So that usual cliche of having catchy quotes or whatever at the start of a SFF chapter. Do you think it's jarring in the context of a fantasy novel to include some quotations which are nonfiction or 'real life'?
Nonfiction references in fantasy
- Thread starter Harlequin
- Start date
Depends on what you're going for, and how you execute it. A chapter-starting quote should adhere to the same rules as any other part of the chapter: it should contribute to the story or face the editorial axe. (I believe it goes without saying that you should also know you have permission to use the quote in question - copyright issues and such...)
If you're going for full secondary-world immersion, it might be a bit jarring to suddenly refer back to reality at the start of each chapter. Creating in-world quote sources, though, can be tricky without coming across as clunky, or shortcut attempts to create a mood (intrigue or humor or what-have-you.) In the tongue-in-cheek The Tough Guide to Fantasyland (Diana Wynne Jones), these are called "Gnomic Utterances," a ribbing of the overuse of chapter-starting quotes that weren't nearly so pithy or relevant as the author thought. That's not to say they can't work - I've seen them work, myself, in everything from fantasy to romance - just that they have to do more than sound Cool or Profound. They have to fit, as seamlessly as any other cog in your story's machinery.
Incidentally, Tad Williams used real-world quote sources in his debut feline fantasy, Tailchaser's Song. He made the bestseller list with it, so it clearly didn't hurt sales, but that was also in the 1980's. He later used chapter-starting quotes and snippets in his near-future SF quartet Otherland, only this time he used bits from his invented future's Net, pieces of entertainment and newsfeeds and such that helped create a sense of a full-fledged world, as well as build tension. (The quotes also sometimes built on themselves; most notable was the way in which a silly sitcom jumped the shark to become a clunky drama.) Over the years, I found the quotes in TS to age worse than the ones on Otherland... again, though, that's JMHO.
If you're going for full secondary-world immersion, it might be a bit jarring to suddenly refer back to reality at the start of each chapter. Creating in-world quote sources, though, can be tricky without coming across as clunky, or shortcut attempts to create a mood (intrigue or humor or what-have-you.) In the tongue-in-cheek The Tough Guide to Fantasyland (Diana Wynne Jones), these are called "Gnomic Utterances," a ribbing of the overuse of chapter-starting quotes that weren't nearly so pithy or relevant as the author thought. That's not to say they can't work - I've seen them work, myself, in everything from fantasy to romance - just that they have to do more than sound Cool or Profound. They have to fit, as seamlessly as any other cog in your story's machinery.
Incidentally, Tad Williams used real-world quote sources in his debut feline fantasy, Tailchaser's Song. He made the bestseller list with it, so it clearly didn't hurt sales, but that was also in the 1980's. He later used chapter-starting quotes and snippets in his near-future SF quartet Otherland, only this time he used bits from his invented future's Net, pieces of entertainment and newsfeeds and such that helped create a sense of a full-fledged world, as well as build tension. (The quotes also sometimes built on themselves; most notable was the way in which a silly sitcom jumped the shark to become a clunky drama.) Over the years, I found the quotes in TS to age worse than the ones on Otherland... again, though, that's JMHO.
Can't see why it couldn't work. It's not really any different than referring to a real locality or historical event in a Fantasy novel, and Philip Pullman does this very well.
caw
caw
They're public domain (original speakers or writers long long long dead.)
I didn't even notice Pullman did that, I'll have to reread. Doesn't the girl end up in our world though?
I just don't think I have anywhere near the elegant turn of phrase as the ones I'm cribbing.
I didn't even notice Pullman did that, I'll have to reread. Doesn't the girl end up in our world though?
I just don't think I have anywhere near the elegant turn of phrase as the ones I'm cribbing.
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2005
- Messages
- 2,995
- Reaction score
- 606
- Location
- Central Maryland
- Website
- www.richardcwhite.com
Robert Asprin used to do that for his "Aahz and Skeeve" books (Myth Adventures). However, he took real people and assigned them false quotes (or modified quotes) that would match the tone of the upcoming chapter.
It depends, if you’re fantasy is not earth based, with say creatures of your own contrivance; I suspect it could jar a reader from your world back to ours. I try not to use earth-specific inserts; such as, he was another Adolf Hitler or the shark-like creature ripped the flesh from his leg.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2012
- Messages
- 16,171
- Reaction score
- 3,734
Be careful then where you get the quotes and things. Like many things in the public domain, each version published, is not.
It's secondary world but it's not quotes in text. I mean the pretentious kind that head chapters ;-)
Apologies cornflake, but I don't follow what you mean in second sentence *is lost*
It's primarily very dead poets and some very dead old thinkers.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2014
- Messages
- 2,449
- Reaction score
- 1,505
Are the non-fiction books/quote in-universe or not? I have no problem with the former (see references to Oolon Colluphid's blockbuster trilogy: Where God Went Wrong, Some Of God's Greatest Mistakes, and Who Is This God Person, Anyway?). Might be put off by the latter, but it would depend on how you're mixing the two realities. Like any chapter quote, if I can see why you're doing it, it works, at least for me.
So if I take one of Shakespeare's plays and publish it, I own the copyright to that specific publication of it, including any editing I may have done on it.
So if you're just pulling quotes off the Internet, be mindful of their source. Often, they're cribbed from one of the larger anthologies which are editing and, where necessary, translated a certain way. Using those versions may be a problem.
End point: know your sources, and consult a lawyer if in any doubt.
Both; some are withib ms universe and some are real world, but they're not hugely intrusive for any of them. I just prefer it to gratuitous chapter-heading infodumps.
Right, with you now re source. That alone is enough to put me off doing it, though. Far too much hassle. They come out of books from my shelf so I'd have to check.
Right, with you now re source. That alone is enough to put me off doing it, though. Far too much hassle. They come out of books from my shelf so I'd have to check.
She starts out in our world, or a slightly twisted facsimile of it. Early on she goes to London, and there are many real specific locales and details. Point is, Pullman didn't invent an entirely new world, and I think that decision served his purpose well. I haven't finished reading Compass yet, but I intend to complete the trilogy.
caw
Well, it's been suggested to me that it can be jarring for some, but *to me* I don't see a difference between that and chapter titles which are a reference (oblique or otherwise) to real world concepts, and that seems a fairly common thing to do.
As an aside, I never read past the first Pullman because I'm less interested in our world re fantasy >.> SF and literary are different. I don't tend to read portals at all for that reason, Thomas Covenant excepting.
As an aside, I never read past the first Pullman because I'm less interested in our world re fantasy >.> SF and literary are different. I don't tend to read portals at all for that reason, Thomas Covenant excepting.
Count me among the members who would find it jarring in a secondary world, but perfectly fine in a world based on ours.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2014
- Messages
- 2,449
- Reaction score
- 1,505
I don't love having both real and in-universe references mixed. To me it raises the question of where you draw the fourth wall for this story, which could be an interesting question if you're playing with it in some way--e.g., who's "writing" the book? who decides to include these references?--but if it's just a kind of authorial fancy then, for me, it's too much of you showing through in a way that doesn't contribute to the narrative. All of this with the caveat that some people will be jarred out by anything you do and it is ultimately your call whether it "works" or not.
At least as I'm understanding this, these epigraphs are distinct from chapter titles. A chapter title is more inherently meta because titles are often an interpretive clue, and are understood as chosen by the author. After the title, things are a bit more fluid. Dedications, epigraphs, quotes can all be clearly in-universe, outside the fourth wall, or even both if, again, it's done in a way that makes it make sense.
In general, with chapter epigraphs, don't use them gratuitously. If it really adds to the story tonally, fine. Otherwise I've always found it looks a bit indulgent.
As for the sourcing, the best way to check is to take the text you have and then use your copy's index or bibliography to find the original text as written by the author. Libraries, particularly academic ones, will have these things. It does take a little work, yes.
At least as I'm understanding this, these epigraphs are distinct from chapter titles. A chapter title is more inherently meta because titles are often an interpretive clue, and are understood as chosen by the author. After the title, things are a bit more fluid. Dedications, epigraphs, quotes can all be clearly in-universe, outside the fourth wall, or even both if, again, it's done in a way that makes it make sense.
In general, with chapter epigraphs, don't use them gratuitously. If it really adds to the story tonally, fine. Otherwise I've always found it looks a bit indulgent.
As for the sourcing, the best way to check is to take the text you have and then use your copy's index or bibliography to find the original text as written by the author. Libraries, particularly academic ones, will have these things. It does take a little work, yes.
I suppose in the context of being meta, chapter titles must be "from" the universe if first person? I dunno.
I do try to be wary of indulgence, but good intentions and hell, etc >.< There's a little bit of fourth wall element but not really enough to bear mention.
Responses are mixed from the many betas. In a bid to be less jarring, the references are footnoted rather than cited directly. But I sometimes wonder where I'd be better stripping all of it out (chapter titles, epigraphs, etc) and paring back amap.
So far, I've left them in on the (dangerous, no doubt) assumption they won't be sufficient to earn me rejections on their own.
I do try to be wary of indulgence, but good intentions and hell, etc >.< There's a little bit of fourth wall element but not really enough to bear mention.
Responses are mixed from the many betas. In a bid to be less jarring, the references are footnoted rather than cited directly. But I sometimes wonder where I'd be better stripping all of it out (chapter titles, epigraphs, etc) and paring back amap.
So far, I've left them in on the (dangerous, no doubt) assumption they won't be sufficient to earn me rejections on their own.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2014
- Messages
- 2,449
- Reaction score
- 1,505
They're unlikely to earn you rejections on their own. Any good acquisitions editor is going to be looking at the story as a whole, and at the quality of the writing. Those matter. Chapter titles and epigraphs can be fixed very quickly and easily.
I don't like the idea of footnotes in fiction. They just distract. If you're going to need to clutter up the MS in order to have these in, is it worth it?
But I'm only one person. And it's your choice in the end. Leave 'em in and work it out in future if you don't want to make the decision now.
I don't like the idea of footnotes in fiction. They just distract. If you're going to need to clutter up the MS in order to have these in, is it worth it?
But I'm only one person. And it's your choice in the end. Leave 'em in and work it out in future if you don't want to make the decision now.