How would you write a evil character without making him "sexy" or cool?

Status
Not open for further replies.

gothicangel

Toughen up.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
7,907
Reaction score
691
Location
North of the Wall
The opposite of a "cool and sexy" antagonist stereotype, is of course an even more older stereotype where "evil" (or monstrocity) is written on the body, the Shakespeare Richard III school of writing antagonists, which is just as loathesome. Rather than thinking in such simplistic binaries, work on writing a strong antagonist, rather than a wimpy one.

Though this discussion is reminding me of Woody Allen in Casino Royale (the one with David Niven).
 

CWatts

down the rabbit hole of research...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Messages
1,755
Reaction score
1,231
Location
Virginia, USA
Well, there's the banality of evil route, where the antagonist appears so ordinary that most people don't believe s/he is capable of such acts. For example, Dennis Rader the BTK serial killer was a regular middle-class husband and father who worked as a city code enforcer (he famously measured people's grass with a ruler). Children thought he was creepy though, because they didn't let politeness override their intuition as adults often do. https://www.biography.com/people/dennis-rader-241487
 

HeavilyMedicated

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
225
Reaction score
11
Location
Washington State
Meh. A lot of people will prefer the villain no matter how awful they are. They see darkness as more "interesting."


I don't think describing someone, fictional or not, as evil means you're denying they're human. I feel that evil is part of humanity. (I'm such an optimist.)
 

L.C. Blackwell

Keeper of Fort Blanket
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,373
Reaction score
521
Location
The Coffee Shop
Darth Vader is the archetypal evil in the good-evil conflict; and archetypes tend to leave out real-life nuances--they are big splashes on a wide canvas. The stakes are life-and-death for worlds, the body count gets measured in hundred thousands or millions. If we looked closely, and valued those who are non-characters--collateral damage--then he would be hideous.

However, like many "popular" villains, the quality that makes him attractive is power. Human beings crave power, however twisted the exercise of it. And of course, if a villain lacks power or efficacy, he cannot be a genuine threat to the hero. He has to be able to take away or destroy or do something that will hurt.

In developing my own villains, I've chosen to make them common people with common flaws, who make one bad decision that leads to another. One could be diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder; another is a rationalizer who refuses to face up to responsibility. The rationalizer is a father with a daughter who loves him, who cannot imagine how far his weaknesses will lead him. Neither man is particularly powerful, but they are both inevitable.

Again, I'm not interested in turning them into a warped mirror of the hero. To me, that comes too close to cliché. They are themselves. They threaten/mean to/will if they can cause a loss, in the end, but the power of the conflict does not come from any notable or magnetic quality residing in themselves. It comes from the hero's investment in what he stands to lose--what it means to him.

So, no, you don't have to have an ultra-powerful villain to have high stakes. You simply need to put it in his grasp to hurt or take what the hero loves most. Which means he can be vile, stupid, accidental, banal, laughable, or any other un-cool, un-sexy thing, so long as he poses a credible threat to your hero's happiness.
 

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
Meh. A lot of people will prefer the villain no matter how awful they are. They see darkness as more "interesting."


I don't think describing someone, fictional or not, as evil means you're denying they're human. I feel that evil is part of humanity. (I'm such an optimist.)

Sort of like... An iceberg in the ocean, perhaps? ;-)
 

L.C. Blackwell

Keeper of Fort Blanket
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,373
Reaction score
521
Location
The Coffee Shop
Sort of like... An iceberg in the ocean, perhaps? ;-)

It is like that, and not too funny when you really think about it. There is an amazingly simple recipe for monstrous evil to occur, and it only takes three ingredients:

Perceived self-interest
Opportunity to act
Willful rationalization of the action

Which means that every human being who is committed to self-interest and chooses to rationalize that self-interest above things like sacrifice and unselfish love and compassion, is only a set of opportunities away from becoming their own worst nightmare. That's a lot scarier than Darth Vader.
 

quicklime

all out of fucks to give
Banned
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
8,967
Reaction score
2,074
Location
wisconsin
I notice in a lot of media there is a strong emphasis on the greatness of evil characters. They can often end up more popular than the good guys in the book or on the show, and overshadow everyone else around them.

Darth Vader is a good example. He is a despicable human being who has committed genocide and is responsible for the deaths of billions of people. Yet the common talk is of how much of a badass he is. His coolness has made him one of the most popular characters in history. He is on lunchboxes and has action figures, and people dress up as him in costumes.

How can you write an evil character while reminding the reader that he leaves behind real damage? That he causes suffering and pain to flesh and bone people without dwelling on how awesome he is while doing it?


I don't care if you glorify the bad guy or not, and there's certainly plenty of authors who do not, but many of them at least try to HUMANIZE them, because its hard to root for a cardboard hero, but it isn't much easier to root against a cardboard villain. Stakes sort of go out the window when the bad guy doesn't feel real, and most people get, on a visceral level, that even bad guys believe they're the heroes of their own story.


The other issue is: what are you hoping to accomplish? because even with the lunch boxes, it was because Vader had a cool suit, and cool powers--it wasn't because kids thought that if they worked really hard, one day they could build a weapon of mass destruction and kill millions. If you devote all your energy to going all-in on saying "my bad guy is a bad person of unredeeming badness, and you, dear reader, must know this" then you run the risk of coming across as preaching. You preach at your peril--Manifestos never sell as well as character-oriented stories. Besides which there is a certain element of "trust your reader, he or she probably has big-boy pants and can make their own decisions" at play...
 

OliverCrown

Puttin' daydreams to paper
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
179
Reaction score
11
Location
Delta City, where nothing's normal but the music
Website
www.olivercrown.com
Late on the topic.

First, I agree with a great deal of what's been posted. When you have a strong antagonist - and most of the time I believe you should (exception coming) - you run the risk of that antagonist being more "popular" amongst your audience. It's not a certainty - Ellsworth Toohey in The Fountainhead comes to mind - but folks like Vader, Dracula (in various incarnations), the Alien Queen (sorry, she's a bad ass) can and will happen.

Here's a thought: sometimes there really isn't a villain.

Example: The Martian - and I'm specifically referring to the movie adaptation.

Each human character is acting on what they feel is the best interest and each angle can and is understood. The only real "bad guy" is the planet Mars . . . and I think that's debatable. Some stories and characters can and should be highlighted without the need of "Evil" or "Villainy" to define them.


Granted, this is just a thought before I have to run into a meeting at work.
 

Torill

Not as trollish as you might think
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 3, 2010
Messages
825
Reaction score
239
Location
Oslo, Norway
… the quality that makes him attractive is power. Human beings crave power, however twisted the exercise of it.
This is the key, imo. Power is sexy, or attractive, in and of itself. Part of the dark side of human nature. You (as in general you) would rather be the conqueror than the conquered, rather the bully than the victim. And if you can't be the Master yourself, which is the sad reality for most of us, then you can become the one favoured/loved/protected by the Master.

In other words, the more powerful you make your villain, the more sexy/attractive they may appear. It has little to do with looks. Power trumps looks. Someone would have to be really hideous and repulsive, truly gross, before the charisma of power would fade. In real life that is. In books, where you only describe looks, you could probably make them as ugly as all that. (Of course, if in addition to powerful the villain is also beautiful, and witty, and brilliant and ALL THE GOOD THINGS it will be even worse…)

… a dull, average, nondescript person who just happens to be very good at some job that seems to require a lot of paperwork and organization. (…) A person that just sits at some kind of assembly line, factory style setting, reading comics books to keep himself amused while pushing a button that gases 10 children every five minutes, for example, is neither cool nor sexy.

Actual evil really is quite banal. It's the king who finds genocide irrelevant to personal gain. It's the person paving their way to hell on good intentions, their own myopia and ignorance keeping them from understanding that their 'help' is anything but. A bureaucrat whose greater concern is that rules and regulations are followed than doing what is right.

He's not building an empire, seeking revenge, or following a fiery but misguided ideology. He's just common, dishwater-dull selfish.
(bolding mine)

And this is the solution, I think – write someone who is evil without being particularly powerful. And not alluringly evil like Lucifer's cousin, but yeah, dishwater-dull selfish. The person pushing the gas button in Shoeless' example isn't personally powerful at all, he's just got access to a very powerful instrument. Get him away from that assembly line, and you could probably knock him out with a feather. Same with the paper-pushing bureaucrat, the lowlife scum shopping the hero for money etc. Someone weak abusing the actual powerholder, whether that is an institution or a person, for their own selfish gain. Nobody thought Wormtongue was sexy, even though he was evil as fuck.
 
Last edited:

WormHeart

Dual class author / nightguard
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
254
Reaction score
23
Location
Frozen wasteland of Denmark
Website
www.fromthefrozennorth.com
You can make a character powerful without him/her being instantly sexy, if their true power is inspirational. Vader is popular, The Emperor less so.
I have a villain in my fantasy series, who at first seem to be your run-of-the-mill genocidal cult leader.

But when you get to hear his side of the story, the perspective changes.

He is genuinely trying to create a world governed by brotherly love - where the children of orcs and the children of elves are playing in the meadow. Where the swords are broken and the shields shattered. A world where every specie lives among each other in peace.

But to realize this utopia there can be no place for the warmonger. There can be no time for strife.
Everyone in the world is invited with open arms to join the new world order, but those who cling to their old, warlike ways must go.

So before the world can know peace, there must be a last, great war.

Whenever his armies encounter a new tribe, they are invited to join up. If they refuse, they are slaughtered. Total genocide.

And it is not a sham. Within his growing dominion life is better. Tortur and rape are outlawed. Women are considered equal to men and the peasant has the same basic rights as the nobleman. He routinely executes his own people, when they break those rules and commit warcrimes and yet he lives by them.

When his followers prepare a feast for him, he refuses and have it sent to the orphans of war. He has sworn off the attention of women and lives in celebracy because he fears the corrupting influence of power and is afraid he would some day violate a women too afraid to say no.

He is not sexy or actionminded, but he is terrifying because you GET it. The reader understands his vision and would totally be behind it, if it did not involve global genocide. He is the face of fascism - Ghandi and Hitler combined - but because he keeps himself humble he doesn't become larger than life.

Sorry about the rant - I just really like the guy. :) Hopefully it was somewhat helpful.

WormHeart
 
Last edited:

stiiiiiv

Awww nuts!!!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 26, 2017
Messages
190
Reaction score
23
Location
A village outside a small town in Sweden
Any story that has a strong protagonistic force must have an equally, if not greater, antagonistic force to balance it, otherwise the protagonists struggle loses believability. Having Luke Skywalker fighting against the mighty evil that is Sponge Bob, while a humorous concept, just doesn't have the same umpf as fighting the Emperor/Vader duo. So, if you have a hero that you're trying to portray as sexy etc. the temptation might be to make the villain sexy too, to balance the scales.

It's the story's struggle against the antagonistic force that makes it interesting, so naturally, the antagonist must also be interesting. I believe most authors also find it both more interesting and easier creating villains than heros. Having been actor for many years, I know it's a lot more fun playing the bad guy. The trick, as I see it, is to make the villain a counterbalance without making him/her/it a mirror image of the protagonist. I've created an antagonist, for example , who is supremely powerful, but also cautious to the point of being a supreme coward. There's not much worth emulating in that, but he still more than counterbalances the protagonist.
 

smorrigan

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 16, 2018
Messages
52
Reaction score
3
Location
Wales
Have them kill a dog. No one's gonna find that sexy.

This one wins! and I'm inclined to agree with the comments about giving the villain banal human qualities. There is something truly horrific about a neat and meticulous villain.
 
Last edited:

Enlightened

Always Learning
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
4,863
Reaction score
167
Location
Colorado
You need to start with what your definitions are for: evil; disgusting; grotesque.

Next, you need to ask yourself how is the villain "evil?" Is it just flesh and bone acts against others, or is psychological detriment part of it?

Grotesque (people can sympathize with this person, to some extent). Examples are Sloth (The Goonies) and Golem (LOTR).

Disgusting (beyond contempt; no sympathy). Examples might be pedophiles.

Disgusting takes sexy out of the mix, real fast. Darth Vader was more grotesque than disgusting (as evidenced by his interaction with Luke Skywalker during the fight scene they had).
 

sohalt

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
1,725
Reaction score
392
Location
Austria
Website
notsosilentsister.tumblr.com
By highlighting the banality of evil, the pettiness and small-mindedness involved. Shitty people usually justify their shittness to themselves by insisting that everyone is secretly just as shitty as them, and would act like it too, if only they had the courage. Talk about a lack of imagination!

Also, guaranteed to work: Show the hypocrisy. People can forgive mass murder in a fictional character, if they're sufficiently witty and have "a code", but nobody likes a hypocrite.

Snape-Wives might want to marry Snape on the astral plane, and some shippers lust for Draco in leatherpants, but nobody's pining for Dolores Umbridge.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.