Publishing question

Dmitriy · Jul 19, 2017

Currently I found myself in very uncertain situation.

I'm a writer/producer for big YA light novels series (100-110k words each). it's illustrated international project, there artists take a leading role (~150 full page watercolor pictures each book, artists are from China, Japan, Korea, Europe, New Zealand and even Mexico - 15 atrists at all). Whole work takes ~3 years and costs a lot of money - some of my artists are local tops and famous names - and a number of revisions (I'm learning how to write with two good editors from UK and US and their suggestions was very useful for me).

Few weeks ago I start quering our project to agents and publishers in US and UK (Germany and Poland too) and meets with problems.
1) Books are not for children - it's situable for 12+, even 14+ years and older because of harsh language, violence and sexual themes. But pictures are very... mild and warm (close to early Hayao Miyazaki works) and some people (mostly, the children mothers, ha-ha) said me what it brings wrong expression - reader wasn't wait for such blooded story looking on pictures;
2) I'm write in Russian (it's my native language) and all my texts are in Russian too (yes, for my English-speaking artists I made a rough English translation - it's also turn out very useful to fix the possible last errors in text, but at all it stills a very rough translation - i.e. I mean, native editor/agent/publisher instantly find mistakes in translated text which wasn't exist in original). Also, in my personal view and expirience, at the freelance market wasn't exist good Russian-English translators (only a retellers, who changed the text a lot, and it's wasn't suitable for me - they can't even deal with first 5 sentences correctly [it was not fun - they ask for 0.25-0.30 USD per word and can't do correct translation!]).

PS I'm not media person - just a middle aged SQL and Java programmer without any media contacts. Personally, I'm an unpublished author with twitter with ~ 2000 of followers in Japan and Korea, working with artists with big number of published books.

PPS I see a question "why don't try Russian firstly?". Yeah, I'm tried, but this market simply don't exist - advances ~300 USD for book with transfer of all rights for 5 years and without paying to artists - it's another unfun joke. Also, I'm was very unfriendly with local publishers for they behavior and comments like "Russia has no market for books of your type".

PPPS Yes, Asian markets initially it's a great decision and my primary aim, but dealing with Asian publishers for foreigners seems like dealing with sharks in a small aquarium (I know what I talking about, because we discuss it many times with my artists). And I even don't talk about very strained relationships among China, Korea and Japan (as example, in March 2017, China closed markets for publishers from Korea and Japan, and it was like forced hit in the stomach).

So, I simply don't know where I should offer project such as this? Who works with books like my project? (Yes, for two weks I received three rejects (one of them was for language reason; two another - just a fornal rejection).
What's my next step? Any suggestions?

Marissa D · Jul 19, 2017

If you're querying US publishers, part of the problem might be the illustrations--in the US, young adult novels usually aren't illustrated unless they're intended to be graphic novels. Nor are there all that many publishers that accept unagented submissions.

Dmitriy · Jul 19, 2017

Personally, not so long time ago I thought of grafic novel(s), but it should be initially ~60 pages and Asian top artist work costs 1000-2500 USD per page. I don't think what any publisher in US / UK offers only to artist initial advance ~100k USD (and as script author I should receive something too, he-he).

Old Hack · Jul 19, 2017

Dmitriy said:
I'm a writer/producer for big YA light novels series (100-110k words each). it's illustrated international project, there artists take a leading role (~150 full page watercolor pictures each book, artists are from China, Japan, Korea, Europe, New Zealand and even Mexico - 15 atrists at all). Whole work takes ~3 years and costs a lot of money - some of my artists are local tops and famous names - and a number of revisions (I'm learning how to write with two good editors from UK and US and their suggestions was very useful for me).

YA novels are usually much shorter than that, at around 60k I think (but I hope people will correct me, as it's not one of the genres in which I've worked). And adding 150 illustrations to each book is going to cost so much it would make the book unworkable, I fear.

I wonder if I'm getting things wrong, or if you've misunderstood the YA genre, because the length and number of illustrations seems so excessive to me.

Few weeks ago I start quering our project to agents and publishers in US and UK (Germany and Poland too) and meets with problems.
1) Books are not for children - it's situable for 12+, even 14+ years and older because of harsh language, violence and sexual themes. But pictures are very... mild and warm (close to early Hayao Miyazaki works) and some people (mostly, the children mothers, ha-ha) said me what it brings wrong expression - reader wasn't wait for such blooded story looking on pictures;

If the books have a lot of sex and/or violence in them you're going to struggle to place them in the YA market, but I still wonder if they are actually a different genre.

2) I'm write in Russian (it's my native language) and all my texts are in Russian too (yes, for my English-speaking artists I made a rough English translation - it's also turn out very useful to fix the possible last errors in text, but at all it stills a very rough translation - i.e. I mean, native editor/agent/publisher instantly find mistakes in translated text which wasn't exist in original). Also, in my personal view and expirience, at the freelance market wasn't exist good Russian-English translators (only a retellers, who changed the text a lot, and it's wasn't suitable for me - they can't even deal with first 5 sentences correctly [it was not fun - they ask for 0.25-0.30 USD per word and can't do correct translation!]).

There are plenty of good translators. But if you do manage to sell this project to publishers they'll probably want to do their own translations.

PPS I see a question "why don't try Russian firstly?". Yeah, I'm tried, but this market simply don't exist - advances ~300 USD for book with transfer of all rights for 5 years and without paying to artists - it's another unfun joke. Also, I'm was very unfriendly with local publishers for they behavior and comments like "Russia has no market for books of your type".

I am struggling to think of a market in the UK or US for a book this long, with this many illustrations. I wonder if you're going to have to lower your expectations here. Because the cost of producing a book which has so many words and pictures in it is going to be very high, and will probably price you out of the market.

So, I simply don't know where I should offer project such as this? Who works with books like my project? (Yes, for two weks I received three rejects (one of them was for language reason; two another - just a fornal rejection).
What's my next step? Any suggestions?

I think you are almost certainly going to struggle to find a home for this project because of the production costs involved, and because of the excessive sex and violence, and because the illustration styles seem at odds with the subject matter.

Unless I've got things significantly wrong you're going to have to cut down the length of the book to suit the genre, and probably drop most (if not all) of the illustrations.

If I have misunderstood how this project works, then do please tell me. Can you name three or four successful books in the genre which match yours for length, illustrations, and style? That would help.

Marissa D · Jul 19, 2017

Old Hack said:
YA novels are usually much shorter than that, at around 60k I think (but I hope people will correct me, as it's not one of the genres in which I've worked). And adding 150 illustrations to each book is going to cost so much it would make the book unworkable, I fear.

Contemporary YA can start as low as 40k...and fantasy YA can be in the 90-95k range (or higher, occasionally, for exceptional stories.)

Sage · Jul 19, 2017

Light novels is not really a US market. I'm not sure what to tell you other than that. The only market I know of for light novels is Japan. What market do you see the light novels you buy coming from? I suspect your word count is also too long for a light novel, wherever the market.

Dmitriy · Jul 19, 2017

Old Hack said:
YA novels are usually much shorter than that, at around 60k I think (but I hope people will correct me, as it's not one of the genres in which I've worked). And adding 150 illustrations to each book is going to cost so much it would make the book unworkable, I fear.

In fact, it's a light novels (I mean each book devided in three books, 35-40k words each - standard for light novels).

Old Hack said:
I wonder if I'm getting things wrong, or if you've misunderstood the YA genre, because the length and number of illustrations seems so excessive to me.

YA here is it's not genre, but type of audience, for which storys suitable the best. 12+ years.

Old Hack said:
If the books have a lot of sex and/or violence in them you're going to struggle to place them in the YA market, but I still wonder if they are actually a different genre.

Each book contained one lesbian sex scene among girls (not described but implied), most of my girls are bisexual/lesbian, and text contents a lot of depicted violense (no sexual violence) + sometimes swearing (it appears number times during rough translation, because some words in Russian sounds more calmly than in English).
NB - lgbtq topics for youth are prohibited by federal law in Russia and can't be printed only under 18+ mark.

Old Hack said:
There are plenty of good translators.

It's not truth for Russian-English translations. There are no good translators at all on this field. I know what I talking about, I tested a lot of translators (100+ peoples) and all of them allowed the critical errors.

Old Hack said:
But if you do manage to sell this project to publishers they'll probably want to do their own translations.

it's correct. Translation should do the publisher, not author or freelance-translator.

Old Hack said:
I am struggling to think of a market in the UK or US for a book this long, with this many illustrations. I wonder if you're going to have to lower your expectations here. Because the cost of producing a book which has so many words and pictures in it is going to be very high, and will probably price you out of the market.
I think you are almost certainly going to struggle to find a home for this project because of the production costs involved, and because of the excessive sex and violence, and because the illustration styles seem at odds with the subject matter.

I think it's shouldn't be author and illustrators problem. Our aim - write interesting and polished texts and draw the pretty pictures. Problems of marketing, publishing - not our problems at all, truly.

Old Hack said:
Unless I've got things significantly wrong you're going to have to cut down the length of the book to suit the genre, and probably drop most (if not all) of the illustrations.

You offering to drop the main selling point - illustrators sell the books, not author. People will purchase it because they familiar and love the artists, not author.

Old Hack said:
If I have misunderstood how this project works, then do please tell me. Can you name three or four successful books in the genre which match yours for length, illustrations, and style? That would help.

There are thousands of light novel titles in China, Japan and Korea etc.

Cyia · Jul 19, 2017

Once your target audience is over 12 years-old, very few publishers are going to want illustrations. Even some books targeted at younger readers will have a single, chapter-starting illustration, and no more.

Also, if you aren't the artist for the illustrations, then you're going to have trouble with finding a US publisher who will agree to work with those illustrations. Each image would be the property of the person who created it, so you're looking at a copyright nightmare. Each artist would have to be contacted and contracted in order for the illustrations to be usable in the US market, and that's more hassle than a publisher is going to want to take on.

"light novels" really aren't a regular feature in the American market. The only heavily illustrated novel I can think of is Hugo Cabret, and that was several years ago, as well as being meant for children.

Marissa D · Jul 19, 2017

Dmitriy said:
There are thousands of light novel titles in China, Japan and Korea etc.

Except these don't really exist in the US market...so are you sure you want to be submitting to US publishers?

Dmitriy · Jul 19, 2017

Cyia said:
Also, if you aren't the artist for the illustrations, then you're going to have trouble with finding a US publisher who will agree to work with those illustrations. Each image would be the property of the person who created it, so you're looking at a copyright nightmare. Each artist would have to be contacted and contracted in order for the illustrations to be usable in the US market, and that's more hassle than a publisher is going to want to take on.

All pictures already created under contracts between me and artist(s), so I'm an owner of pictures. And yes, for each books with one exception, works 4-5 different artists, most of all wasn't speak English at all.
If I can contact with artists and sucessfully work with them, I wasn't see the reasons why publishers can't do it. It's lesser of all problems - write a few letters on e-mail addresses and confirm contracts.

Cyia said:
"light novels" really aren't a regular feature in the American market. The only heavily illustrated novel I can think of is Hugo Cabret, and that was several years ago, as well as being meant for children.

But they are exist and sold good, am I right? So, I wasn't see any problems here too.

Dmitriy · Jul 19, 2017

Marissa D said:
Except these don't really exist in the US market...so are you sure you want to be submitting to US publishers?

Foreigner (doesn't matter where his origin - US, UK, Russia, Europe, etc) wasn't have any possibility to be published oficially in Asia with few exceptions - and I'm not one of them. It's very "inside" orientied lands and only for natives (yes, Korean market looks very appealing, but it wasn't work not for korean: and you can't do anything in China at all if you are not chinese - law restrictions from March 2017).

Marissa D · Jul 19, 2017

Dmitriy said:
All pictures already created under contracts between me and artist(s), so I'm an owner of pictures. And yes, for each books with one exception, works 4-5 different artists, most of all wasn't speak English at all.
If I can contact with artists and sucessfully work with them, I wasn't see the reasons why publishers can't do it. It's lesser of all problems - write a few letters on e-mail addresses and confirm contracts.

Does your contract with these artists give you complete ownership of the copyright of the images? Even if it does, publishers are going to be very, very wary because they're not contracts that they themselves have entered upon. You may think it's a "lesser" problem, but it isn't. Generally speaking, unless you're both an author and illustrator, the norm in US publishing is that the publisher finds illustrators for picture books and other illustrated works.

Dmitriy said:
But they are exist and sold good, am I right? So, I wasn't see any problems here too.

No, that's what we're trying to tell you--these DON'T really exist in the US market. None of the publishers that I know of publish this kind of book.

Cyia · Jul 19, 2017

US copyright has its own rules and regulations, and those rules can be very complex and confusing even for a native speaker of the language.

You can buy a picture, but that doesn't mean you can reproduce that picture for your own use or in your own work. That usually takes a commercial license, which is different from paying to have a picture created. In general, if you pay for the creation of an image, you're paying for that picture to be made once and used by you alone. Once you get into mass production, with images being used for other work, like illustrations in a print run, then the artist can be entitled to royalties from the profits of the book. It takes someone versed in a specific type of US copyright law to hammer out the details because they can be extremely precise. Those contracts also have to be executed (put into effect) through American filings, which can be different from those in your home country. (And these are just the issues I can think of as someone who isn't a lawyer.)

And just to agree with Marissa D. Light novels, as you describe them, ARE NOT a viable market in the US right now. They're not common. They're not mass marketed. They're not active sought by most agents, if any.

Dmitriy · Jul 19, 2017

Both of you misherd and misunderstood me.

1) Concerning rights to the pictures.
a) Artists are not simply artists, but marked as co-authors, and have the same rights on the text as I (and became project endorcers in lands of their origin). Many of them have full permission to raw-scans of other project artists. And of course, their received advances for text (written by me) and for pictures.
b) By standard contract I have all rights to use pictures in books and for promotion. By agreement with artists I can use it even in videogames, animation, goods, etc (paying additional costs to artists). Artists can use pictures in it's portfolio with link on me only.
So, agent/publisher can discuss all questions of project publication with any of artists without even noticing me at all.
It's uneasy for understanding scheme, I know, but according to our mutual contracts, I can't publish my own texts without pictures, because texts belongs to artists as same as me by contracts regulations. Taking only text, publisher anyway will pay to all artists who take participation in creating of book, even if they wasn't written a word in text. Equally, I will receive money from each sold book if pictures will be printed separately (as some kind of artbook, for example) - and no matter what I wasn't draw a line in it.

2) Concerning light novels. It's only a question of terminology. Publisher can call it light novel, YA, MG, adult book, artbook, etc - as he wish from it's own marketing point of view.

I hope now it's clear?

Marissa D · Jul 19, 2017

No, it's not a question of terminology. Not sure how to phrase it more clearly, but there is no market in the US for the kind of books you've described in this post. You don't see them in bookstores. They aren't sold here. Changing their category name isn't magically going make them a saleable prospect to an American publisher if the market doesn't exist.

I'm not even going to touch the contractual issues...hopefully Old Hack will come back and comment.

Cyia · Jul 19, 2017

Dmitriy said:
Both of you misherd and misunderstood me.

1) Concerning rights to the pictures.
a) Artists are not simply artists, but marked as co-authors,

Then they would have to sign any publishing contract along with you, which would entitle them to a portion of all advances and profits. That's how "co-author" works in the US.
and have the same rights on the text as I (and became project endorcers in lands of their origin). Many of them have full permission to raw-scans of other project artists. And of course, their received advances for text (written by me) and for pictures.

That's not the way it works. It's also why a lot of agents and publishers are reluctant to work with "co-author" situations unless the author / authors are already established as profitable.

b) By standard contract I have all rights to use pictures in books and for promotion. By agreement with artists I can use it even in videogames, animation, goods, etc (paying additional costs to artists). Artists can use pictures in it's portfolio with link on me only.

It really, really doesn't work that way. The contracts have to be with the publishers, and again, if they're credited with writing, then they get part of the advance and profits. It doesn't matter what you've paid them out of your own pocket.
So, agent/publisher can discuss all questions of project publication with any of artists without even noticing me at all.
No they can't and no they won't. It's easier for them to pass on something this complex and go with something simpler.
It's uneasy for understanding scheme, I know, but according to our mutual contracts, I can't publish my own texts without pictures, because texts belongs to artists as same as me by contracts regulations. Taking only text, publisher anyway will pay to all artists who take participation in creating of book, even if they wasn't written a word in text. Equally, I will receive money from each sold book if pictures will be printed separately (as some kind of artbook, for example) - and no matter what I wasn't draw a line in it.

This contract would be at odds with any publishing contract you signed. The conflict is going to make any potential agent or publisher pass.

2) Concerning light novels. It's only a question of terminology. Publisher can call it light novel, YA, MG, adult book, artbook, etc - as he wish from it's own marketing point of view.
It's NOT terminology; it's marketing, and there is NO MARKET for this kind of book in the US. It's not a format utilized here.

I hope now it's clear?

The only way you're going to get an agent / publisher to even look at this is if you submit the novel as nothing but prose without any pictures. You can mention that you envision it as illustrated, and even link to the scans, but publication CAN NOT be dependent on the use of those pieces if you want it to be taken seriously. Even if a publisher takes the novel on and agrees to use illustrations, you CAN NOT specify that they use the ones you supply. They may have their own artists in-house that they use for illustrations, and they may not want to use the pieces you've got. They may only want a portion, or they may want none at all.

You CAN NOT submit to an American publisher with the requirement that they use illustrations you provide. It doesn't work that way. The system isn't set up for this kind of project.

I'm sorry. It's just not.

Dmitriy · Jul 19, 2017

Marissa D said:
No, it's not a question of terminology. Not sure how to phrase it more clearly, but there is no market in the US for the kind of books you've described in this post. You don't see them in bookstores. They aren't sold here. Changing their category name isn't magically going make them a saleable prospect to an American publisher if the market doesn't exist.

I'm not even going to touch the contractual issues...hopefully Old Hack will come back and comment.

No, you are completely not right here. All things you try to tell me irrelevant, really and even sounds like some form of pretext, sorry. Only significant thing which can forcing to close some type of markets - it's law prohibition.
In Russia (and many Muslim lands as example) exists laws which restrict lgbtq-tipics so no one will risks to publish it.

mccardey · Jul 19, 2017

Dmitriy said:
No, you are completely not right here. All things you try to tell me irrelevant, really and even sounds like some form of pretext, sorry. Only significant thing which can forcing to close some type of markets - it's law prohibition.
In Russia (and many Muslim lands as example) exists laws which restrict lgbtq-tipics so no one will risks to publish it.

When people say there's "no market" for something, they mean there is no consumer interest in it. No buyers for it. Or - not enough buyers to make safe the publisher's investment.

Marissa D · Jul 19, 2017

I give up. If you're not willing to listen to answers given by people with publishing experience in the US, why are you bothering to ask questions?

Dmitriy · Jul 19, 2017

Cyia, you made same error, of which I heard from number of people.
The name of this error simple "separation of one global market to pieces". The same mistake made many russian and I heard of it countless number of times; but I wan't to argue with it, sorry - because or initially people inderstanding what I trying to talking about or not, it's useless to argue, I'm really sorry.
Also, from your comment I see clearly - you never sign any contracts with artists (I signed with 15 artists from different lands and will be more following year), and you simply don't understand how author-artists contracts works.

Note: the only reason why I currently choose UK and US markets (and western/eastern Europe too), it's communication question - just because my English in current state are better than Japanese or Korean and because foreigner can't be published in Asia if he wasn't already have big sucess in America or Europe (note - Russian book market it's not a market, it's a sadomasochistic joke and wasn't exist on global scene).

spottedgeckgo · Jul 19, 2017

You're trying to do something I think that there isn't a system in place for. There are two options, keep fighting the current system and hoping that someone picks it up, or carve your own niche. There's probably a market for this in the US, but it isn't on the shelf at Barnes 'n Noble. That said, I have no idea how you would be able to work it, but the US at least is very good at assimilating ideas and new markets, when the advertising and distribution is done right.

Now, if you went that route, you would basically be a start-up business. The only way I see it working is setting up a publishing business, and finding your own markets. There are some comic shops that might agree to carry your product, and I would contact them directly before you start your venture. Make sure you have somewhere to sell it. The other trick is going to be smashing all those illustrations in there at a price point the market would bear. I would say, check the price list on the larger graphic novels and make sure that you can match/beat it depending on your printer. If you hand off a rough translation to an American writer, they might be able to convey the meaning and tidy everything up. Don't expect it to be cheap though. That might be a way to go with the translation, just do it twice. Once to bad English, then from bad to good English.

I'm kind of rambling, but I get a little excited when I see someone trying to break a mold. But if you are going to try it, be ready for crushing defeat and adversary at every single turn. You are going to have to go and find the precious few people in the US who know about the genre, like it, and own shops with like-minded customers who might be willing to give it a try. You are going to have to introduce it to the rest of us. Could be a huge payoff, but more likely a money pit that belly flops. Entrepreneurs in the US have taken on seemingly impossible tasks and come out on top though.

I really don't see any way to make this work without taking the project into your own hands. As everyone else said, the US book market simply isn't set up for it.

edit: PS - If you find a shop that is carrying this kind of book already, that can lead you to a publisher who might be willing to work with you.

Dmitriy · Jul 19, 2017

spottedgeckgo,
1) Barnes 'n Noble banned Russian IP's and I cant even look on it's shelves without VPN.

...Some US and UK agents made it too.

2) I'm living in Russia

, and it's impossible to create and moderate "start-ups" or any other business (publishing for example) in US from outside. It's possible only with help of local endorcer.

Also, most of US comic publishers accepting submissions only via snailmail and shops wasn't deal with guy from Russia too (and they want superherous stuff or BD - not even manga).

I know the guys (comic artists) who was printed in France. How they did it? Oh, it was simple - local "crazy" French fans take local publishers in siege and simply forced them to take work in print.
BUT I constantly receiving requests from usual people from Mexico, Japan, Korea, Russia with one question "where I can buy it?". One of them even donated me 900 USD only to continue work further. But they are will not stalking with publishing - for this needs very... bonebreaking and stubborn type of mind.

spottedgeckgo · Jul 19, 2017

I'm not sure what to say then. I was just tossing ideas out. I know that I have heard of Light novels in passing. I mentioned comic shops because the more eclectic ones that host gaming events and such tend to be the go-to place for manga, anime, and other things in that category. Those are the only places where I've found people interested in that kind of topic, and some build their businesses on products that are foreign or even unheard of to most Americans.

When it comes to the business end though, I'm at a complete loss for how to go about it to make deals and ship products between nations. I wish you the best on your pursuit though. There's got to be some way to go about it, but you will definitely find your audience on this side of the pond in gaming shops that sell Magic:the gathering, dice, and comic related stuff.

shizu · Jul 19, 2017

The only light novels I'm aware of that are published in English are ones from pre-existing anime franchises. They're generally translated from their original Japanese, and published by presses that are already established in anime/manga publishing.

Even so, it's difficult to get even the pre-existing light novels (with a pre-existing audience) translated into English because as others have said, there just isn't much of a market for it here.

From what I can tell, there are only 149 books in English listed as "light novels" on Amazon right now. Compare that to over 21,000 Japanese language light novels listed on Amazon in Japan. The market in English is literally that tiny.

None of the ones I've ever seen have as many illustrations as you're talking about either -- they normally have about 10-15 illustrations per book at most.

Dmitriy · Jul 19, 2017

shizu
Light novels write not only in Japan - in Korea and China too + innumerable web-novels which, at last, always printed. And don't forget of Vietnam, Taiwan, Hong Hong, Philippines, Thailand, Myanmar, Singapore...
To be published in Korea you should be native korean (first of all!), contact with publisher, publisher should give you permission to put your web-novel online; you find illustrator (it's necessery!) marketising your novel and if it has high ranks, publisher print it. I know it from my native artist, who illustrated a bunch of top BL and romatique novels for different authors (and I became her first mutual work with foreigner).
If you are not native, or your name not John Green or Stephen King - reject, reject, total reject

In Japan you shoul be native too, or they will very-very-very polute reject you too.
In China you shoul be only native and satisfy local censorship.

Personally, I have a number of Japanese, Chinese and Korean books from modern (local) authors for YA and adults heavily illustrated in watercolor

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