what counts as POC?

LeftyLucy

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I'll chime in to agree with some of the later responses in this thread - in both the activist and corporate spaces I inhabit in my day to day life, PoC refers to anyone who is non-White. It's a broad term used to generally refer to persons belonging to communities marginalized on the basis of skin tone. It's helpful in discussing the effects of systematic racism, which is a reality for most people in this country who are not White. I would disagree that it's a term used by White people who are afraid to say "Black." In my experience, White people who are afraid to say "Black" actually say things like, "er, um, uh, African-American???" like that. That said, if you're talking about a Black person, or the Black community specifically, then the preference is generally to say Black. (Same with Latinx, etc.)

Just to make this even more fun, in corporate lingo, People of Color is sometimes translated into "Talent of Color."

Also, the whole "we're all colors" thing? Just, no.
 
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Harlequin

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lol, my mother is sometimes still introduced as a Professor of Color at conferences, to her endless annoyance. Also her race is listed as Yellow on my birth certificate >.>

Right... but just to push the question a bit, there's not really a clear distinction where you start being white (urgh, that sounds so bleh, sorry). My youngest is blond (not sure how that happened) and both my kids are very fair, very western looking, and only a quarter asian so I'm guessing they will just pass as caucasian.

In my slinging days, Babywearers of Colour was and still is a thing, both a label and a community (and needless to say, I wasn't welcome in that group--I look too caucasian).

Anyway, stuff to muse on. And sorry, didn't mean to get people blocked >.>
 

Roxxsmom

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Person of color means nonwhite. Many of us use it as a term of solidarity to describe the shared racial struggles and marginalizations we face across many racial and ethnic identities. It can describe people with mixed backgrounds. I'm Native American. I'm also white. I identify as a woman of color.

I am no expert (and it's not for me to define), but this sums up my understanding.

I've been told that the term POC (or people of color) is confined to the US, or to North America mostly, but I don't know if this is true or not. I recently had to explain to a British friend why the term wasn't considered offensive (in the US) the way the older term "colored" is, but I'm not sure they really got it.

And I think that people of mixed heritage have every right to consider themselves POC if they wish to. Not that it's my call, and I know members of AW have voiced frustration with not knowing exactly where they fit in, or with being told by others that they're not legit.

I imagine that these issues and questions about where the line is for being a person of color, and of you or your loved ones being treated as if they don't really belong in either world, is something that could be definitely considered a lived experience for literary purposes. Whether you choose to incorporate that into your speculative fiction is entirely up to you, of course.
 
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LeftyLucy

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Right... but just to push the question a bit, there's not really a clear distinction where you start being white (urgh, that sounds so bleh, sorry). My youngest is blond (not sure how that happened) and both my kids are very fair, very western looking, and only a quarter asian so I'm guessing they will just pass as caucasian.

I have an employee who looks Caucasian. But her father is half Hispanic and she ticked "Hispanic" as well as "Caucasian" on her new hire forms. The company recently launched a new program to "nurture and grow the potential of our Talent of Color," and she was selected. When I told her, she paused for a long minute and went, "Uh... not that I'm not happy, but... am I a Person of Color?" LOL!
 

autumnleaf

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I've been told that the term POC (or people of color) is confined to the US, or to North America mostly, but I don't know if this is true or not. I recently had to explain to a British friend why the term wasn't considered offensive (in the US) the way the older term "colored" is, but I'm not sure they really got it.

FWIW, I've almost always heard the term in a North American context. The one exception was in an interview with British director Amma Asante, and it sounded rather awkward from her mouth, like she was consciously trying to use the correct term but it didn't come naturally to her. I think it would also seem strange in places where white people are in a minority (Africa, Asia, etc.) That's not to say it isn't a useful term, just maybe more limited in context than people realize.
 

escritora

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Interesting articles about Asian journalists and whether they are people of color: http://journalisms.theroot.com/asian-americans-and-race-it-s-complicated-1797375744

One said:

Asians have been granted “conditional whiteness.” I don’t think we are people of color if you ask the New York Times. When people talk about race and say “people of color,” they don’t mean Asians. . . . “people of color” have been black and Latino. I’ve been going to Asian masculinity forums. These guys seem to be concerned about their lack of identity. They know about the alt-right touting the idea of Western civilization. If I were black, I would have certain cultural touchstones. They have nothing [comparable, they think], so they go back to the death march of Bataan in World War II.

[The white nationalist group] Storm Front actually recruits Asian people. For a lot of
people it’s going to end up being very appealing. My story is coming out next week. I’m also doing a podcast. For a lot of people it’s going to end up being very appealing. My story is coming out next week. I’m also doing a podcast.
 
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Harlequin

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Okay, I would agree that we are not considered in the same.boat, but I think it's crap that this is seen as fine. There is plenty of aggression towards China from the west (not even counting many other places. And plenty of Asian people who get angry about it.

The railroad workers, the opium war, the taking of hong Kong and long history of trade exploitation, the boxer rebellion, the sacking of the Forbidden City...

And that without the fact that war atrocities in China barely garner a reaction. The same people who wring their hands at me over western wars seem puzzled as to why the rape if Nanjing was a big deal, or why Chinese should be anyway bothered that Japan still doesn't recognise adequately what it has done. The Indonesian riots some years back which saw mass violence and rape of the local Chinese population didn't even make american news.

Affirmative action actively locks out Asian people, or did in my. College days, dunno if it still does.

And my experience of the storm front crowd is sooo not acceptance. Asians are definitely regarded as lesser from what I can tell, Asian women are seen as the shitty option for beta males who can't get a real (white) woman... I wont go into their opinion of mixed race families or mixed race people.
 
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AW Admin

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For the purposes of this room, POC is inclusive of Asians.
For purposes of U.S. and other nations definitions of minority classes that meet affirmative action criteria, it's a lot more complicated than people realize.

Most Federal and State Affirmative Action programs are no longer allowed to consider race as a single qualifying status; economic and other issues (including age, veteran status, sex, disability, etc.) must considered, and in some jurisdictions and circumstances, they are considered first.
 

escritora

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Asians are POC in my book as well. Hope my post didn't imply otherwise. Simply sharing a link for discussion.
 

nighttimer

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Something about this thread makes my head hurt. :Headbang:
 

Snitchcat

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There is plenty of aggression towards China from the west (not even counting many other places. And plenty of Asian people who get angry about it.

Yup. Count me as one of the Chinese people who gets angry about it.

The railroad workers, the opium war, the taking of hong Kong and long history of trade exploitation, the boxer rebellion, the sacking of the Forbidden City...
Way too much to say about this and not coherent enough, especially about HK and its current state, as well as its sh*tty treatment. Nope, separate thread for this one. (Didn't start one; not going to.)

And that without the fact that war atrocities in China barely garner a reaction. The same people who wring their hands at me over western wars seem puzzled as to why the rape if Nanjing was a big deal, or why Chinese should be anyway bothered that Japan still doesn't recognise adequately what it has done. The Indonesian riots some years back which saw mass violence and rape of the local Chinese population didn't even make american news.

Still: :rant:

Affirmative action actively locks out Asian people, or did in my. College days, dunno if it still does.

It still does. Whenever "affirmative action" takes place, what I see in Western-dominated cultures, is emphasis on every other minority, except Chinese; the latter is still marginalised, and pushed aside. Consider that many of the top law students in the States are Chinese, but yet, how many of these graduands make it to top management in the law firms they work for? The stats are around somewhere; article citation and all that. (And I can't find the article; might have been linked via my FB feed. Will try to find it again later.) (Btw, I'm not using the term "Asian" 'cos pet peeve and actual geographic plus ethnicity reasons.)

And my experience of the storm front crowd is sooo not acceptance.

Absolutely true. It's one of the major reasons that those Chinese people who want to and can, return to China / HK. (Economic reasons acknowledged, but not the point here. :) )

Asians are definitely regarded as lesser from what I can tell, Asian women are seen as the shitty option for beta males who can't get a real (white) woman... I wont go into their opinion of mixed race families or mixed race people.

This is an interesting viewpoint. I'm not surprised by it, however. For me, personally, I've not encountered such an attitude and didn't realise it still existed. However, logically, why would this attitude have faded by now, since the other attitudes still persist?. But, wow... Ew!

Returning to the OP: Yes, to what everyone else has defined POC as: Non-white.

Also: Agreed that "POC" is a term used by America, almost exclusively. I don't hear it often (if at all, but granted my network doesn't include people who are familiar with such terms, usually) in the UK, or where White people are in the minority. If anything, the opposite is what I hear: "White devils" is still very much in use here, in HK (I cringe at that term and call out my friends who use it). Or the term "foreigner" is assigned to anyone not Chinese (not a great improvement over the former, but still better). The friendlier one is "Expat", meaning non-Chinese (mostly White people) who live and work in HK or China.

I can't say anything about terms used in, say, Japan or South Korea, etc. I believe Japan still uses "Gaijin" ("foreigner" or "outside person", aka, Non-Japanese; same as the Chinese, "wairen" or "oiyan").

Back to topic.

Good know that POC includes Asians. :)


P.S. I also need a cringe icon; do we have one? >,<