Think I made a mistake by attempting a genre-mash up - no idea how to fix it now…

weekendwarrior

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 29, 2017
Messages
53
Reaction score
2
Hey guys,

I was recently reading Perennial Seller by Ryan Holiday where he discourages writing any sort of genre-mashups. His basic argument is that if you’re writing a genre mash up, you’re essentially cutting down your potential audience. If, as in my case, you’re writing a spy story with supernatural elements, you’re not reaching readers of spy fiction and supernatural fiction, you’re most likely only reaching a much smaller subset of readers who read both.

I think there’s lots of exception to this rule but I’ve realised it's a major flaw in how my story works. Essentially, my elevator pitch has always been "John le Carre* writes the X-Men" (which according to Holiday is already a flawed way to think about it). And when you think about it, how many le Carre readers are into the X-Men and vice versa?

The le Carre component boils down to:
- the characters (except the MC) are flawed, washed up spies
- there is a lot of direct and incidental backstory that relates to the Cold War/Soviet Union/etc.. In some cases, this works to directly explain characters motivations or backgrounds
- the story structure relies on a lot of dialogue and intelligence work, rather than action (unlike the James Bond-type spy story)

The X-Men component has to do with:
- the MC, a young girl, has the supernatural ability that's a variation on mind reading
- there are other characters in the story with supernatural elements (though they do not feature heavily in the story) and I’m even considering tying this in with historical characters said to possess powers

The story itself is a variation of the protector/child trope (think Logan, Stephen King’s Firestarter, etc) and follows the girl as she tries to evade a wealthy Russian oligarch/ex-KGB spy with the help of a good guy spy who has gone rogue.

Now, I can’t cut either component out entirely as the story falls apart if I did (and to be honest, I don’t want to either) but writing about Soviet era defectors and kids with super-powers in one sentence seems too much of a stretch. I think I need to find a way for these to worlds to come together better so it appeals better to either of the groups (or both).

I know I’m new here and there isn’t a whole lot to work just off of in this post, but any ideas/suggestions/strategies? Anybody read anything that helps figure out this kind of problem?

Any help would be hugely appreciated!


*I am under no illusions that I can write anywhere near le Carre’s level :)
 

divine-intestine

Hardened drinker
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Messages
131
Reaction score
6
Location
The Big Smoke
I think it's better you focus on telling the story you want to tell to the best of your ability without worrying too much what others have to say about it. Yes, a portion of genre audience might theoretically disappear but you'll gain others. You don't need to be Le Carre to tell a good story nor do you have to write like him. These are issues that might arise in the query process (if you're aiming at a traditional publication), but as long as you know your story and its themes then it should be fine.
 

Fruitbat

.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
11,833
Reaction score
1,310
I think you should disregard any general marketing advice right now, stick with your original vision and finish the novel that's in your mind. :)
 

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
13,071
Reaction score
4,668
Location
USA
Website
brightdreamersbookreviews.blogspot.com
If you want help on specifics, maybe port this one over to the Brainstorming subforum; it's password protected, so it's a little more private.

In general, though, I think a successful mash-up requires the author to understand all the genres they're mashing up sufficiently to mix the ingredients properly. (Does it make it harder? Yes. Does it mean you'll have no audience? Hardly, though you will lose "purists" who read very narrowly in a specific genre/subgenre, and it may present challenges in the query and marketing stages. I know of few people who aren't willing to stretch boundaries a bit if they're sufficiently intrigued by a story... especially on the specfic side of things. Pitch to the SF element, and you'll probably find a receptive audience.) If you're having trouble stitching the elements together, maybe you need to adjust your mix. Is it more SF/"X-men" than spy, or more spy than SF?

Overall, don't be discouraged from trying this just because someone said it would be tough. If you believe in this story (and, skimming it, it seems like it could work to me - an alt-reality twist on the spy genre), then go for it. All else fails, you learn something to apply to the next writing challenge.
 

Carrie in PA

Write All The Words!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Messages
1,942
Reaction score
1,078
Location
in my own little world
Meh. Just tell your story. For every article you find telling you genre mashups are bad, you can find an opposing one in support of the practice. In many interviews, Dean Koontz has talked about how early in his career he was told repeatedly not to mix genres, but he kept telling his stories his way, and seems to have done okay.

Don't let a marketing concern stall your progress on your book. What if you never finish it, and in 5 years supernatural spy stories are all the rage?
 

CLEasterwood

Registered
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Messages
23
Reaction score
0
Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
I have to agree. I wouldn't change my story to suit one person's opinion. Write your story the way you want to write it. You never know, it may be a mashup, but that doesn't mean it won't sell well. Everyone has an opinion, and it's not always a good one.
 

Mary Mitchell

Go down road, go pub.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
Messages
1,697
Reaction score
174
Location
Ontario Canada

sideshowdarb

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 15, 2017
Messages
352
Reaction score
73
Definitely echo what everyone has said - write what you want to write. The advice you referred to on mash-ups seems to be from someone geared toward selling and not writing. Also, it's not particularly good advice on selling your work. Have fun with your book! Sounds interesting.
 
Last edited:

PyriteFool

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 11, 2016
Messages
370
Reaction score
75
Honestly, this mashup doesn't sound like too much of a stretch to me. I agree that one should be very familiar with the genres in question, but intellectual spy thriller seems like it would go very well with SF/X-men type deal. There's a lot of common ground. And the idea that you will only attract readers that read BOTH spy fiction and SFF seems off to me. What if I'm an SFF reader, so I pick up your book and then discover 'Hey, this spy stuff is pretty neat, maybe I'll look for more of that.' Then you're book has exposed me to a new genre, thus earning my goodwill as a reader. Heck, genre mashups can even become genre's in and of themselves (like noir+fantasy=urban fantasy).

I feel like readers don't usually fit nicely into genre boxes. I could be totally wrong on that, since I know nothing about book marketing, but that is my instinct.
 

CathleenT

I write
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
5,097
Reaction score
1,981
Location
Northern California
Tim Powers did the same thing brilliantly in Declare, but he already had an audience. I think you should finish writing/editing the story. At that point, you may wish to delay publication until you've built your own audience. Writers who've already accomplished this have a lot more leeway. So, in marketing terms, this may be a book that keeps your audience or stretches it, but it may be unlikely to build one.

That's okay. I've written eleven books, and I'm still futzing over publishing order. (And editing.) The story has grabbed you, and I think the best bet is usually to finish it. There's something there that you want to say. You can always write your debut later.
 

Odile_Blud

-_-
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
309
Reaction score
31
Location
A cave. (I power the internet with my imagination)
If your goal is strictly to publish and have lots of readers, then I suppose he's on to something, but if you write because you like to tell stories, I encourage you to write what you want. Thing is, if you like it, chances are someone else likes it too. There's a market for everything. And I mean really, if not, then experimental and bizarro would not stand a chance.

I guess, in the end, it all depends on what you want out of your writing and what your goal is, but my advice is to go with what you want to do. One guy's opinion doesn't really mean anything.
 
Last edited:

ironmikezero

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 8, 2011
Messages
1,740
Reaction score
430
Location
Haunted Louisiana
I'm sure you've noticed the encouragement force is strong here . . .

I really enjoy mash-ups since they often deliver a double-dose of creativity. Write your story as inspired by your inner muse--full speed ahead and damn the opinion torpedoes of critics and self-annointed pundits. Opinions are like . . . er, well you know. Never let another's perspective shackle your imagination. Please yourself first; if when released into the world, the tale generates sales, so much the better . . . if not, you've still birthed a story that has satisfied yourself and your muse. Creativity can be its own reward.
 

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,128
Reaction score
10,899
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
I've certainly seen statements by agents who say that they're looking for genre-bending and genre-blending work, so there must be some market for it.

I've certainly run across plenty of stuff that's shelved with fantasy that also first the general requirements for a thriller, genre romance, or mystery. I don't read the first and last of these three other genres that often, but if a story hits my "cool zone" in terms of world building and characterization, fantasy stories incorporating these kinds of plot elements can be a refreshing departure from stories about dark armies massing on the borders of fantasy realms.

Galbadon's Outlander series is a huge bestseller, and it blends elements of historical fiction and romance with time-travel fantasy. Of course, fantasy and romance are each often blended with HF, so maybe it's not a stretch to combine all three.

Maybe fans of different genres are more receptive of blends than others.
 
Last edited:

MisterFrancis

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
268
Reaction score
59
Location
UK
Winter Soldier was basically a Cold War thriller with superheroes. It worked.
 

Hbooks

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 18, 2011
Messages
558
Reaction score
72
Practically every sci-fi book I've read recently has blended with some other genre. I would write it and then figure out what clever way to pitch it to agents once you're done.
 

Nerdilydone

Banned
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
618
Reaction score
67
Location
...
Mash-ups are fine, so long as they aren't some clumsy, ill-conceived ideas just to appeal to people who don't think about it deeply ("It's Ghostbusters meets Star Wars!"). The key here is knowing what side your story falls more firmly on. For example, Cowboy Bebop is Japanese philosophy meets Western cowboy stuff, but generally all the Western stuff is there only to prop up the philosophy.

So I guess mash-ups are a problem when the two halves are equal, and the story is trying to be two different things at the same time, when it really should just be one thing with a different flavor added.
 

MisterFrancis

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
268
Reaction score
59
Location
UK
It's Ghostbusters meets Star Wars

Would definitely buy this.

BAGSY THIS IDEA.
 

gbondoni

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 12, 2016
Messages
95
Reaction score
9
Location
Buenos Aires
As many have mentioned above, there's a long tradition of mixing genres, especially where SFF is concerned. Everything from Asimov's robot series (SF+Traditional mystery) to the aforementioned Crichton and Koontz do it. My personal favorite is Glen Cook's Garret series (Hard Boiled Detective + secondary world fantasy, brilliantly done). So have at it!
 

weekendwarrior

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 29, 2017
Messages
53
Reaction score
2
Thanks guys - this is hugely encouraging! And apologies for not writing back earlier - on top of my day job, I managed to get quite sick last week. All better now and looking forward to doing some more writing over the weekend.

I'm going to have a read through all of the examples you guys mentioned to see how these authors manage that tight rope. While recovering I finished King's Firestarter and I was not a huge fan - part of that came down to the fact that neither world seemed 'real'. I don't mean that I expected the supernatural to be believable but more that every time one world intruded on the other, they clashed and the suspension of disbelief required vanished: the girl didn't seem realistic in her reactions to this world of spies and superpowers, and the world of spies seemed to need to dumb down considerably (and unnecessarily) to work on the girls level.

So my main worry was not necessarily that a mash up won't sell (it's still too early days in my nascent aspirations as a writer for me to worry about that - though it is always a consideration) but more that the story hangs together cohesively so it's enjoyable to read. And you guys are right: there's definitely good examples of this working - primarily where it's "one thing with a different flavour added." I think that's probably the guiding principle: set it in the soviet era spy world and throw a few supernaturals things in to make it different.

Back to it!
 

andiwrite

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 9, 2012
Messages
1,482
Reaction score
140
Location
In constant transit
ALL of my stories are genre mashups! LOL I'd be screwed if I believed that advice (and I don't).

I definitely think you're way overthinking it. Write an awesome story. It sounds like you're on the right track now. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, keep finding beta readers until you figure out what isn't working. Good luck!