Trump to Ban Trans People from the Military

cornflake · Jul 26, 2017

Diana Hignutt said:
What about the 15,000 current trans service members? (Number from a tweet I just got from the ACLU) Surely, they might have legal standing?

I'd think they should have standing, sure; they're directly affected, presumably, though no one appears to know what the hell his stupid regulations via twitter' means (like is it supposed to mean kicking people out, specifying roles, not letting new people in, not paying for certain things, who knows). And removing previously afforded status is weird, yeah, which I'd imagine will be a big part of their fight, at least in the immediate sense, though, again, I don't think anyone even knows what they're going to be fighting.

That's probably why the request for contact from current military -- both because they will take plaintiffs (and need plaintiffs) and because no one knows what's going on or what form it's going to take, so they're looking for people who will say, 'I was just told...' so they can figure out a plan.

ElaineA · Jul 26, 2017

James D. Macdonald said:
No. Administrative (for the convenience of the government) discharges under honorable circumstances.

Yes, but so much more (and worse), according to one ex-military member ousted under Don't Ask, Don't Tell (Twitter link)

For those who don't have Twitter access, Ms. Mitchell explains (keeping the statements as she wrote them in her tweets)

They gave you a general discharge (instead of an honorable one,) usually on a Section 8: "mentally unfit for service." This

meant you never qualified for veteran benefits of any kind: no VA service, no grants or scholarships as a veteran, no veteran housing

assistance, nothing. And it was on your transcripts forever: GENERAL DISCHARGE, MENTALLY UNFIT FOR SERVICE. Imagine what that does when you

have to apply for civilian employment. So you joined the military because you were patriotic, or because you wanted to learn a career, or

you were poor and wanted to get the GI Bill, or because you truly, genuinely believed that you were working in service to the American

people and to the ideals of creating a more perfect union. But if you were queer, they sectioned you out and stained you for life. I cried

at Pride a few years ago, when I saw those out and proud servicepeople marching in the parade. We had come so far, THEY had come so far, and

it healed in me the hurt I held in my heart from being sectioned out under DADA. Today's pronouncement from Trump cuts a new wound, deeper
<snip>
Tens of thousands of transgender servicepeople are now on the verge of being separated from their service. Some may lose pensions, many will

lose the GI Bill. All will be marked GENERAL DISCHARGE, MENTALLY UNFIT FOR SERVICE.

I do have some faith that Congress and the Generals won't allow this to become policy if they have any way to stop it.

Oh, also...the amount of money the VA spends on Viagra and other ED pills is 5x the upper limit of the range they spend on transgender military members' medical care.

Methinks a distraction was needed. That's one thing DJT can deliver in spades.

Alpha Echo · Jul 26, 2017

I read the book Sex and the Constitution , and it went into the military discharges during the DADT. I had no idea what those poor soldiers were put though. After they were discharged, they couldn't find jobs. It drove some to even more depression and seclusion. And even beyond that - government and military officials went out of their way to literally hunt down gay and lesbian soldiers. Not just during DADT. If two women were merely friends, it was looked at with suspicion. I wish I could remember more off the top of my head. The book was fascinating, but it was a ton of information that I didn't already know. I don't retain it that well after one read.

DancingMaenid · Jul 26, 2017

ElaineA said:
Am I the only one convinced he did not write those tweets? They sound like Pence, and, frankly, they're not deranged enough in construction for DJT to have written them. (Also the lack of ALL CAPS!) So that means this bombshell was planned, and never discussed with military leaders. The trust-circle around Trump is getting smaller and smaller by the day.

You know, I was wondering this, too. The tweets sound like Pence's rhetoric, they aren't incomprehensible, and the message is spread out across multiple tweets.

I confess I still don't fully understand what Trump has actually done, though. He spoke to "generals," but the Pentagon was in the dark about this? Tweeting about something doesn't create a policy--I want to know who he's working with on this and whether it's official.

Splendor · Jul 26, 2017

Teinz said:
The man is an asshat. But this move is effective in drawing away attention from the fact that millions of people are about to lose their healthcare. There's method in his asshattery.

Right, anything to deflect.

MaeZe · Jul 26, 2017

cornflake said:
Apparently the pentagon was caught unawares by this Pence/Bannon move (Mattis is on vacation; I wonder how much he regrets agreeing to this job) -- and McCain can go fuck himself, as always.

Re General Mattis' views:

Mattis in his confirmation hearing:

GILLIBRAND: “In your book, Warriors and Citizens and the interviews you did afterwards…you said in recent policy debates such as those about allowing homosexuals to serve openly…you believe that ‘the American public is not nearly as concerned as it should be that the changes to military policies are accruing risk to our forces. We fear that an uninformed public is permitting political leaders to impose an accretion of social conventions that are diminishing the combat power of our military disregarding our war-fighting practitioners advice.’ Do you believe that openly serving homosexuals along with women in combat units is undermining our force?”

MATTIS: “Senator, my belief is that we have to stay focused on a military that is so lethal that on the battlefield it will be the enemy’s longest day and their worst day when they run into that force. I believe that military service is a touchstone for patriots of whatever stripe. That’s simply the way they demonstrate their commitment and I believe right now the policies that are in effect unless a service chief brings something to me where there has been a problem that has been proven then I’m not going in with the idea that I’m going to review these and right away start rolling something back.”

GILLIBRAND: “Do you believe that allowing LGBT Americans to serve in the military or allowing women in combat is undermining our lethality?”

MATTIS: “Frankly, senator, I’ve never cared about two consenting adults and who they go to bed with.”

You never know how honest people are going to be in a confirmation hearing. But I would think Bannon and Pence are the anti-LGBTQ voices in the White House at the moment.

Edited to add: Upon further reading I believe there must also be pressure from top military brass.

MaeZe · Jul 26, 2017

DancingMaenid said:
...
I confess I still don't fully understand what Trump has actually done, though. He spoke to "generals," but the Pentagon was in the dark about this? Tweeting about something doesn't create a policy--I want to know who he's working with on this and whether it's official.

He hasn't technically done anything, the media keeps conflating the Tweet with an Executive Order.

On the other hand, the current military policy was set to accept transgendered recruits and it was delayed last month.

June 30th, WA Po: On eve of deadline, Pentagon delays plan to allow transgender recruits by 6 months

Defense Secretary Jim Mattis has delayed a plan approved by the Obama administration a year ago to begin allowing transgender recruits to join the U.S. military, providing the Joint Chiefs of Staff with a six-month reprieve that they requested, the Pentagon said Friday night.

The decision was made on the eve of a deadline set a year ago by then-Defense Secretary Ash Carter. The services can now delay processing transgender recruits until Jan. 1, following another review of accession plans and providing information about how doing so will affect the military and its lethality, Mattis said in a memo. Details about that review must be provided back to Mattis by Dec. 1.

Seems the Tweet caused more of a stir than the policy delay.

Twick · Jul 26, 2017

I think there's some double deflection here. Some of Trump's core support on the alt-right have been upset about his treatment of Sessions. This is a way of saying, "Yeah, I'm hanging your guy out to dry, but hey, I'm sticking to gays! Make up your mind what really matters here."

kkbe · Jul 26, 2017

Diana Hignutt said:
What about the 15,000 current trans service members? (Number from a tweet I just got from the ACLU) Surely, they might have legal standing?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...ving-transgender-troops/ar-AAoSkXo?li=BBnb7Kz

And the shitstorm continues...

MaeZe · Jul 26, 2017

And the pieces start fitting together:

Politico: Inside Trump’s snap decision to ban transgender troops
A congressional fight over sex reassignment surgery threatened funding for his border wall.

House Republicans were planning to pass a spending bill stacked with his campaign promises, including money to build his border wall with Mexico.

But an internal House Republican fight over transgender troops was threatening to blow up the bill. And House GOP insiders feared they might not have the votes to pass the legislation because defense hawks wanted a ban on Pentagon-funded sex reassignment operations — something GOP leaders wouldn’t give them.

They turned to Trump, who didn’t hesitate. In the flash of a tweet, he announced that transgender troops would be banned altogether.

Trump’s sudden decision was, in part, a last-ditch attempt to save a House proposal full of his campaign promises that was on the verge of defeat, numerous congressional and White House sources said.

Some Republican Congresswoman was on CNN this morning claiming that the reason to ban transgenders in the military was because their sex-change operations would cost too much. She cited some BS numbers. Blitzer called her on it, asking for the source. She BS'd some more and he kept pushing until she finally admitted someone in her office ran the numbers.

Maryn · Jul 26, 2017

I need to move to a cave. Who's coming with me?

rugcat · Jul 26, 2017

MaeZe said:
And the pieces start fitting together:

Politico: Inside Trump’s snap decision to ban transgender troops
A congressional fight over sex reassignment surgery threatened funding for his border wall.

Some Republican Congresswoman was on CNN this morning claiming that the reason to ban transgenders in the military was because their sex-change operations would cost too much. She cited some BS numbers. Blitzer called her on it, asking for the source. She BS'd some more and he kept pushing until she finally admitted someone in her office ran the numbers.

Several people have pointed out that the medical costs associated with transgender individuals are an order of magnitude less than what the military currently pays for Viagra and other ED drugs for retirees.

Apples and oranges, of course, but it does put the cost argument in perspective. And a bit ironic.

dolores haze · Jul 26, 2017

Tweeting edicts. Such a modern wannabee dictator. He's beyond loathsome.

James D. Macdonald · Jul 26, 2017

ElaineA said:
I do have some faith that Congress and the Generals won't allow this to become policy if they have any way to stop it.

Section 8 (Mentally unfit) is only one of the many classes of Admin (General) discharges. Convenience of the government is another and, I think, far more likely. General discharge under honorable circumstances is the fastest, easiest, least paperwork-intensive way for the military to tell someone to leave before their term of enlistment is over.

MaeZe · Jul 26, 2017

rugcat said:
Several people have pointed out that the medical costs associated with transgender individuals are an order of magnitude less than what the military currently pays for Viagra and other ED drugs for retirees.

Apples and oranges, of course, but it does put the cost argument in perspective. And a bit ironic.

It's not that the cost argument is valid, it isn't. The issue the article I cited was getting at was that a small group of GOP legislators were using this faux cost of surgery contrivance to advance their homophobic agenda. They threatened to insert a poison pill in the budget legislation and that in turn threatened Trump's border wall funding.

The same group is running this ad: We're running this ad in NY-23 to encourage people to tell @RepTomReed how they want the military to spend their tax $. Call 202-225-3161.

It shows an image and asks if you want your taxes going to transgenders or fighter jets.

nighttimer · Jul 26, 2017

Maryn said:
I need to move to a cave. Who's coming with me?

Not me. I ain't going nowhere. Kill all that noise. This is my futhamuckin country too. Read my lips. Or rather read Paul Robeson's:

“...my father was a slave, and my people died to build this country, and I am going to stay here, and have a part of it just like you. And no Fascist-minded people will drive me from it. Is that clear?”
--- Paul Robeson, testimony before the House Un-American Activities Committee, 6/12/56

You can only run so far so fast before you finally run out of places to run and when flight is no longer an option, you have to fight.

If Transgender Americans and those in sympathy with them run from this fight, where are they gonna take a stand? Isn't this one big enough to matter?

LeftyLucy · Jul 26, 2017

Fuck that guy and his swarm of bigots.

Unimportant · Jul 26, 2017

That trio of tweets sure didn't read like Trump wrote them. "Please" and "thank you"? Not a single spelling error?

- - - Updated - - -

Maryn said:
I need to move to a cave. Who's coming with me?

Come to New Zealand. Our caves have glowworms!

RightHoJeeves · Jul 26, 2017

How on Earth can anyone summon the energy to care if transgender people fight in the military? If they want to, go nuts, I say.

If banning a pretty small number of people from the military* counts as making America great again... well it just shows how hollow the argument is. It's just a bunch of stupid angry bigots.

* not to diminish the very real civil liberties issues with the decision, I just can't fathom how anyone cares about a couple thousand people in an Army of over a million people. Like is the average Trump voter in Raccoon's Foot, Alabama, saying "Yes! Finally! This problem that was affecting me has been solved!"

M Louise · Jul 26, 2017

Another cynical, sinister cruel distraction with terrible implications.

What gets me is not just how that most vulnerable of communities, trans people already in service, must be feeling, but the fears of openly LGBTI service people. You can't UNTELL your military superiors, medics, fellow soldiers and coworkers. You can't go back to hiding your identity ('Don't Ask, Don't Tell.') You came out of the closet because you believed it was safe to do so, that you were now protected by law, that acceptance would become a reality in the armed forces culture. Now, who knows?

MaeZe · Jul 26, 2017

I hope this bounces around the social media echo-chamber and the news tomorrow:

USA Today: Trump's Mar-a-Lago trips cost more than trans soldiers' health care

cornflake · Jul 27, 2017

Maryn said:
I need to move to a cave. Who's coming with me?

What kind of cave? Will there be a view? Will it have beds and water and toilets? Will there be Netflix? I'm down with firelight... also gloworms.

Caves are usually cool and damp, right? That sounds nice.

Diana Hignutt · Jul 27, 2017

nighttimer said:
Not me. I ain't going nowhere. Kill all that noise. This is my futhamuckin country too. Read my lips. Or rather read Paul Robeson's:

“...my father was a slave, and my people died to build this country, and I am going to stay here, and have a part of it just like you. And no Fascist-minded people will drive me from it. Is that clear?”
--- Paul Robeson, testimony before the House Un-American Activities Committee, 6/12/56

You can only run so far so fast before you finally run out of places to run and when flight is no longer an option, you have to fight.

If Transgender Americans and those in sympathy with them run from this fight, where are they gonna take a stand? Isn't this one big enough to matter?

You aren't wrong...but: I took a stand when I came out. I took a stand when I transitioned. I took a stand when I got my GRS. I took a stand when I appeared on national TV, radio, etc. (and got a hate campaign against me by the Traditional Values Coalition for my trouble), I took a stand when I got death threats for continuing to make media appearances. I take a goddamned stand every time I go out side. All trans people do. So, telling people whose very existence is taking a stand for personal freedom, who do it everywhere they go, every minute of every day that they need to take a stand here and now reads a little harsh and privileged. We fight for our freedom every minute of every day. Though, I appreciate your passion.

Is this the advice that people should have given to those killed in the Holocaust? Make your stand here and now in Germany in the 30s?

I honestly don't know what the answer is. I am leaving this country as soon as I can (when my dad dies) Not over this. I've been planning this long before this shit. I don't want my money going to blowing up people all over the world, maintaining the largest military empire the world has ever know. I've found a place that should be beyond the reach of the giant corporations that are ruining life on this planet for another decade or so. But, I'll still fight with words from afar if I survive this climate of hate we're enjoying thanks to the orange one and his supporters scapegoating us.

So, you're not wrong, but you're not right either. IMO.

shakeysix · Jul 27, 2017

Make America great again my ass! --s6

cbenoi1 · Jul 27, 2017

Oh great.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/26/politics/congress-transgender-policy/index.html

"Geez. Thanks!"

-cb

Trump to Ban Trans People from the Military

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

ElaineA

All about that action, boss.

Alpha Echo

I should be writing.

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!

Splendor

MaeZe

MaeZe

Twick

kkbe

Huh.

MaeZe

Maryn

At Sea

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

dolores haze

international guttersnipe

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

MaeZe

nighttimer

No Gods No Masters

LeftyLucy

Unimportant

No COVID yet. Still masking.

RightHoJeeves

M Louise

MaeZe

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Diana Hignutt

Very Tired

shakeysix

blue eyed floozy

cbenoi1