writer. If you go to a foreign country and live there for any appreciable time, you will learn the language to a functional degree. Both of these assume a level of engagement which is necessary for your art. Art thrives on the human, and being human is experiencing. Reading, writing, living, speaking with people who have a different tongue than you but a common heart.

That said, there are enormous amounts of free resources online as has been stated. On Youtube, you can find lectures and talks and Q&A's by just about any author and these are invaluable to anyone interested in improving their craft. Hours and hours of these are like taking a course with these writers, many of whom are teachers. Give it a search.

Reading a lot is definitely going to help you develop and improve as a writer.

Critiquing other writers' works is hugely helpful. It's the single most helpful thing I know of. Go to Share Your Work and give as many critiques as you can, and then give a load more. It's amazing how useful this one thing is.

Taking courses can also be very helpful, so long as they're good courses. There is one I often recommend: I know the two people who run it, I know several people who have taken it, and I have heard consistently positive comments about it. It's the Self Editing course taught by Debi Alper and Emma Darwin, which I think is run by The Writers' Workshop. They have a long list of people who have taken their course and gone on to be published.

I paid for a writing course through Gotham. It was an undeniable waste of money - I should actually post that in the "what's been your biggest waste of money as a writer" thread. It was, like, $400, and I honestly don't think I got a single thing out of it. Even the writers' group aspect of it (we had a message board where we did live discussions) was a total dud and, if anything, actually set me back as a writer because someone attacked an idea I'd used for an assignment and tried to diagnose me with a mental disorder as a result of this concept (which added a twist to the assignment and gave a surprise ending), and there was no moderating or mentoring involved to set it right. I spent at least a year after that writing afraid, because I worried about people thinking something was wrong with me if I wrote anything but the most vanilla, socially-acceptable ideas.

Old Hack said:

Critiquing other writers' works is hugely helpful. It's the single most helpful thing I know of. Go to Share Your Work and give as many critiques as you can, and then give a load more. It's amazing how useful this one thing is.

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This.

One of our AW members, Barbara Rogan (a multi-published author, as well as a former editor and former agent), offers some online courses. I haven't personally taken one, but I know a few people who have, and they had nothing but good things to say about the courses. I think you can find her at Barbararogan.com.

Margie Lawson (margielawson.com) also offers courses on various writing subjects. I took a workshop with her at a conference, and in that situation at least, I can truthfully say she talked about aspects of writing not often covered in more basic classes. I found it interesting and enlightening. Also, I believe you can purchase just the lecture packets for her courses at a fairly minimal fee.

Brandon Sanderson, though not my favorite writer by any stretch, has a lot of technical competence and is a very good teacher. He puts his lectures for free on Youtube.

I personally struggle to learn through lecture formatting of any kind. This has periodically reflected in my low-to-mediocre grades at school (incl university). Occasionally I read articles specific to writing, but very rarely. I just can't learn that way.

To compensate, I do a lot of critiquing; I constantly have something I'm beta-reading (more often, two or three or four somethings...) and I read when I can. Currently I'm reading three books that I flip between.

But if you're able to sit and process talks/lectures/articles, there's a lot of amazing resources out there that you might like.

Brightdreamer said:

Have you looked at the archives at Write About Dragons? Lectures by Brandon Sanderson about writing - free.

As to the question, whether a writing course (online or otherwise) is worthwhile depends on both you and the course. You, insofar as where you are in your writing development and what you need (which may not be the same as what you think you need) to progress, and the course insofar as how it "clicks" with your learning style. I've taken a few; they were deeply discounted, so I wouldn't call them wastes of money, but they didn't particularly stand out in terms of what I learned. But if you're the kind who learns better in a classroom setting than from writing books or other sources, give it a shot.

Just remember, as a fantasy/paranormal author, to keep a container of salt in your proverbial backpack; some courses look down on sf/f. While the basics of good mechanics and storytelling generally translate across genres, beware the teacher who insists that their preferred type is the only "real" writing, the rest being pulp junk written by hacks.

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Brightdreamer got in ahead of me.

Sanderson's course has one over-riding benefit: it's free.

Also he writes fantasy, so there likely may well be some overlap with your interests. Check out Youtube, too, for what other writers have to impart as advice.

Personally, I think reading a few books on the craft may be a better use of your resources, than an expensive course - ymmv.

Edited to add - the Share Your Work Forum on this site is one of the best aids I have found to help me improve my own writing.

JetFueledCar said:

I'm going to say outright, I don't buy the whole "read and write and eventually you'll get it." Just like I don't buy the "go to the foreign country and eventually you'll be able to speak with them." To be sure, you need those things to gain full "fluency," but if that's how you start out, it's going to take you a long damn time to figure out the "grammatical" structure that makes everything work. And if that's not how you learn, then that's just not how you learn. It's certainly not how I learn--I didn't "get" the three-act structure by reading a thousand books (and I probably hit that mark back in middle school). I "got" it because I read several blog posts and books about it that put it in logical, almost mathematical terms in a way that made implicit, intuitive sense to me.

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I'm quoting this again because people who are "disagreeing" with me are reading the part where I advocate for reading books about writing, or learning the three-act structure (which I think even authors who don't use it typically understand), and are skipping past the rest.

Yes, you need to read. I said that originally, here and on other threads. IMO, you need to take in all forms of fiction--graphic novels, audio shows, TV, movies--and probably most forms of nonfiction, in order to see the principles in action. But I'm going to say this very clearly: There is absolutely no shame in formally studying those principles. Frankly, no one on this thread thinks there is, or you wouldn't be turning around and recommending resources to the OP.

My original statement was made for one reason, and one reason only: The OP dismissed the very resources they were asking for. Not because they'd ever tried them, not because they knew they didn't work for them, but because it wasn't as "practical" as reading and writing and nothing else. That is what I objected to, and most people have come in and said that they also see the use in some kind of formal study of the principles of the craft of writing.

Katallina, I agree with Old Hack entirely regarding critiquing other people's work. I also stand by what I said in that formal study of the principles of writing will better enable you to critically read and write and examine both your own work and others'.

On a separate tangent, my antivirus throws up about twenty warnings (in separate windows for maximum annoyance) every time I try to go to Brandon Sanderson's lectures. Since I doubt everyone else somehow missed it being a dangerous website, does anyone have an idea how to explain that to the hyperactive guard puppy program?

ETA: Apologies for the emotion above. I spent a while feeling like a defective writer because of this idea, widely promoted even on this site, that the only way to learn is to read and write and read and write. That didn't work for me. Ever.

The point I want to make is, there is no shame in wanting, accepting, or needing formal education in a subject in order to understand it, regardless of the subject. I would tell the same to a student who came back from an immersive language study only able to name a few sporadic nouns and make a purchase, or someone with autism who needed someone to explain human expression.

Incidentally, I have been all three.

Everyone learns they way they learn; so what works for one person might not work for another.

The thing about "read and write to learn how to write" in its various forms is that it's a short hand phrase for a much deeper concept; that is read a lot and learn how to read.

I'd be kinda all if someone told me that that was the "only" way to learn to write—for a bunch of reasons, some of them personal (I'm dyslexic; learning to read and write for me was likely not what it was like for many other people) and because I've spent a very long time teaching college students how to write. I'm not teaching them to write fiction (I don't write fiction) but the techniques are awfully similar.

Write a lot and learn how to write in terms of controlling your voice, your style, and learning how to use plot and structure etc. . . . things you've leaned about by reading about them, as well as by seeing how writers use them.

I'd be cautious about any writing class on or offline, at any school or workshop; who's the teacher? Does the teacher write? Have you read their writing? Is it readily available at book stores and libraries? And while there are lots of great writers, and lots of great teachers—it's less common to find people who are both; can the teachers teach effectively?

And yes, having an experienced writer and reader respond to writing is hugely helpful; that's a heck of a lot of what a good writing teacher does; another thing a good writing teacher does is to model or show you how the process works for them, how it might work for you, and various kinds of tools you might want to consider, try, etc.

I too, am toying with the idea of an online writing course.

The one I'm looking at stands out to me because it is run by a group of successful (multi published/award winning) writers across various genres. Each student is 'mentored' and critiqued by the writer most suitable to your genre - and I think its about 40 writing exercises per 'module'.

I might be missing something - but I do think the personal feedback can be critical.

I love the idea of offering critique on AW and once I built the courage, I'll do exactly that!

Dan Simmons attended a writing course by Harlan Ellison, while Tobias Wolff was mentored by Carver and Gardner. I think if this was happening online, the results would still have been spectacular.

Katallina said:

Anyone have any thoughts on online writing courses?

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I don't do them. Not even the free ones. But it has nothing to do with the courses and everything to do with me. I learned to write long before there was an online to learn from.

I do follow good writers and get tips, especially from forums like Absolute Write. That's where the knowledge is. I started chatting with Orson Scott Card when he was a fledgling game programmer in the 1980's, about both programming and writing. That was on CompuServe (might have been Dow Jones or MCI, hard to remember, long before Al Gore invented the internet...) and there were plenty of other current major authors around back then. Now it's harder to hit the top 20 best selling authors, but I've had dinner with Robert B. Parker, Alex Haley and others and learned a ton from those simple chats. Lunch with Dave Barry was a hoot, and hanging out with publishers and agents at writer's conferences has taught me more about the writing game than any formal education could.

I can't knock online courses, I've taught some in computer basics (as well as the same in university classrooms) and they have worked for those willing to put in the effort to learn. But many who do coursework of any kind aren't really there to learn, just to get a check mark in someone's ledger. In-person and online information is always only as good as who receives it and how they interpret it.

Start with a free course to see how they work for you. Find a local writer's group or presentation and attend. Even if it's not your genre, you'll likely come away with something useful. Knowing a dangling participle or a run-on sentence is important, knowing when to use one in your writing, despite what your High School English teacher taught you, is critical.

Jeff

Harlequin said:

Brandon Sanderson, though not my favorite writer by any stretch, has a lot of technical competence and is a very good teacher. He puts his lectures for free on Youtube.

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Thank you for posting this. I've never read Sanderson, but I checked out his first lecture on YouTube and agree that he's a very good teacher.

There are also a number of good writing workshops; I'm most familiar with Viable Paradise (for SF and F) and Clarion, but there are a number of reputable workshops for other gneres, too.

It depends on the writing course. I'd recommend checking out Brandon Sanders lectures on writing. They were recorded by a former student of his, and posted with permission. They're free, and on youtube. I'll link you. HERE is the channel. I'd recommend seeking out books he suggests such as On Writing by Stephen King. If I recall, there are a few channels full of his stuff. You'll learn a lot! I'm trying to set myself up to follow his 1,000 words a week goal this fall.

EDIT: Someone else suggested his videos. Sweet!

Sometimes spending hundreds of dollars on a course is not needed. You can go to the library and pick up some books, we know there are tons of resources online, and you can always teach yourself. Break down bits of pieces of a novel you love and a novel you hate. Go to the best place and go to the worst place for each of them and think about what made them that way. Was it the prose? The characters? Why? Once you ask yourself these questions and maybe more, you have broken down a scene and seen why it's great/bad. I do this so I can learn from other's mistakes and then work on my own story to see mine. Helps if you have beta readers to show you the bad parts, but alas I'm not at that stage yet.

Anyway back to the point I'm making. You don't REALLY need to do an online writing class. With grammar and editing, for sure do a class on that, you need to learn grammar. A class can teach you structure and such like it, but at the end of the day structure isn't storytelling and that's what we're writing You can shuck out millions of dollars on writing classes but if you don't actually write and find the way you like to write, then you're not really learning anything. Classes would be good for a beginner but not for an advanced writer who knows how they like to work and what's works for THEM.

It really depends on the person, however. Someone could probably pick up the "basics" of writing with someone guiding them and another person by doing it all by themselves. Pick what you want to do and if it doesn't work, try something else. That's the great thing about writing. There's always another way.

I've taken two classes by Gotham. I kind of regret spending that much money, but I did find the feedback on my current project from my instructor helpful.

I find I don't learn much from writing books on structure. I wound up feeling stupid for not being able to understand.

Writing books is an art, not a science. As a consequence authoring instruction is the same as getting instruction in drawing or painting; you will get as many different ways to write books as there are tutors out there. Pick one that meets your goals, shares the same genre or style, and works about the same way you do. Get as many references as you can. Picking tutors at random or from snazzy ads is the best way to throw money out the window. This is your business you are investing into, not theirs. Remember they make money out of you whether or not you become a successful writer afterwards.

-cb