how do you handle the darker aspects of a grim-dark setting without being too edgy?

sharad9 said:

Many grimdark settings focus on the darker aspects of human nature (war, murder, rape, etc). Some portray this to be edgy in order to paint the world as dark or mature without reason. An example would be warhammer 40k, which exists in a universe in which there is constant war. The good guys are a fanatical authoritarian empire that destroys planets for heresy and turns children into super soldiers, with the bad guys being even worse. Much of what happens is terrible, but treated as a normal part of life in the setting. There is a lack of emotional focus on the victims, or how people would realistically react in these circumstances. Much of it, such as the murder of billions of people in an instant, are treated as shock value and makes it hard to emphasize with the characters. While you recognize the constant horror, the reader becomes apathetic to it.
How can you accurately and maturely portray these themes while still focusing on the emotional weight they carry? And how do you do it without over-doing or reveling in it? How much is too much?

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First, that's apparently a game, not a book.

Second, what do you want to do?

No one empathizes with billions of people, nor is that likely to be the focus of a book.

Also, there is no 'how people would realistically react' in circumstances that don't exist, so ... I mean it's fiction. What are your goals? What are you writing?

sharad9 said:

How can you accurately and maturely portray these themes while still focusing on the emotional weight they carry? And how do you do it without over-doing or reveling in it?

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Focus on the way events affect your characters. It's overwhelming to care about the deaths of a million people, but you can show your readers the grief surrounding the loss of a single character. For example, when Tarkin destroys Alderaan in Star Wars, the viewer reacts to Leia's grief more than the act of genocide.

How much is too much?

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There's no way to answer this question as everyone has a different line. My threshold is quite high, and I have relatives who won't read my work because I cross their lines. Know your audience; write for them (and yourself.)

Whatever the story requires.

caw

blacbird said:

Whatever the story requires.

caw

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Agreed. But I would also say a little goes a long way. Themes like war, rape, murder, genocide, persecution for unjust reasons are dark. That's a given. However, if one spews too much in the name of edginess? No, that doesn't work at all. It just turns into something gross. So as much as you need, but don't go overboard.

sharad9 said:

Many grimdark settings focus on the darker aspects of human nature (war, murder, rape, etc). Some portray this to be edgy in order to paint the world as dark or mature without reason. An example would be warhammer 40k, which exists in a universe in which there is constant war. The good guys are a fanatical authoritarian empire that destroys planets for heresy and turns children into super soldiers, with the bad guys being even worse. Much of what happens is terrible, but treated as a normal part of life in the setting. There is a lack of emotional focus on the victims, or how people would realistically react in these circumstances. Much of it, such as the murder of billions of people in an instant, are treated as shock value and makes it hard to emphasize with the characters. While you recognize the constant horror, the reader becomes apathetic to it.
How can you accurately and maturely portray these themes while still focusing on the emotional weight they carry? And how do you do it without over-doing or reveling in it? How much is too much?

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Hm. I'll ask the same thing as Cornflake. Or something like it. What's the premise? What kind of story are you writing? A space fantasy, or an epic fantasy, or something else entirely? It's an interesting question, and all I can say is, as long as you're respectful when you address such issues, you can push it a bit. The thing is, people sometimes tend to push it too far. People like action and angst and drama, but they don't really like things when they become gross. Have you go an idea that you're working with?

Carnage as large in scope as what you describe is not the story. It's the backdrop to the story.

When it's not impacting the characters or the story directly, spend as much time on it as you would spend describing a room the characters are standing in.

If it is impacting the characters or the story directly, then focus more on it -- just as you would focus more on a murder weapon and dead body while they are galvanizing your characters's attention (while they are standing in a room).

I think you need to carefully balance the grim darkness and the light, too much relentless darkness becomes desensitising and monotone. This can be done by giving characters hope that things might improve in small or personal ways, or perhaps a character that still maintains their optimism in the face of all the carnage. Also, show them taking pleasure and joy whenever they can. Aliens might be threatening to overwhelm a city's defences but there is still time for a squad of soldiers to smoke a cigarette, drink some bad booze and, for a little while, try to forget about it with the help of good company.

Okay firstly 40k is far more jokey than dark. I've skimmed through some of the (very meh) 40k spinoff novels and played quite a lot of the miniatures and roleplay games in that setting (I particularly enjoy playing pacifists in 40k, to the endless frustration of my group). It's fun, but the "darkness" is borderline juvenile, almost parodic at times.

Part of that is there is no contrast. Everything is unrelentingly grim and therefore we have no subjective sunshine which proves the shadow. Dead baby carcasses turned into robots? Meh. People tortured for centuries? Meh. Thousands of psykers slaughtered daily to make space travel possible? Meh.

No one in the setting cares so I don't either, as a consumer of that media. It's just fluff.

There needs (IMO) to be connection with the characters, so that we are invested in what happens to them, and there needs to be contrast with the grimdark because said characters need to have hope for something better, or fear of losing something precious. If everything is unrelentingly miserable then death is probably a blessing and there aren't any stakes.

TLDR: don't copy 40k if you're aiming for serious exploration of darkness, and/or want your readers to engage ;p

It doesn't sound dark so much as biblical and rather religious heavy.

I would consider having a heavenly equivalent. It always reads as odd to me over when a world is chock full of demonic presence but not angelic, given that they have the same source.

Not everyone will be a believer presumably, or that would lack nuance. Someone's got to be annoyed that god let them get screwed over.

I've skimmed through some of the (very meh) 40k spinoff novels

I think that's pretty unfair - there have been some really excellent books published by Games Workshop. I would heartily recommend any of the novels by Ian Watson, particularly Space Marine (1993). Kim Newman (writing as Jack Yeovil) also wrote a lot of novels for Games Workshop in the 90s, including some really great proto-grimdark sci-fi with Elvis fighting the KKK, the Mormons, and Lovecraftian horrors in a Mad Max America.

sharad9 said:

Many grimdark settings focus on the darker aspects of human nature (war, murder, rape, etc). Some portray this to be edgy in order to paint the world as dark or mature without reason. An example would be warhammer 40k...............
....................Much of it, such as the murder of billions of people in an instant, are treated as shock value and makes it hard to emphasize with the characters. While you recognize the constant horror, the reader becomes apathetic to it.
How can you accurately and maturely portray these themes while still focusing on the emotional weight they carry? And how do you do it without over-doing or reveling in it? How much is too much?

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You got several different things bundled together here. Warhammer is played for fun. If somebody reads "grimdark" for fun, they will laught at whatever grim and dark stuff you throw at them, because they don't take it for real. Just like cartoon characters shoot each other in the face or get splattered under a fridge. On the other hand, Schindler's List is not grimdark although it's very grim and very dark, and makes people cry. Or, Blood Meridian. Perhaps learn from those. A general rule of thumb is, people care when things get realistic. Nuking cities in Civ (PC game) is fun. Reading about Hiroshima is not. It's not "the shock value", it's that subtle way an author manages to communicate emotion to the reader. Game of Thrones makes people cry because the characters seem like real people while, on the other hand, Buggs Bunny doesn't. The question of "how much is too much" should bother you only after you already manage to make the reader care, make them cry, empathize, etc. If your reader starts puking, that's enough and you can stop over-doing it further. Just think about your reader and not about what you want to write because it's fun for you.

sharad9 said:

IYHO, Do you believe there is a way to make 40k less over the top and be taken seriously? Keep the original premise but make it feel more realistic?

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In all honesty, no. The original premise is, largely, dark ages Europe IN SPAAAAAAACE! hammed up to the nth degree. The premise plays off the notion that you're not supposed to take it seriously and it runs with it. I think when you have powered armored space marines fighting space elves, space orcs with Cockney accents, and quite literal demons with chainsaw swords and guns that shoot miniature rockets, the notion that should be taking any of this shit seriously goes right out the fucking window.

it's all in execution.

40k doesn't explore the darkness at all. It just uses it as a gaudy, 80s-themed pseudo-catholic set piece.

WH40k is deliberately, joyously over the top and exists solely to sell toy soldiers for truly enormous amounts of money. It's great fun and some of the novels are actually very good (those by Dan Abnett and Gav Thorpe especially) but at its heart it's silly because it's supposed to be silly, so I wouldn't use it as a benchmark for writing fiction.

For the sort of thing you're looking at, I strongly recommend you read The Vagrant by Peter Newman or Blackwing by Ed McDonald (just released in the UK, I think it comes out in October in the US) both of which have the whole "escaped demons" thing going on in spades, and are both brilliant.

+1 to above

I'm curious if anyone out there has any 'grimlite' suggestions they care to mention. Gritty and realistic but not mired in excessive violence and pessimism. I'd cite Sebastian de Castell's Greatcoats series as an example, maybe the Locke Lamora series, and anything on the sunnier side of the street from Joe Abercromibie. But, since it's a slippery definition, use you own judgement.

Mieville's fantasy books are grimdark... you might say grimy dark. Post industrial steampunk wetware biotech/bloodmagic stuff going on. Lots of racism, classism, murder, and some rape/exploitation. In general it's handled well, and stuff doesn't feel gratuitously gratuitous.

Scar, Perdido Street Station, Railsea... I think he has a couple more. Iron Council was so dull I gave up though.

In general I find his ideas great but his execution a little unwieldy, especially in regards to plotting; however they are excellent books for an example of good worldbuilding (imo), and some nice characterisation.

Scar is probably my favorite of the ones I've mentioned, followed by Railsea. Perdido Street Station won awards but I struggled with the final third of it.

Man, Perdido Street was a crazy book. That world could go anywhere and Mieville knew it, so he did.

Mmm. Too many bait and switch attempts for my liking, at the end. (I don't want to go into it too much and spoil it for the uninitiated so I'll leave it there).

But yes it was heckin' nuts. I think this might be why I preferred the other two, though--I think Mieville is at his best when he lets his imagination run riot.

like Island of the Mosquito People in Scar... probably my favorite fantasy location/sentient race.

Kjbartolotta said:

I'm curious if anyone out there has any 'grimlite' suggestions they care to mention. Gritty and realistic but not mired in excessive violence and pessimism. I'd cite Sebastian de Castell's Greatcoats series as an example, maybe the Locke Lamora series, and anything on the sunnier side of the street from Joe Abercromibie. But, since it's a slippery definition, use you own judgement.

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Possibly David Coe's Thieftaker series (although it's alt-history with a fantasy twist, not secondary world). I'd say Tad William's Osten Ard series borders on grimdark but doesn't wallow in it.

Francis Knight's Fade To Black is a good example of this, as is her (writing as Julia Knight) Duellists series.

Harlequin said:

But yes it was heckin' nuts. I think this might be why I preferred the other two, though--I think Mieville is at his best when he lets his imagination run riot.

like Island of the Mosquito People in Scar... probably my favorite fantasy location/sentient race.

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Agh, damn you, Harlequin. Haven't read that one. Time to add the samples to my Kindle so I can "peruse" them but not actually buy them, which fails every. Single. Time.