Uploading and the Teleportation Problem

Dennis E. Taylor

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Ha! Very true. I guess what I was getting at is a lot of science fiction authors tend to have very little patience for organized religion, and tend to assume that's the response for ALL the faithful. Or that could just be Richard K Morgan for ya.

Well, to be candid, I personally have very little patience with organized religion. And I say that having come from a background of same. But having come from that background, I know that they contain all kinds of people with all ranges of opinions. But, like I said, it's the loud and radical that generally set the public perception.
 

gbondoni

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The loud and the angrily radical are usually more interesting for story purposes, too. I'm pretty sure most SF writers don't want to perpetuate a stereotype but they also know that loud, angry and radical groups exist and will make themselves felt, so they use them in the story. The quiet majority is not as interesting to most readers, which may explain why it's underrepresented in genre fiction.
 

Kjbartolotta

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Fair points both. My point regarding uploading was probably that not every who's against is guaranteed to be a religious extremist. To Dennis, from looking over your Bobbiverse (which I swear I'm gonna read soon. Promise!), is it fair to say this issue is touched upon? I know Bob being property of the fundy church-state is an early plot point. I have no problem with religious extremists being depicted as such, and, yes, they tend to suck up a lot of oxygen. I never went, but I grew up a mile away from Rick Warren's megachurch in OC, so I have experience with this too. But from a writing perspective, it gets a bit boring when a 100 percent of the faithful are all depicted as lockstep anti-science, and vis-a-vis uploading, it obscures the issue that there's still a lot of scary stuff going on there.

I would love to see story depict a pro-science, humanistic religion that's anti-uploading (YMMV if they're the hero or the villain), as well as a fundamentalist, schismatic sect of a major religion that's ok with uploading. In fact, there's a fun mini-project for myself today.
 

badducky

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James PatrickKelly's "Think Like a Dinosaur" deals with some aspects of this issue. (Not, as I recall, from a body-horror perspective.)

When I wrote my latest science fiction novel, I was inspired a lot by how this classic Kelly story dealt with some aspects of intergalactic colonization via long-distance cloning. There is one aspect of the story that I thought, in retrospect, seemed odd in a universe of plenty, and I prefer not to spoil it. But, the story succeeds by making that a cultural preference, not a material necessity, so it works in the Kelly-created universe.

Accelerando by Charles Stross deals directly with a couple variations on the transition of humanity into an uploaded piece of software, not a material body, and does it in a couple interesting ways, including storing the software on a collective group of human minds and changing forms and uplifting animals and AI into full sentience via uploaded consciousness technology. Few books explore the implications as widely in one text as Accelerando.

Good luck!
 

Kjbartolotta

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Since I said I was gonna do it, I've kitbashed together some conreligions to reflect differing attitudes towards uploading. These are all set within the context of my Moonbirdiverse (yay concatenation), so think far future mythic space opera. I've tried to base the religion on three factors; is the religion for or against uploading, is the religion forward-thinking and progressive or orthodox and conservative, and is the religion good or evil.

tl;dr, this is just a big long wank sesh, but I tried to explore how uploading (if possible) would become a major focal point of religion, and differing attitudes would develop for a wide variety of reasons.

The Blue Light Assembly

Coalesced from innumerable pan-and-monotheistic traditions, the Blue Light Assembly has long since answered the question of the soul to it's own satisfaction. There is only one soul, transcendent and indivisible, but also spread out through limitless emanation. You, as part of that indivisible omni-soul, cannot neither be destroyed or negated, so uploading your mind to a computer is neither good nor bad in of itself, just the divine universe interacting with itself again (as is everything else that ever happens). Since the Assembly tends to be technophiliac and plans on geological timescales, uploading is pretty much mandatory, though not official doctrine. What is official doctrine is ethical uploading, and the Assembly is very keen to stick it's olfactory analog device in every issue on the subject, from the hardware to political concerns to psychological and spiritual council, to make sure the whole human is transferred in the process, and in the right and spiritual way desired.

The Pediment of the Self

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of law. While the Pediment draws a distance between itself and long-perished 'Objectivity Religions', make no mistake about it, this faith is in it for number one. Spiritual matters don't concern the faith, practitioners espouse everything from atheism to Revivalist Cthuluism and worse, and don't really care what their co-religionists think. It's all about the day, and how you're going to seize it. To this way of thinking, uploading is simply a practical matter, and the Pediment thinks it could not be more reasonable in it's attitudes. In truth, there's some pretty icky master/slave stuff going on between copies. This is entirely expected, and codified to the point of banality. What's also expected is turnabout, and since fair play is an important concept, the idea of individual copies merrily killing and torturing each other in a game of one-upsmanship for eternity is a pretty pleasant one.

The Still Pond Tendency

If you have everything, do you still want the impossible? Is that maybe, not a good idea? The Still Pond Tendency is not a religion, or a lifestyle, or even a way of thinking. It is simply series of dialogues, ongoing, about what is best in life and how to go about attaining it. Officially agnostic, the Still Pond is actually near-Confucian in its rules and precepts for living, and in all it's teachings it stresses harmony, cultivation of knowledge, and self-control. The self is viewed as something turbulent, chaotic and formless, coming increasingly into order and definition through will, appreciation of beauty, good works and etc. Uploading before true attainment is achieved only increases that turbulence, often catastrophically, and since there is no such thing as true attainment, there is no right time for uploading. The Still Pond also preaches a stoic acceptance of death, which is often viewed as ghastly in a civilization of immortals, but since it remains very hard to die even without uploading, the point is often moot.

The Shadowless

Don't you know the universe is a lie? You're a lie, I'm a lie, everything I'm telling you is a lie. The Shadowless exemplify the very worst forms of forms gnosticism, where nothing is true and nothing can be given purpose. Both messianic and self-hating, the Shadowless view the universe as a blasphemy, and themselves as simply part of that lie. Nothing more. As such, uploading is a sin, perhaps the worst sin. Nothing makes the Shadowless happier than erasing backups and wiping substrates clean, a favor they feel they are constantly misunderstood for. No doubt bogeymen, their reputation is well-deserved at best, wildly underexaggerated at worst.

The Choir

What happens when the accretion of all organized religions builds up into one huge baroque edifice? If that edifice can inspire fellowship, and humility before God, and good works, then it becomes something positive. The Choir is utterly too vast to described, being pinned together by a flexible orthodoxy and spread out over vast distances. But its attitude towards uploading, perhaps surprisingly, has always been a positive one. The Choir's interest is not necessarily in uploading, but immortality, which it has a huge obsession with. Besides, how can a religion survive if they cannot adapt to the needs of their flock, see them over vast transformations and through crippling existential crises. Perhaps a digital existence becomes something you just accept, and you find a way to do it properly. Being librarians par excellence the Choir had found uploading crucial to the transmission of knowledge, and keeps vast archives of saints and scholars, and find a very hard time letting good emulations not be saved.

Ophidian Theocracy

While the Ophidian theo-political complex needs not be delved into, their attitude towards uploading is very simple. If you are a God-King, or one of the Unquestioned, then uploading is more your duty then right, and bizarre and megalomaniacal rituals surround it. If you are not one of the Unquestioned, then it's really up to your master to decide what to do with you. Good slaves get uploaded, bad ones do too sometimes. You don't want to know why.

Children of the Dawn

What happens when you strip away everything that's artificial? You become what you are. The Children of the Dawn are but the latest in a line of luddite earth-based revival religions, and, in their opinion, they did it right this time. You can't really describe such a disorganized grouping, but integration with nature is an important concept, with a distaste for technology when it removes one from the 'natural' life. Abstinence from uploading is not a given, but very common, and death is an accepted (if ominous) presence. Like many of the anti-uploading groups I've mentioned, the Children make the argument that 300 years of perfect health before you die is a fair bargain, why ask more?

Rational Materialism

The universe is an idea. Someday, we will build it, make it real. Until then, we are a scaffolding, a construction apparatus. We are necessary, but ephemeral. Rational Materialism (which, from the name, should immediately tell you that something is up), combines drab, technical utilitarianism with some pretty cockamamie theology, blueprints on creating a new universe handed down from madman to madman, with the underlying belief that were are only precursors to something greater. Individuality is neither respected or despised, but you are always reminded that you are here to serve a purpose, and anyone else can do what you can. Uploading is ultimately extraneous.
 

ravaena

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See, my own take on this issue, is that we are already, naturally, remaking ourselves. The cells that make us up, slowly die and are replaced. Basically every seven years, we have an entirely different body. Is a process that sped that up - broke down and replaced all of the cells that make up your body, possibly in a different location - is that process really creating a different you? If so, how is that different to what is already happening all the time within our bodies? Unless you're positing that we are actually entirely different people at any given point of time than we were previously.