what counts as POC?

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
Sticky question I guess, but genuinely meant.

What 'counts' as being POC, and how much do you let people self define it?

I have this sense that I theoretically fit into that category, but in my head I'm almost completely western, culturally and mentally. I would feel disingenuous describing myself any other way, but that seems to baffle some people IRL.
 

Surtsey Ana

Banned
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Messages
36
Reaction score
3
Your question is a little bizarre. Maybe, it is a little ignorant. Possibly, it's a little thoughtless.

"People of Color"

Let's look at one demographic - "African-Americans". Typically these people were born in the USA, as were their parents, and grandparents. The majority of these people are descendants of slaves. Having been in the USA for 250/300 years I suspect these people to be "almost completely western, culturally and mentally."

I suspect Barack Obama and Morgan Freeman would be generally classified as "People of Color."

Dude, what colour is your skin?

(Michael Jackson may be an exception to my argument).
 
Last edited:

Cindyt

Gettin wiggy wit it
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
4,826
Reaction score
1,954
Location
The Sticks
Website
growingupwolf.blogspot.com
We're all different colors. Take me for instance. I'm white bread. One summer I baked brown as toast. Did that make me less than equal? Color does not matter. It's what you do with what's inside of you that counts in my book.
 
Last edited:

Euonymous

Sockpuppet
Banned
Joined
Jul 28, 2017
Messages
47
Reaction score
0
Location
In The Land Of Imagination
Just to be you know... me. Everyone is a POC as everyone is a colour. Whites a colour, so is brown, black, that luminescent colour Chinese people are... The fact is that there are no colourless/transparent people out there. :D
 

escritora

.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
2,995
Reaction score
616
We have the opposite problem. People are baffled in real life that I consider myself a POC. They expect a Puerto Rican to look a certain way. Personally, I don't think people get to choose whether they are POC. Either you are or you aren't. That said, some people don't like the term POC and choose not to describe themselves that way. Doesn't mean they aren't POC, though.

An analogy I hope works. I don't like to be labeled Latina or Latinx. I prefer Hispanic when Puerto Rican won't do. Doesn't mean I'm not Latina.
 

Surtsey Ana

Banned
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Messages
36
Reaction score
3
Here's where it gets complicated in the western world. "People of Colour" is a ridiculous expression created by white people. Although created as an attempt to be polite, the use of the term is extremely offensive. Effectively, you're saying I don't want to say 'black' because is somehow 'bad'.

"I saw a coloured man yesterday."
"What colour was he?"
"He was black."
"Oh, why didn't you say that then?"

Society is a little like laundry: all the whites go together, everything else is fast-coloureds.
 

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
I don't personally like the term, but it's been self-adopted by a lot of people I know. However I find it increasingly comes up in conversation in relation who is "real" or not, whether someoen is "enough" POC or not to comment on related issues, and so forth. I don't know whether it's appropriate or not for me to contribute to such discussions.

In relation to writing, where "POC" or "diversity" (meh) are--apparently--specifically sought in some cases, I have no idea if I "count" for whatever criterion any given agent or publisher is anticipating filling. I feel like a fraud trying to fit into that category; a kind of bargain-basement diversity token.
 
Last edited:

LJD

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 12, 2010
Messages
4,226
Reaction score
525
PoC is usually used to mean anyone who is not white. But, yeah, some of us are not so easily categorized that way. My father is white, but my mother was Chinese. (Both born in Canada.) Do I count? I usually count myself as PoC. To some people I look white...to some people it is quite obvious I am Asian. But it situations with lots of white people I generally feel "other" and that's how other people usually seem to see me, too. Within the romance community, I generally find myself relating more to PoC authors.

Anyway...I don't have a really good answer.
 

LJD

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 12, 2010
Messages
4,226
Reaction score
525
In relation to writing, where "POC" or "diversity" (meh) are--apparently--specifically sought in some cases, I have no idea if I "count" for whatever criterion any given agent or publisher is anticipating filling. I feel like a fraud trying to fit into that category; a kind of bargain-basement diversity token.

Publishers don't have quotas to fill. Some do seek out PoC authors, particularly those telling "own voices" stories, but they don't have quotas.

Also, for all the talk about encouraging diversity, a lot of it seems to be more talk than action. Some white people seem to think PoC have an advantage right now in publishing... I don't think that is true. The vast majority of authors published by major publishers in my genre are still white.

Sometimes I struggle with what counts as #ownvoices or not...you can see the thread I started here.
 

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
I have no idea what ownvoices means in practice, not helped by the steadfast refusal of agents to explain. I understand why they don't want to be rigid but I feel like it's too amorphous for me to grasp.

I don't mean quota (hence criterion) but a general trend of branching out.

I agree that it feels like mostly talk though. Especially in sff.
 

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
12,861
Reaction score
3,071
Location
Not where you last saw me.
First off, I'm not POC. But I've come to understand in a small way that skin color (white/not white) is only one factor in the lived experience of being POC. It seems to me that being POC is more multidimensional than that: Ethnicity and/or race, societal expectations and interactions, and institutional factors—among others, I'd suppose—all contribute to that lived experience. So, to me, that POC lived experience is what is meant by #ownvoices.
 

Shoeless

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
2,308
Reaction score
295
I'm a bit curious, Harlequin, what makes you think that you theoretically fit into the POC category?

As far as Own Voices narratives go, the simplest definition of it is when a person who is not white, ie, an ethnicity or minority, writes a story that incorporates or embraces their cultural heritage as a major component of the story. So for example, a white person writing a story about the "exotic Orient," and the mysterious art known as kung fu, that is taught by ninjas in the far off land of Tibet, where they speak Balinese, and the main character is a hero to the poor, backwards people there that need an upstanding Christian to save them from their savage but noble ways is not an Own Voices story.

On the other hand, a person from Singapore writing a horror story about a Straits Chinese mystic torn between fighting Malaysian demons on the rampage in nearby Johor Bahru while the country itself undergoes post WWII upheaval as the British unceremoniously abandon the city-state to its own devices after centuries of colonial rule, but she has a close, familiar relationship with some of the exiting British who simultaneously raised her with genuine love, but were dismissive of her native Straits culture... that would be considered an Own Voices story.

Own Voices is really just a willingness by publishers and agents to at least look at, and consider, works by another ethnicity other than white, about cultures, concerns, peoples and settings that are also an ethnicity other than white. So it's not really an issue of a quota to fill, so much as a theoretical mandate that "If your character isn't white, your setting isn't white and your themes and concerns aren't white, don't think that's a barrier that will stop you from getting published." I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

I would definitely fall under the category of person of color, and for a while, when I was much younger, it did have an effect on my writing. It's probably an age thing, I'm Generation X, which puts me in my 40s now. When I was younger, being a minority definitely had an influence on my writing. When I was first learning to write during the 90s, I wrote only white characters in American settings, because I'd been raised to believe that that was "real" storytelling, and if I wrote about Asian characters--or at least ones that weren't ninjas or kung fu masters--there would be no market for it, because unless it had to do with that cool martial arts stuff, Asian characters and setting were "too ethnic." That had a really profound effect on my narrative choices for years. I'm just glad now that we're finally at a point in publishing where people who make decisions are actually willing to say, "The door's not closed on this story if it's not about white people and white concerns."

So while the Own Voices movement might seem threatening to some, or a a PC move with quota others. To some writers, this merely gives them permission to write about things they are, such as being Asian, African, or First Nations, and be judged on the merits of the writing, rather than telling them, if they have writing talent, to write about things they aren't. IE, white, with white themes and settings.
 

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
@shoeless, I' m mixed.

Yes i understand it for contemporary lit, but the majority of stories I like to write don't feature humans at all so in that context I don't think I meet own voices by default. Not that it matters, in a metaphysical sense, but I don't know when I should be excluding myself from some submissions, or wider RL conversations.
 

escritora

.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
2,995
Reaction score
616
Maybe I'm dense, but I don't understand the issue from a publishing perspective. Meaning whether or not you should submit to places asking for POC. Can you elaborate?
 

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
apologies, I didn't mean to make it about writing specifically--more interested in a broader context.

but in answer to your question, as an example, a number of agents want you to specify if your submission is an ownvoices one, and in some few cases they are only accepting ownvoices. There's no clear guidelines for who or what counts.
 

Anna Iguana

reading all the things
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
925
Reaction score
219
Location
US
Harlequin, this doesn't address all of your question, but here's a recent Twitter thread by Corinne Duyvis, the person who created the #ownvoices hashtag. Corinne talks about how the phrase was intended and how it is being used and perhaps misused.
 

escritora

.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
2,995
Reaction score
616
Piggybacking on Anna's post. I googled Corinne and came across this. Corinne's perspective is interesting.

And “a” marginalized identity, not “all.” Sometimes a character will be part of a group the author isn’t. For example: a straight Cuban author writing a lesbian Cuban protagonist. As long as there’s another marginalized aspect of their identity they do share, it’s #ownvoices. (I have more on this further down.)

This is what she says further down

Q: If my character and I share one type of identity, but the character is also marginalized in ways that I’m not, wouldn’t it be misleading to call it #ownvoices?Depends on how you frame it.
• Awesome Book features a Chinese-American trans girl! #ownvoices
• Check out Awesome Book—it’s got an #ownvoices trans girl lead!
• Awesome Book features a Chinese-American trans girl—trans aspect is #ownvoices!
See the difference between the first one and the other two?
Basically, just be specific and be clear.
 

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
38,197
Reaction score
4,544
Location
The End of the World
Person of color means nonwhite. Many of us use it as a term of solidarity to describe the shared racial struggles and marginalizations we face across many racial and ethnic identities. It can describe people with mixed backgrounds. I'm Native American. I'm also white. I identify as a woman of color.

#ownvoices isn't only about race. It describes writing characters who share your marginalized identities. That could include being PoC, LGBTQ, disabled, etc.
 
Last edited:

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
Many thanks for the links, all.

I definitely don't count, then, because I tend to only write secondary world and nonhuman. The general discrimination they encounter is therefore disconnected from what occurs in the real world. anyway, good to know!
 

escritora

.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
2,995
Reaction score
616
For clarification, if there's a call for POC or diversity writers you do qualify. Own voice is a different matter.
 

Anna Iguana

reading all the things
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
925
Reaction score
219
Location
US
+1 to both of escritora's posts. Harlequin, drawing from what escritora posted in her first post, I might go further. I'm neither an agent nor a person of color, but I am a person with some aspects of her identity marginalized, who writes work that can be described as #ownvoices. Were I an agent seeking #ownvoices manuscripts, I'd be interested if someone sent me a query that said something like, "I'm writing about discrimination in a secondary-world setting, drawing from my experiences as a person of color."*

It seems like being specific about what you're writing from your own experience, in an SFF manuscript, is the key. (That is, it sounds wrong, to me, to say that no speculative fiction with humanoid-but-not-human characters can ever be #ownvoices; but I'm prepared to be overruled.)



*Or as a person who identifies as mixed, or as a person who identifies with/is a member of another marginalized group.
 
Last edited:

escritora

.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
2,995
Reaction score
616
+1 to both of escritora's posts. Harlequin, drawing from what escritora posted in her first post, I might go further. I'm neither an agent nor a person of color, but I am a person with some aspects of her identity marginalized, who writes work that can be described as #ownvoices. Were I an agent seeking #ownvoices manuscripts, I'd be interested if someone sent me a query that said something like, "I'm writing about discrimination in a secondary-world setting, drawing from my experiences as a person of color."*

*Or as a person who identifies as mixed, or as a person who identifies with/is a member of another marginalized group.

Oh, yes, that does make sense. Huh, Harlequin is right. It is complicated!
 

AW Admin

Administrator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
18,772
Reaction score
6,286
Here's where it gets complicated in the western world. "People of Colour" is a ridiculous expression created by white people. Although created as an attempt to be polite, the use of the term is extremely offensive. Effectively, you're saying I don't want to say 'black' because is somehow 'bad'.

"I saw a coloured man yesterday."
"What colour was he?"
"He was black."
"Oh, why didn't you say that then?"

Society is a little like laundry: all the whites go together, everything else is fast-coloureds.

I don't care how you identify yourself to other people, but you don't get to control how other people refer to themselves.

Also, you're an idiot for not reading the stickies.

Go away and Never Come Back.
 

AW Admin

Administrator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
18,772
Reaction score
6,286
Just to be you know... me. Everyone is a POC as everyone is a colour. Whites a colour, so is brown, black, that luminescent colour Chinese people are... The fact is that there are no colourless/transparent people out there. :D

You didn't read the stickies. You get blocked.