What IS a Romance Novel? Is it just about GETTING the guy, or can it be MORE?

Brian P. White

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This sounds like a dumb question, but I've seen and heard so many conflicting perspectives that I just have to ask.

Also, I want to introduce a novel into the Romance genre that isn't about getting the guy so much as KEEPING him, which is as often a worry in life for many women as getting him in the first place. Even in today's world where women are growing more independent, so many still worry about these two things and want to find comfort or hope (or at least escape) in the pages of Romance novels. Why can't a book about making a seemingly doomed relationship work actually be considered romantic?

Please, help me out.
 

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You can write any kind of love story you like. Genre is about how these stories are categorized according to what readers find most significant. Doomed love can be seen as super romantic (see: Nicholas Sparks) and can be very popular, but it is not genre romance.

Now if on the other hand the relationship is difficult and everyone says it is doomed, but they both grow as people and learn how to stay together, and are committed to be together at the end of the story--that is totally a genre romance. Most genre romances are about the early part of a relationship, but some are not.
 
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Silva

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Getting the guy isn't enough for me, I want to see the character(s) grow and change throughout the process. Personally, I read romance for relational interplay done well and interestingly, because humans and the varied ways they interact with each other is fascinating to me. I read more for the journey than the destination. (I mean, the destination is always the same in romance. HEA.)

Why can't a book about making a seemingly doomed relationship work actually be considered romantic?

It could be, if done well, but there are SO MANY PITFALLS. lol.

And in real life, it's rarely romantic. In real life, too many times the dude is being a jerk and can't understand how or why he's being a jerk and doesn't have the necessary introspection or emotional awareness to take responsibility for his jerkiness, and then the woman sometimes goes back anyway, but just because guilt, or sex, or something else, and not because he's made himself a better person to come back to, and sometimes "he's trying" but you know he's going to stop trying once he feels like he's safely got her again. As a reader, I don't want to see a story where a woman goes back to or forgives her unchanged or mostly unchanged husband because "that's what a real woman is/does" or "it's the Christian thing to do" or any of the bullshit.

And that's not even touching the fact in a healthy relationship there's no KEEPING because men are not gravity defying objects that must be kept on a leash at all times lest they float away. It's not the woman's fault, or the fault of something she did or failed to do, if a dude goes off and does a jerk thing. And it's irritating when women are made to feel crazy for having these insecurities even though men have a grand history of being a jerk and blaming it on women. Obviously, in the story idea you're presenting, a healthy relationship isn't where the characters are going to be starting out, but I don't want to read a story where a woman is portrayed as responsible for her husband's jerkiness and she's the one who has to change in order for them to get back together.

I want to see the guy actually change, and I want to see the woman kick him out on his ass a few times rather than meekly going back to him (or do both, as part of her character arc in becoming a stronger person). As a reader, I'd be looking for something that is deeply cathartic as well as a romantic escape.

But I'm just one reader.
 

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This sounds like a dumb question, but I've seen and heard so many conflicting perspectives that I just have to ask.

Also, I want to introduce a novel into the Romance genre that isn't about getting the guy so much as KEEPING him, which is as often a worry in life for many women as getting him in the first place. Even in today's world where women are growing more independent, so many still worry about these two things and want to find comfort or hope (or at least escape) in the pages of Romance novels. Why can't a book about making a seemingly doomed relationship work actually be considered romantic?

Please, help me out.

I don't know, because who'd read it?

Sorry, I'm sure someone would but I don't think I've ever considered romance novels as 'getting the guy' so much as 'being pursued by the guy.' In that way, romance novels are about making seemingly doomed relationships work (the ones I've seen anyway, they're not really my thing) -- the guy is a cad, a rogue, she puts up with him for a purpose but eventually they fall in love. Is that not the basic trope?

In real life, I can't say I know any woman who is worried about 'keeping the guy' or 'getting the guy,' that I know of, because fuck that noise. Mileage varies.
 

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Sorry, I'm sure someone would but I don't think I've ever considered romance novels as 'getting the guy' so much as 'being pursued by the guy.' In that way, romance novels are about making seemingly doomed relationships work (the ones I've seen anyway, they're not really my thing) -- the guy is a cad, a rogue, she puts up with him for a purpose but eventually they fall in love. Is that not the basic trope?

Romance reader, not romance writer but: pretty much. (The "cad" thing is a specific trope, but the "we think we're not meant for each other even though we are" thing is generally part of the deal.)

To the OP: I guess what I'd want to know is what do you mean by "seemingly doomed." If this is an established relationship where the guy's got one foot out the door and the story is about all the ways she pretzels herself to keep him - not a romance novel.

If it's a situation where there's been estrangement and misunderstanding, and the couple must go through a journey to heal and renew their devotion to each other - yeah, you could make that work as a romance novel. But IME you'd want to make it clear that the problem is that their doubts are due to misunderstanding, and not what the relationship is actually based on.

None of this is to say you shouldn't write the story you want to write, but for marketing purposes you may not want to call it a romance novel.
 

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Sorry, I'm sure someone would but I don't think I've ever considered romance novels as 'getting the guy' so much as 'being pursued by the guy.' In that way, romance novels are about making seemingly doomed relationships work (the ones I've seen anyway, they're not really my thing) -- the guy is a cad, a rogue, she puts up with him for a purpose but eventually they fall in love. Is that not the basic trope?
What? No. I write romance, and have never written anything like that. To me, a romance is about two (or more, these days) people who are right for each other overcoming some obstacle that's keeping them apart, during the course of which they grow enough to earn their Happily Ever After.
 

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For me, aside from the general RWA definition of "a central love story with an emotionally satisfying and optimistic ending," genre romances are about creating, building, and maintaining romantic relationships.

You can certainly write a romance about building and maintaining a romantic relationship after the first glow of creating it--and there are books that do that.
 

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Sorry, I'm sure someone would but I don't think I've ever considered romance novels as 'getting the guy' so much as 'being pursued by the guy.' In that way, romance novels are about making seemingly doomed relationships work (the ones I've seen anyway, they're not really my thing) -- the guy is a cad, a rogue, she puts up with him for a purpose but eventually they fall in love. Is that not the basic trope?

::sigh::

I'm sorry. But if you don't read it and don't write it, then why do you feel the need to comment? It really, really sucks coming into the ROMANCE forum all the time and seeing these kinds of comments. Can we have one happy place where the romance writers and readers can go without having to constantly defend our genre or correct those giving false information because they "don't read and don't really like it"?

It just really gets old.

Amergina, if I stepped over a line... do your thing.
 

Marian Perera

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...the guy is a cad, a rogue, she puts up with him for a purpose but eventually they fall in love. Is that not the basic trope?

I'm just wondering - do you mean, "Is that not the basic trope of a romance which features hero-in-pursuit?" or do you mean "Is that not the basic trope of any romance?"

Because either way, heroes who are cads are not the case for a lot of romances I've read, not to mention the ones I've written. There are also plenty of romances which aren't about seemingly doomed relationships and where the people involved genuinely enjoy being with each other rather than enduring each other's presence until they fall in love.
 

Marian Perera

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Also, I want to introduce a novel into the Romance genre that isn't about getting the guy so much as KEEPING him, which is as often a worry in life for many women as getting him in the first place.

Brian, I'm curious. What romance novels have you read recently?
 

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I would think it depends on why the relationship is 'seemingly doomed'. If it's because one or both are being jerks, I don't want to read a story in which the other partner learns to live with jerkiness. If the relationship is 'doomed' by distance, or circumstance, etc. that could still be romantic, as they learn to overcome or adapt.
 

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This sounds like a dumb question, but I've seen and heard so many conflicting perspectives that I just have to ask.

Also, I want to introduce a novel into the Romance genre that isn't about getting the guy so much as KEEPING him, which is as often a worry in life for many women as getting him in the first place. Even in today's world where women are growing more independent, so many still worry about these two things and want to find comfort or hope (or at least escape) in the pages of Romance novels. Why can't a book about making a seemingly doomed relationship work actually be considered romantic?

Please, help me out.

What exactly do you mean by "keeping" him? The problem with this is that it sounds like it might veer into "Women, if you're really, REALLY good - never less than beautiful, subservient, caring, self-sacrificing - your man might deign to stay with you. But that's entirely on your shoulders, because the man is entitled to leave you if you're not perfect" territory.

The work of relationships is within the realm of romance, although it might veer off into more general classification, such as contemporary fiction.
 

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Romance is the journey of a couple falling in love (or reigniting the love), then riding off into the sunset into their happily ever after. The End.
 
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Fallen

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To me, there's the beginning and end, but it's everything that comes in between that counts. And that's where a good writer gets me: their originality and portrayal. I've read psychopaths getting involved with emerging sociopaths, and the romance there is so diverse and out there that you can't stop riding the bloodbath, no matter how much of train wreck the relationship is, to just see... how the hell can they make it. Grant that's dark romance, but that's the beauty of it: although it has its tropes, romance can be diverse in application. E.g., I like to see the guy get the guy, a normal trope, but how he gets the guy and holds on to him, that's what really counts.
 

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For me, aside from the general RWA definition of "a central love story with an emotionally satisfying and optimistic ending," genre romances are about creating, building, and maintaining romantic relationships.

You can certainly write a romance about building and maintaining a romantic relationship after the first glow of creating it--and there are books that do that.

Beaten to my response by someone better at it. Hate it when that happens!

But this is the right answer. :)

Jeff
 

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This sounds like a dumb question, but I've seen and heard so many conflicting perspectives that I just have to ask.

Also, I want to introduce a novel into the Romance genre that isn't about getting the guy so much as KEEPING him, which is as often a worry in life for many women as getting him in the first place. Even in today's world where women are growing more independent, so many still worry about these two things and want to find comfort or hope (or at least escape) in the pages of Romance novels. Why can't a book about making a seemingly doomed relationship work actually be considered romantic?

Please, help me out.

This sounds very much like women's fiction, maybe general fiction.
 

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I have occasionally seen a romance novel where the main activity is the female character trying to get the male character to let her in, where the main barrier is his own insecurities or the stifling social expectations on him. It's certainly not the most common romance pattern.

I've also seen a few cases where a writer establishes a romance, then all but destroys the relationship, then builds it up, working through hurt and distrust. Personally I think this is a distasteful thing to do and I'm not fond of reading it, but it is one of only a few ways to follow the same pair of characters for a second novel after the first one was a romance novel. Lisanne Norman is one author who has written this kind of thing, if you are willing to read romantic science fiction.
 

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The romances I've read and enjoyed have other things going on besides the romance, though the romantic arc is always central to the story and is related to the other goals or obstacles the two main characters have. For instance, the female* protagonist may have been framed, or she may be in danger of losing the family business, or she's involved in the women's suffrage movement, or she's trying to establish herself in a male-dominated career, or there could be a war or other catastrophe or stressful event taking place. The MMC will generally have goals, problems or obstacles of his own.

As for romances where there's a couple who are working through problems or falling in love with one another anew, I think those would definitely fall within the guidelines for the genre. Romances where someone gets back together with a long-ago love (possibly a childhood sweetheart or first love) aren't uncommon either.

I have also read romances that take place over more than one book, where the couple meets in book one and ends up together, but new obstacles face them in book two.

The unbreakable requirements for the genre are a central love story that has an optimistic ending where the couple is happily together and expects to stay that way.

*Of course, romances can be M/M or F/F too.
 
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Brian P. White

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Thank you for all your responses!

Sorry, I'm sure someone would but I don't think I've ever considered romance novels as 'getting the guy' so much as 'being pursued by the guy.' In that way, romance novels are about making seemingly doomed relationships work (the ones I've seen anyway, they're not really my thing) -- the guy is a cad, a rogue, she puts up with him for a purpose but eventually they fall in love. Is that not the basic trope?
What about a seemingly good guy who's just trapped by his illegal job and wants out, but knows he must do horrible things if he wants to escape?

To the OP: I guess what I'd want to know is what do you mean by "seemingly doomed." If this is an established relationship where the guy's got one foot out the door and the story is about all the ways she pretzels herself to keep him - not a romance novel.
How about if she just sees he's better than everyone thinks--even himself--and essentially fights everyone in her life to prove he is that good (which, he really is, once he gets out of crime)?

To me, a romance is about two (or more, these days) people who are right for each other overcoming some obstacle that's keeping them apart, during the course of which they grow enough to earn their Happily Ever After.
Yeah, that's what I'm going for.

Brian, I'm curious. What romance novels have you read recently?
Frankly, not even a handful. I grew up more on movies than books, but I've always been a sucker for a good love story and I wanted to write an against-all-world love story for both page and screen. This is why I have to ask these questions. I want to share my ideas of love with readers; I've become fonder of what I get from books than from movies, and I want to share that, too. You can tell me I have no business writing novels, but I'm still going to try, and learn everything I can about it. Better that than languish without ever trying.

I would think it depends on why the relationship is 'seemingly doomed'. If it's because one or both are being jerks, I don't want to read a story in which the other partner learns to live with jerkiness. If the relationship is 'doomed' by distance, or circumstance, etc. that could still be romantic, as they learn to overcome or adapt.
Their obstacle: she's a vengeful cop on a personal vendetta with a major drug lord, and he turns out to be the drug lord's top assassin. The two met by chance. The drug lord doesn't know about it, and when he finds out he orders the assassin to kill her. When she finds out, everyone tries to tell her he's not worth it, but she believes she's seen a great man inside that killer and wants to help him atone for it (which he wants, too).

What exactly do you mean by "keeping" him? The problem with this is that it sounds like it might veer into "Women, if you're really, REALLY good - never less than beautiful, subservient, caring, self-sacrificing - your man might deign to stay with you. But that's entirely on your shoulders, because the man is entitled to leave you if you're not perfect" territory.
Definitely not the case in my story.

I have occasionally seen a romance novel where the main activity is the female character trying to get the male character to let her in, where the main barrier is his own insecurities or the stifling social expectations on him. It's certainly not the most common romance pattern.

I've also seen a few cases where a writer establishes a romance, then all but destroys the relationship, then builds it up, working through hurt and distrust. Personally I think this is a distasteful thing to do and I'm not fond of reading it, but it is one of only a few ways to follow the same pair of characters for a second novel after the first one was a romance novel. Lisanne Norman is one author who has written this kind of thing, if you are willing to read romantic science fiction.
With mine, they hit it off pretty much immediately, but they agree not to discuss their jobs. Then they really hit it off. Their budding romance is basically the easy part, even though it challenges the guarded cop to learn to drop her defenses a little and let someone in ... just a little at first. When all parties confess, then they really let each other in. The major conflicts are her fighting off the world to keep him, and her trusting there's still a good man inside the monster she finds out he has been (if he was really in there at all vs. being fooled this whole time) ... and, of course, bringing down that drug lord.

Then there's the sequels, where the characters (SPOILER ALERT) are married and trying to make the following work:
1. their marriage
2. her job while being married to an ex-con
3. raising their child well together
4. surviving all the remnants of his old job that are trying to kill them
5. him wanting to be a cop (or at least help cops in some way) despite being an ex-con
6. surviving all the secrets they both still haven't shared with each other
 
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This sounds like it might be more a romantic thriller than a "romance," exactly. It depends exactly where you put the stress of the plot, but I must admit that when I think "romance novel," I don't exactly think "spies/mobsters/CIA operatives are trying to kill the MCs."
 

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Having a "bad guy" hero isn't uncommon. Off the top of my head I'm thinking of Katee Robert's series THE O'MALLEYS which is set in modern day Boston with rival mob families battling for control. As a matter of fact, the fourth book in the series is a hitman falling for his target, a rival mobster's daughter.

With mine, they hit it off pretty much immediately, but they agree not to discuss their jobs. Then they really hit it off. Their budding romance is basically the easy part, even though it challenges the guarded cop to learn to drop her defenses a little and let someone in ... just a little at first. When all parties confess, then they really let each other in. The major conflicts are her fighting off the world to keep him, and her trusting there's still a good man inside the monster she finds out he has been (if he was really in there at all vs. being fooled this whole time) ... and, of course, bringing down that drug lord.

The reason this is "the easy part" is because you have external and internal conflict for your characters. Your characters will show growth and commitment individually and together.

Then there's the sequels, where the characters (SPOILER ALERT) are married and trying to make the following work:
1. their marriage
2. her job while being married to an ex-con
3. raising their child well together
4. surviving all the remnants of his old job that are trying to kill them
5. him wanting to be a cop (or at least help cops in some way) despite being an ex-con
6. surviving all the secrets they both still haven't shared with each other

Just based on what you have here, I don't believe you will have enough conflict for each of those points to be a stand-alone book. What you listed is essentially a subplot for each book. If you have the hero/heroine in a committed relationship and it's a them against the world setup, something else will need to be the source of conflict/action. If you were to re-order that and have it where he is now a white hat guy instead of a black hat, and he now works deep cover for the authorities, or he was deep cover when they met, then you might be on to something. But I think you'd have to have a "solve this crime" in each book in addition to "raising their child" or "making their marriage work".

Just my two cents.
 

Marian Perera

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Frankly, not even a handful. I grew up more on movies than books, but I've always been a sucker for a good love story and I wanted to write an against-all-world love story for both page and screen. This is why I have to ask these questions. I want to share my ideas of love with readers; I've become fonder of what I get from books than from movies, and I want to share that, too. You can tell me I have no business writing novels, but I'm still going to try, and learn everything I can about it. Better that than languish without ever trying.

I don't think anyone here has said (or will say), "Brian, you have no business writing novels."

However, the first step to writing in any genre is to read it. So if you want to write a romance novel, it's time to start reading them - as many as you can. It's great that you want to share your ideas with readers, but if you're hoping to compete with other authors in a crowded marketplace, you'll need to know how to reach readers, what works for them and what doesn't.

Enthusiasm is a good beginning, but it won't get you anywhere on its own.

Their obstacle: she's a vengeful cop on a personal vendetta with a major drug lord, and he turns out to be the drug lord's top assassin.

Hitman romance series : Anne Stuart, Katee Robert, Jen Frederick, Leslie Langtry. Probably others I don't know about.

Whatever genre you decide your story fits into, don't stop at asking questions here. Read lots of it.
 
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Brian P. White

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If you were to re-order that and have it where he is now a white hat guy instead of a black hat, and he now works deep cover for the authorities, or he was deep cover when they met, then you might be on to something.
Yup;^)

Oh, and that list isn't a list of sequels; it's a list of all the things the couple will go through in pretty much every sequel.
 
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