Concern with cultural erasure

tabathabell

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Here's to another thread that branched off another one. Haha.

I'm hoping that this question can be resolved or discussed in order to help with an issue I'm having. In my WIP, it is based around Irish mythology. I have been struggling to add ethnic diversity in where people with disabilities and LGBTQ+ have already found their place in my story. I think I have gotten part of it figured out where I am wanting to make one of the four main characters, a girl, of mixed race. I haven't decided which yet, but I am wanting to do so. However, she has originally been a white girl. The only ethnically diverse character in my story thus far is my MC's best friend who we only see in three to four chapters but has a bigger role to play in the series.

However, my question I bring to the table is, since this is Irish mythology and I am bringing in someone of mixed race (half white, half either Indian or African, unsure as of this point), would that be considered cultural erasure if I focus more on her Irish heritage rather than her Indian or African heritage if that is not what the plot calls for? I'm thinking along the lines of Percy Jackson and how Rick Riordan still included diversity in spite of his stories being central around Greek/Roman/Norse myth.

Thoughts?
 
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Shoeless

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From a purely narrative point of view, I would say that this is the choice of your character, depending on her own choices growing up. People who grow up with mixed parentage must often decide for themselves how much of their respective cultures they wish to take an interest in, but a lot of that is also down to how "useful" or "cool" it is to that character to embrace that culture. I know some mixed Chinese, for example, who have a passing familiarity with Chinese New Year, when some relatives show up, as well as a fondness for some types of Chinese food, but otherwise only speak a few words of Cantonese remembered from childhood, and live a predominantly western lifestyle otherwise, simply because school, acquaintances and a life in Canada meant that exposure to the Chinese side of the heritage was marginal.

In the same way, my own wife is actually Eurasian. She was born in Singapore, grew up there, but had a Chinese father, while her mother was from the Eurasian side, meaning several generations of mixed parentage, though clearly her ancestry was British, since her mother's maiden name was Philips. Because she grew up in Singapore, with a dominant Chinese culture, that was largely influenced by British colonial rule right up until WWII, she grew up with a weird mix of "You're Chinese," because her father was Chinese, and so, predominantly, was Singapore, population-wise, but, because there was still a certain "cultural cache" attached to British ancestry, she was encouraged to not ignore or dismiss that aspect of her bloodline either.

But a lot of thse choices will depend entirely on the individual character and how he or she reacts to the situations encountered growing up. I remember another acquaintance of mine who was mixed. She was half-Irish, half-Filipino. Because of the area I grew up in, a more conservative, predominantly white area in central Canada, she had some trouble growing up being a mixed girl, and eventually chose to focus more on her Irish ancestry than her Filipino culture, because that was just easier in that context. People of mixed ethnicity have a unique situation, which makes for unique choices in terms of culture and heritage.
 

tabathabell

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I've always been an advocate for ethnic diversity in my stories, which is why this is particularly hard because I've wanted to write something that is based around the culture that I derive from and with how Irish immigration has effected even the United States in general is enough for me to rethink a lot of stuff for this manuscript. While I understand what you're saying, I also don't want to come off as ignoring other cultures in favor of the one I'm writing for, but then again, Rick Riordan did it flawlessly, including black, Hispanic, Asian, etc. in his novels in spite of it being based around a white based mythology such as the Greeks.

And yet, here I am, doubting myself. I'm just not sure how I want to go about it because I definitely want this for my story to add depth into the immigration of the Irish over the thousands of years back to the Celts. It's one of these things that I want to make sure that I'm going into with sensitivity before I do anything substantial with it.
 

Snitchcat

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My question is: are you including diversity for diversity's sake, or because that's what the story demands?

Apologies if you've already answered this question and I missed it. If I missed it, please point out where the answer is.
 

Layla Nahar

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"I have been struggling to add ethnic diversity in where people with disabilities and LGBTQ+ have already found their place in my story"

Like snitchcat, I'm wondering if the story calls for it.
 

tabathabell

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It takes place in Boston, MA and Ireland.

So on the Boston side, yes, it absolutely does. I have a POC character from that side of the story but she's only in it for three or four chapters as like an intro to a bigger point to her character in future sequels, but on the Irish side, not entirely. The four main characters, I feel, should be white. But I'm coming to this conundrum of "do they NEED to be?".

That and the fact that, like the title suggests, I'm worried that if I do end up making one of my MC's mixed race, that I would be causing cultural erasure with the other part of her that is non-white. But then I look and see about Rick Riordan and how he has included it in his Greek and Norse myth stories with no issues.

So I'm between this really weird stage of confusion.

EDIT: And to be clear, the story only takes place in Boston in the first seven or so chapters and the last chapter. The bulk of the story takes place in Ireland.
 
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Layla Nahar

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I think that the question "do they NEED to be?" indicates that the writer is trying to force something. IMO, you're letting the story be a vehicle rather than just a story.
 

tabathabell

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I'm starting to think that too.

The problem is that I am one of the people who cannot stand an all-white cast of characters. In my first self-published work, I had a lot of diversity. This time around, I don't. I mean, I have people with disabilities and LGBTQ+ and then I have one POC that we only see for like three chapters at the most because her character needs to be introduced but she's not relevant to the overall story until later.

The character in question is, right now, the girl is a warrior type that's struggling to deal with familial pressures that are the result of her being a lesbian. I've been teetering between her being a white, red headed girl or a mixed race half-white, half-Indian. Mostly because, hell, even the PM of Ireland is exactly that. The only thing that is holding me back from making Tegan (the name of the character), mixed race is when I play her out, will the culture and heritage as an Indian be too overshadowed and become offensive in that way? Because Tegan was initially POC anyway. I changed her to white because I convinced myself that it would be offensive to include someone of mixed race and completely ignore the other culture she is a part of.

Thoughts?
 

Shoeless

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This is where that element of character choice comes in. If you're going to have a character be half-Irish and half-Indian, the question she will have asked for herself, and answered over the years is "How much of each do I want to be?" And that question will be answered by her experiences growing up, including what her family, friends and the public at large do.

So, in this particular situation, if I'm reading it right, you're saying you have a protagonist who has an Irish parent, and an Indian parent, but it seems like she's actually grown up in Boston. So that means in the case of both parents, their original ancestry and culture is actually overshadowed by the fact that your main character is growing up in an American city, with American values, culture and friends. That means that BOTH cultures are likely to take a backseat to the every day demands of being an American girl, reading American books and watching American TV, with American school concerns.

So now where it would get tricky is the question of how receptive has she been throughout her childhood to her parents and their cultural background? Are her parents 2nd or 3rd generation, having also grown up in America, or are they both immigrants from their respective countries, with strong cultural connections even to this day? Because that can make a HUGE difference. A 3rd generation Irish descended parent, for example, is not likely to be as focused on the immediacy of Irish culture as a spouse that is a recent immigrant from India, and is still very much steeped in the Hindu faith, with memories of watching movies in Bombay with friends, and a vivid love of Bollywood film and food from street vendors.

And then it gets down to your main character and how receptive or resistant she is to the attempts by her parents to expose her to her culture. Did she have a good experience in school, where the other kids were okay with her mixed parentage? Or was she teased about being a "half-breed" and that made her bury one aspect of herself in order to fit in? Or did that traumatic experience make her dig her heels and say "No I'm Indian, and you just have to deal with that."

Or it could be that she more interest in one line of ancestry than another, or was not really interested in either, until she got older, which is something that can also happen. Some immigrant children can focus on just integrating with the dominant culture, but, as they get older, finally start becoming interested in where they come from, once they've asserted themselves, feel comfortable with their own identity, and no longer have a burning need to fit in by embracing as much of the dominant culture as possible.

There's a lot of different ways that this can go, but they're all dependent on the choices that your main character makes as far what's important in her culture and what's not, and part of that is shaped by her family and her experiences growing up. She can be as proud of her Indian heritage as you want her to be, as indifferent, or even ashamed of it, until she changes her mind later. She can be conflicted about wanting to hold onto her Indian heritage, but at the same time drawn to the power of the Irish mythos, and that can be a struggle for her character, if you want it to be. What happens when the culture and ancestry you're invested in gets overpowered by another? She could have a crisis of identity where she wrestles with her own personal cultural imperialism of "I love that I am from India, but crazy stuff, overpowering stuff is happening with my Irish blood, how do I embrace the Irish stuff that's happening without annihilating my Indian self?"

These are the kinds of questions that people with mixed parentage--or even just second or third immigrant children--wrestle with all the time. And everyone finds a different answer.
 

Snitchcat

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Because Tegan was initially POC anyway. I changed her to white because I convinced myself that it would be offensive to include someone of mixed race and completely ignore the other culture she is a part of.

Huh. Where did you get the notion it'd be offensive to include a mixed-ethnicity character and ignore one culture of her heritage? Offensive? IMO, nope. However, it'd be incredibly infuriating. A mixed character, however, will face challenges and aspects of society that a single-ethnicity character would not.

And if Tegan was initially a POC, then, let her be POC. Because that's what the story asked for.

The four main characters, I feel, should be white. But I'm coming to this conundrum of "do they NEED to be?".

Bolding mine.

Sounds like you're trying too hard to be deliberately ethnically diverse when the story doesn't require it. Consider: who does the MC hang around with? Who do the four MCs hang around with? Who do they encounter in their adventures? Just because a city has a diverse population, doesn't mean that the diversity pervades the entire city. There are pockets where one ethnicity dominates or is exclusively one ethnicity.

Btw, which bit of Ireland for most of the story? Do you know the composition of ethnicities where your MC(s) is? That would give you plenty of direction regarding the POC aspect of your story.

And, the other question: Why move to Ireland? Again, that'd influence your MC's / MCs' ethnicity / heritage.
 

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Tell your characters’ stories. Let them be themselves. Don't try to force story or characters. Let them speak and be themselves.
 
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tabathabell

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Huh. Where did you get the notion it'd be offensive to include a mixed-ethnicity character and ignore one culture of her heritage? Offensive? IMO, nope. However, it'd be incredibly infuriating. A mixed character, however, will face challenges and aspects of society that a single-ethnicity character would not.

Since the story is based around mythological stories that came from the Celtic Irish. The story essentially makes the character a sort of goddess, per se. It's hard to explain without giving too much away for right now since I'm still in the throws of a first draft, but this story is going to be centered mostly around her heritage of the Irish side. My concern was focusing on that and thus ignoring the part of her that is Indian. The infuriating part is the thing I'm most concerned of, but from what I've seen when it comes to the Percy Jackson series by Rick Riordan, that doesn't become a problem since there are plenty of mixed race POC in those stories and they focus primarily on the Greek part of them since they are children of Gods and Goddesses. So I'm trying to research that more in order to sort of model myself after that. I fully prepared to at least acknowledge her Indian heritage in some form in at least one scene of the story to kind of set a sort of character element to Tegan.

Btw, which bit of Ireland for most of the story? Do you know the composition of ethnicities where your MC(s) is? That would give you plenty of direction regarding the POC aspect of your story.

And, the other question: Why move to Ireland? Again, that'd influence your MC's / MCs' ethnicity / heritage.

Basically the story goes like this: Boston ---> Kerry Cliffs ---> Irish Otherworld ---> Galway ---> Irish Otherworld ---> Boston.

However, all four of the MC's are from different places, but they each have at least one parent that is from Ireland. For example, my main MC has both parents from Ireland but moved to Boston when she was about 6 or 7. I have another, like mentioned before, who has an Irish father and an Indian mother who moved to Ireland in her own youth since I was given the idea of the Celtic Tiger that happened in the early 2000's, which is when she would've been born anyway. And then I have another character who has both parents from Ireland and never left. Another that had an Welsh father and an Irish mother who left to England in order to escape this mystical life that she had been drawn into due to her birthright. It's a lot of different characters with different backgrounds. It's not really a linear thing.

So it's not really "moving to Ireland". They are there for a purpose due to the calling of the story's plot. It starts there because that's where my primary MC starts off as, if that makes any sense.
 

JetFueledCar

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I have a serious question, which I think is best asked now, before you get hundreds of hours and several drafts into this project and can't stand to change anything. Why does everyone have to have a parent from Ireland? You yourself have pointed out Irish people emigrated to all kinds of other places, and have done for hundreds of years. Why can't one of the MCs be so far removed from Ireland they don't even know they're Irish until their blood starts calling them to the Otherworld?

There may be a solid reason for this. But it seems from this and the other thread like part of why you're struggling to find a "place" for a POC character is because you're set on everyone being from Ireland, which is predominantly white. It's clearly very important to you that your book represent the diversity of the world, which is great. I occasionally look at my drafts and go "Not even my private suburban college prep high school was this white." And like you, I feel the need to change it, because that's just not how the world looks. But I'm going to give two variations on what's been said above:

1) Shoehorning in a POC character is not going to do you or your book any favors. You want to do what you implied when describing the other diversity in this book and find their place.

2) In almost every case, a character does not "need" to be POC. No more does a character "need" to be female, or queer (yes, I say queer, because my brand of queerness is eliminated from almost every acronym currently in use). But you also don't have to justify writing a diverse book. You absolutely do have to justify it if you take a white character whose experiences reek of privilege, change their skin tone, and call them POC. But for putting a respectful, three-dimensional character who is POC in the book--honestly I don't see the need for any further justification than "That's what the world actually looks like."

Disclaimer: I'm white as your average piece of paper, but I'm also queer in every direction you can think of and probably one or two you can't. When I want a character "like me," I have to write them myself. They just don't exist otherwise. And I'm honestly frankly tired of it. I don't subscribe to the "Don't write oppressed groups if you're in their privileged counterpart" because I'm sick to death of not finding characters "like me" that I didn't write myself.

ETA: Not being POC, naturally, means POC may have very different views on this. There are next to no books about nonbinary characters, well-written or not, but plenty of well-meaning books written about POC by white people that got everything wrong. But I'm in the same boat as you in feeling that having an all-white cast, or even all-white MCs in a book with multiple MCs, feels like I'm going to hurt people at least as much as I would if I tried, did my homework, got the sensitivity readers--and still got it wrong.
 
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autumnleaf

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Disclaimer: I'm Irish and super-white, and I already contributed to the other thread. It seems like your going for someone who grew up in Ireland and is mixed race: someone like Leo Varadkar (current Irish Prime Minister, half-white half-Indian, also gay), or Ruth Negga (actress, half-white half-Ethiopian), or Phil Lynott (mother from Dublin, father from British Guiana). Which I think would be pretty cool, acknowledging that the Irish population has got that diversity in it, increasingly so in the past 25 years or so.

But the experience of someone growing up as a POC in Ireland would be different to that of a POC in America or the UK. In some ways it might be better, because there isn't the same historical baggage (about race, we have plenty of other historical baggage) but in other ways it would be worse because you'd stick out more obviously (especially in small towns). Your experience would also depend on your background; Varadkar grew up fairly privileged as the child of a doctor in a posh part of Dublin, so that probably sheltered him to some extent, whereas African taxi drivers deal constantly with overt racism from customers (especially with drunks late at night) and white colleagues (some of whom have a "they're taking our jobs" attitude).

Here are some interesting articles I found:
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/growing-up-biracial-in-small-town-ireland-2073068-May2015/
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/...uth-negga-i-became-an-actor-to-hide-1.2934623
http://www.dailyedge.ie/una-minh-kavanagh-3347592-Apr2017/
 

autumnleaf

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As a quick note, Greece wasn't precisely homogenous either. The ancient world, esp roman era, was all over the place.

That's true. The ancient Greeks and Romans would have had very different ideas about "race" than we do. It was far easier in those days to travel by sea than overland -- the Mediterranean was a great highway -- so they probably had more in common with the peoples of North Africa and the Middle East than they did with those in Northern Europe.
 

tabathabell

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I have a serious question, which I think is best asked now, before you get hundreds of hours and several drafts into this project and can't stand to change anything. Why does everyone have to have a parent from Ireland?

I'm very glad you made me think about this, but even through thought, I think at least one parent should be for the same aspect that one of the parents of any child from the Percy Jackson series has a Greek parent (a God or a Goddess). I think it's because of the purity aspect of it. Since my story has something to do with the Tuatha de Danaan and the Four Treasures, I think that there has to be some sort of purity there as an Irish parent. Granted, you're right in thinking that it could become muddled due to the fact that I am going to be including a mixed race character in there, but she grew up in Ireland, as well (see autumnleaf's response). It's kind of a cultural thing, I want to say. Because with the way my story is, it would be really hard for me to justify why they are in the position they are in, in the first place since the entire story line is based around a descent of those Treasures from parent to child. Granted, I have put a loophole in there for it to change bloodlines, but the same principle still applies.

The main reason is because I don't see someone like myself, who is about a quarter Irish due to both of my great-grandfathers being off-the-boat, being someone like who I am writing about. I've got about a quarter Irish in me, but I've also got a lot of Polish and Blackfoot Indian in me and a million other things because I am SO FAR removed from the country (like three generations), as well and I have never once been to the country (even though I'm going next year). On the other side of things, related to this question, I don't see someone who had a grandmother from Ireland, move to the U.S., marry an African American man, and then through several generations, that one part of them gets lost in a sea of other backgrounds and cultures and still have that attachment to that culture as much as someone who has a direct line to that country through a parent or is from there themselves. In essence, if I'm looking through my characters' perspectives on this, I wouldn't have the same attachment to the culture as someone who has lived there and grown up around its legends and customs and had that inner "magic" so to speak.

Now if it still doesn't make sense to anybody why I would do that, I would love to discuss that and see if there would be a better approach to that.

You absolutely do have to justify it if you take a white character whose experiences reek of privilege, change their skin tone, and call them POC. But for putting a respectful, three-dimensional character who is POC in the book--honestly I don't see the need for any further justification than "That's what the world actually looks like."

I had quite the opposite experience in this case, though. Tegan was initially mixed race anyway, then I got paranoid thinking that it would be a misrepresentation or it would come off offensively and changed her to white for like... two weeks. Now I'm back to her original mixed race characterization. The character has always had the same issues that would be represented in the story, but when I changed her, I took out the racial ones, obviously but that didn't feel right either, which is why I pretty much started this thread to try and figure out what is correct and the right way to go about something like this.

It seems like your going for someone who grew up in Ireland and is mixed race: someone like Leo Varadkar (current Irish Prime Minister, half-white half-Indian, also gay)

It's because you, yourself, told me about him that Tegan is mixed race Indian. I didn't know anything about the Celtic Tiger and I read up on it and it seemed more fitting that she was half-Indian (which I came up with a better backstory because of this, thank you!).

As a quick note, Greece wasn't precisely homogenous either. The ancient world, esp roman era, was all over the place.

That I do know. I was a giant nerd about history in high school/college about the Greek and Roman empires. >_> I think the more trouble I ran into with this story regarding this has been due to modern day aesthetics, not necessarily in the past and I think that's where Rick Riordan didn't have any issues either since it was his modern day and the Gods slept with EVERYONE.

EDIT: I read through one of the articles that autumnleaf provided and it did give me an idea for the story that would be relevant. In my own argument, I saw a loophole as well. One of the articles was from a girl who was adopted from Vietnam as a baby and raised in Ireland, but has a ton of Irish pride. I think that could substantially be cause enough for that magic to be just as a part of her as it is for someone else. I think there was another point made earlier regarding on the culture that person is a part of. If they were raised in Ireland and have more of a connection to that as opposed to India, where they have never seen since that parent moved from there to Ireland... I think that's a good point. :)
 
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frimble3

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1. Galway and Boston are both port cities, so it seems quite natural that they would have people from around world.
2. Tegan's background could go either way, depending on what her family is like. Maybe they want to encourage her to remember her non-Irish heritage, or maybe they are trying to downplay it. Maybe her parents are trying to make sure she doesn't forget her roots, and at least one of the grandparents is determined that this non-Irish looking child will be 'more Irish than the Irish' and fills her head with history, mythology, poetry etc. And sends her to Irish dance classes, and competitions.

She could be a useful resource for your MC, and a way to feed in information.
 

tabathabell

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She's essentially the warrior of the group since that's the trait of the Treasure she holds. So she's going to have a lot of influence regardless within the story's plot. A lot of what you said is useful as well for backstory for her, so thank you. :)