What's the general consensus?

nadiam · Aug 8, 2017

I don't have any immediate plans for this scenario, but given rules/ laws and personal preferences, how do people feel about this?

Explicit content involving main characters who are of age in an erotic fiction novel.

Also including some form of sexual contact of two people who are BOTH under the age of 18/16 (whatever the various countries legal ages are) in an exploratory manner, in a prologue?
I think these awkward, and intense real moments can create such real feeling, emotion and patterns of behaviour that can be exploited by an author.
I guess they could be alluded to throughout the book in order to not have a scene that might compromise the saleability of a book, but sometimes they're kind of intense and important.

What do people think?

ps. I'm not talking about children, I mean teenagers who naturally explore their sexuality, however that actually manifests.

leifwright · Aug 8, 2017

It can be done (I did it in my first novel, Minister of Justice), but you have to be VERY careful, because despite laws, people are sensitive to such issues.

Noizchild · Aug 9, 2017

You also have to factor in age of consent.

nadiam · Aug 9, 2017

leifwright said:
It can be done (I did it in my first novel, Minister of Justice), but you have to be VERY careful, because despite laws, people are sensitive to such issues.

Noizchild said:
You also have to factor in age of consent.

I'm hearing on both points you DO have to be very careful, and factor in the age of consent.... but I'm thinking about what's real and how that plays out, and how my own experiences as an adolescent (not necessarily x rated) had a massive impact on my own preferences.

Whatever might happen (and however far it goes) between partners who may be younger, can then set up to explain a certain kink or preference. Or a whole -one that got away- storyline....

It's been done I know, and well sometimes, appallingly others. I guess I was wondering how people felt about it.

Maryn · Aug 10, 2017

I suspect that the issue is that publishers and distributors--including Amazon--apply different rules about underage characters and sex to erotica than to other genres and subgenres.

Teenage sex is, of course, real, but writing such scenes in a book whose overall purpose, many contend, is to sexually arouse the reader is pretty shaky ground. You might find publishers of erotic fiction shy away from it, unwilling to take a chance on legal action or Amazon's dreaded "adult" tag (which means the book doesn't come up when people browse, instead findable only with title and author's name, IIRC), or worse, big retailers like Amazon deleting it after a complaint.

For that reason, even self-publishing isn't any safer.

It's not a risk I'd take, but each writer decides for themselves.

veinglory · Aug 10, 2017

If the book is genre-erotica, and any of the people involved are minors, it is arguably illegal under US obscenity laws so most publishers and retailers (including Amazon) will not carry it.

nadiam · Aug 10, 2017

Thanks for the thoughtful responses.
I don't think I'd take my characters all the way in any case.
And you're right, it's much easier to just not go there than risk it.
If I can't be creative enough to work in the teenage angst and obsession that leads to certain character traits, I probrably need to rethink how those things came to be, and if they need explaining at all.

Noizchild · Aug 10, 2017

Maryn said:
I suspect that the issue is that publishers and distributors--including Amazon--apply different rules about underage characters and sex to erotica than to other genres and subgenres.

Teenage sex is, of course, real, but writing such scenes in a book whose overall purpose, many contend, is to sexually arouse the reader is pretty shaky ground. You might find publishers of erotic fiction shy away from it, unwilling to take a chance on legal action or Amazon's dreaded "adult" tag (which means the book doesn't come up when people browse, instead findable only with title and author's name, IIRC), or worse, big retailers like Amazon deleting it after a complaint.

For that reason, even self-publishing isn't any safer.

It's not a risk I'd take, but each writer decides for themselves.

Does Amazon comply with age of consent around the world or is it just by American's standards?

nadiam · Aug 10, 2017

Noizchild said:
Does Amazon comply with age of consent around the world or is it just by American's standards?

Good question!

Maryn · Aug 11, 2017

Someone will correct me if I'm mistaken, but since the age of consent in the US varies by state (and any "Romeo and Juliet" laws a state might have, making it okay if the kids are close in age), I'm pretty sure Amazon goes with the age of 18.

Noizchild · Aug 11, 2017

Maryn said:
Someone will correct me if I'm mistaken, but since the age of consent in the US varies by state (and any "Romeo and Juliet" laws a state might have, making it okay if the kids are close in age), I'm pretty sure Amazon goes with the age of 18.

But is that for all Amazons around the world?

nadiam · Aug 12, 2017

Noizchild said:
But is that for all Amazons around the world?

Are they owned separately?

Noizchild · Aug 15, 2017

nadiam said:
Are they owned separately?

Some of them are region-locked.

veinglory · Aug 16, 2017

Amazon is mainly concerned with following the law where the company is based (US), but they do lock out certain countries for liability reasons (e.g. Singapore).

Noizchild · Aug 16, 2017

veinglory said:
Amazon is mainly concerned with following the law where the company is based (US), but they do lock out certain countries for liability reasons (e.g. Singapore).

Yeah.

James Ryan · Aug 16, 2017

veinglory said:
Amazon is mainly concerned with following the law where the company is based (US), but they do lock out certain countries for liability reasons (e.g. Singapore)

I would imagine first and foremost they are a business. So, you have to believe they are going to use high standards to make sure that they are safe from legal liability.

nadiam · Aug 16, 2017

I guess the easiest thing to do is have them "just say no" until they reach that all important birthday when they can go for it like rabbits....
Teenagers though, how do you get them to do ANYTHING you tell them, let alone a not exgage in a really fun, exciting, free (unless you count emotionally) thing until they're of age, even if they only exist in your head?!?

veinglory · Aug 17, 2017

You may not want a serious answer, but I and many of my friends were virgins by choice until well after our teenage years, and it was not for religious reasons. Teenagers are a diverse group.

nadiam · Aug 17, 2017

veinglory said:
You may not want a serious answer, but I and many of my friends were virgins by choice until well after our teenage years, and it was not for religious reasons. Teenagers are a diverse group.

Oh I will put my own hand up for that club.
That's not to say I didn't give my parents kittens by doing other stuff I shouldn't have.
Or drive them insane with angst and attitude.
And also not to say I didn't WANT to have sex then.
What happened in real life to me (and to lots of other people) didn't necessarily fit with the vague ideas I had for a plot. I have no particular need to run with those ideas though, was feeling the waters.

Noizchild · Aug 17, 2017

veinglory said:
You may not want a serious answer, but I and many of my friends were virgins by choice until well after our teenage years, and it was not for religious reasons. Teenagers are a diverse group.

There is that too. Some countries you can't have sex until you get married.

nadiam · Aug 17, 2017

Noizchild said:
There is that too. Some countries you can't have sex until you get married.

Yes that's the law, but that's also kind of the point I guess, again not that I NEED to write about it, but now it's more for the sake of discussion.
It's not legal to have sex until a certain age in most countries, it's not legal to have sex before marriage in some countries, it's not legal to have sex outside of marriage in some countries, it's not legal to have homosexual sex in some countries. But people do. And people write about it.

Laws mean that publishing stories about this real thing in the context of an erotic piece of fiction is also illegal.
I understand. I think that in a sane world there could be room for the beginnings of a sexual relationship written into an erotic novel where the Mc's are underage. We don't live in a very sane world though, so laws are restrictive and I imagine often written for the worst possible scenario.

veinglory · Aug 18, 2017

You can write about it. Just not for publication within the specific genre of erotica if the involved parties are children, animals or blood relatives. So, make it genre literary and fire at will.

nadiam · Aug 18, 2017

veinglory said:
You can write about it. Just not for publication within the specific genre of erotica if the involved parties are children, animals or blood relatives. So, make it genre literary and fire at will.

Hang on a sec.... I can write a full on sex scene involving children, animals and or blood relatives, submit it for publication or self publish, and all will be fine (as far as legalities are concerned) as long as I haven't classified the whole piece as erotic fiction? WTF?!?

Clearly I didn't realize the specifics of this law, and erotic fiction writers/ readers are all disgusting perverts who can't be trusted to distinguish between fiction and reality, unlike the rest of the literate world!

Noizchild · Aug 18, 2017

nadiam said:
Yes that's the law, but that's also kind of the point I guess, again not that I NEED to write about it, but now it's more for the sake of discussion.
It's not legal to have sex until a certain age in most countries, it's not legal to have sex before marriage in some countries, it's not legal to have sex outside of marriage in some countries, it's not legal to have homosexual sex in some countries. But people do. And people write about it.

Laws mean that publishing stories about this real thing in the context of an erotic piece of fiction is also illegal.
I understand. I think that in a sane world there could be room for the beginnings of a sexual relationship written into an erotic novel where the Mc's are underage. We don't live in a very sane world though, so laws are restrictive and I imagine often written for the worst possible scenario.

In some countries, it's only for lesbians to be together, but not gay men.

What's the general consensus?

nadiam

leifwright

Mired in the miry mire.

Noizchild

nadiam

Maryn

Baaa!

veinglory

volitare nequeo

nadiam

Noizchild

nadiam

Maryn

Baaa!

Noizchild

nadiam

Noizchild

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Noizchild

James Ryan

nadiam

veinglory

volitare nequeo

nadiam

Noizchild

nadiam

veinglory

volitare nequeo

nadiam

Noizchild