On LGBT main character

I haven't pored over every interview with Rowling about the subject, but my recollection is she told an audience of fans, in response to general questions about Dumbledore, the backstory on the character, which had stayed in her head, never made it on the page, and had been prompted to think about his gayness while providing creative input into the movie adaptation of the last two books. I'd say there could be lots of reason that Dumbledore's relationship with the wizard Grindelward didn't make it on the page, or on the screen (thus far). I deep six lots of backstory during my own creative process in the service of pacing, tough decisions on what readers really need to know.

However, I'd aver that homophobia played a role, based on re-reading one article back from 2007. Rowling says if she had known Dumbledore's gayness would have gotten such a positive reaction, as it did at that author event, she would have revealed his gayness earlier. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566762/JK-Rowling-reveals-Dumbledore-is-gay.html

I'm forgiving in this instance because Rowling has since been an outspoken advocate for LGBTs, and while I haven't read any of her recent work, the next movie franchise seems to be taking on gay characters fairly positively (I had some mixed feelings about the tragic relationship between Ezra Miller and Colin Farrell in Fantastic Beasts; but I love both those actors so much, think they brought the right amount of nuance to the characters, so it didn't feel as creepy and pathologized as some gay corruption/tragedy tropes). Maybe that's stars in my eyes getting in the way. It certainly would be better if there were a variety of LGBT characters in the stories (Harry Potter and onward) so that the sole example isn't tortured and tragic, regardless of the time period.

SillyLittleTwit said:

Yes. I am aware of that. My point is that the Victorians would not have considered Frodo and Sam's relationship as sexual, due to different cultural norms. It just happens to be how I read Dumbledore and Grindelwald.

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I find that dubious. Perhaps many straight Victorians wouldn't but many would. You might want to read some of the many books about queer Victorian history. There was a vibrant queer subculture in the era.

SillyLittleTwit said:

(Not least because it avoids the disturbing situation where the only example of homosexuality in Rowling is Dumbledore falling in love with wizard Hitler, then shunning all further attachments. In a setting that otherwise portrays love as entirely positive).

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You're making straightness the default, for one thing. Unless you've got a secret decoder chart for the sexuality and orientation of all the characters that someone no one else got.

Secondly; queer people are human, with human flaws, human emotions and human virtues.

SillyLittleTwit said:

It is not about Dumbledore being straight. He isn't straight any more than he is gay - within the books themselves, he has no sexuality (wearing purple robes does not make one homosexual). Which is why Rowling should not be claiming credit for portraying a Queer character when she has done nothing of the sort.

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I don't really see her waving her arms around proclaiming she did anything of the kind. She was asked if Dumbledore had ever loved anyone and she answered. (I think Ajay has a point).

After reading an excerpt from the seventh installment of her series, "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows," one young fan asked if Dumbledore had ever loved anyone.

"Dumbledore is gay, actually," replied Rowling.

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I'm sorry you don't find that believable or acceptable, but the honestly, the frequency with which queer folk are told by others that "I had no idea you were gay" kinda makes the reaction that "Dumbledore couldn't be gay" and that Rowling was pulling a fast one because she didn't have a neon light announcing the fact in Book I, is a little eye-rollingly heteronormative.

SillyLittleTwit said:

1. The "children won't notice" thing is in reference to featuring adult sexuality in a children's book - nothing to do with "protecting children from evil gays". I've had this discussion before about Rowling not putting Dumbledore's sexuality in the book, and the common answer is that "she can't. It's a kid's book."

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You're equating sexuality with orientation, and orientation with having sex. A person's orientation isn't determined by whether or not they're having sex. It's not even about sex to the extent you seem to want to make it; it's about who you are attracted to, who you love.

There are lots of kids' books with same-sex relationships; having a queer character doesn't mean that they have to have sex to be queer or to alert the reader that a book contains queerness.

SillyLittleTwit said:

2. A fictional character does not have a sexuality until they are given one. Dumbledore isn't given one - he's not straight, and he's not gay, any more than Gandalf is.

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Yet Rowling does in fact give Dumbledore an orientation (is that what you meant by sexuality? Because that was a little Freudian). Moreover, it's pretty clear in the final book.

Gandalf would likely fall on the asexual spectrum; he is a Maia. Tolkien describes them Maia quite specifically as angelic messengers of the Valar, and directly compares them to angels, who are asexual.

themindstream said:

Honest question, was any of that before book 7? I'm not involved with the fandom and the books were coming out at a time when I was much more naive about non-hetero relationships.

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I think the amount of fan fic written before 2007 that features Dumbledore as gay is kinda telling.

AW Admin said:

I think the amount of fan fic written before 2007 that features Dumbledore as gay is kinda telling.

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Ok, but (again, I honestly don't know) did they have stuff they pointed at in the text canon if challenged on it? Cause shippers gonna ship.


...Actually, I just went to the TV Tropes page on this topic and noticed something I hadn't seen before. Between 1988 and 2003, UK law prohibited government bodies (which would include public school libraries) from promoting/distributing material which could be interpreted as promoting homosexuality. So at least during that time frame, Rowling would not have been able to touch on Dumbledore's orientation openly within the books without difficulties in getting them to their target audience (presuming she wanted to; Dumbledore's past relationships didn't actually become plot-relevant until book 7).

Albedo said:

Unless you are saying that asexuality grants awesome wizard powers.

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Discworld?

No, Discworld wizards are mostly celibate because of the risk that their offspring might become a Sourceror which tends to be Very Bad for the continued existence of the world. They do have (hetero) crushes and relationships in the text, however.

themindstream said:

No, Discworld wizards are mostly celibate because of the risk that their offspring might become a Sourceror which tends to be Very Bad for the continued existence of the world. They do have (hetero) crushes and relationships in the text, however.

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Yeah, that's true. Now that I think about it, didn't Ridcully have a youthful fling with Granny Weatherwax?

Maybe a better example is the Maia, like AW Admin says. They're basically magic coz they're angels(ish)...

So I just realised that the school that He was supposed to go to before he got his Hogwarts letter was called Stonewall...

As a reader I know that I actively seek out stories that include LGBT characters. Just be aware of the representation you're promoting (i.e. stereotypes, homophobia, etc). Make sure your LBGT characters are as believable and engaging as any of your straight ones.

Melanii said:

I'm already interested because you mentioned "bi-sexual elf Liukan". You'll gain more readers than lose them, I'm sure.

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Haha, so happy to hear that people are interested in my bi-sexual elf. He doesn't have a very large role and was modeled after what Bennedict Cumberbatch would be like if he were a bi-sexual elf, but thanks.

gambit924 said:

Haha, so happy to hear that people are interested in my bi-sexual elf. He doesn't have a very large role and was modeled after what Bennedict Cumberbatch would be like if he were a bi-sexual elf, but thanks.

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1) I'm bisexual.

2) Male elves are automatically hot

Tell me when you need a reader.

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Note to self: Actually read the Harry Potter series

Just as a note, the general consensus among bisexual people is that the word shouldn't be hyphenated.

(I'm not going to read through the thread, because threads like this make me REALLY nervous. I've seen many similar on various sites, and they tend not to end well)

most people in the community are more likely to read a story in which they feel represented. several of my friends have said that if a story has no queer characters, they're less interested. when you grow up not seeing your face anywhere, a story where you actually see yourself means everything. but, because of that, writers who write queer characters (especially if they're not queer) need to be careful. we WILL get emotional about the story. we WILL get upset if we see ourselves stereotyped. we expect more from modern writers who attempt this.

for anyone who wants to write a character of a different sexuality or gender than them, PLEASE do research. google is a godsend. ALSO GET SENSITIVITY READERS. people in the community to read your story before it's released. I can't understate the importance of this.

anyway, to address the actual question of the thread: yes, you'll have fewer readers. a lot of people won't pick up a book with a queer protagonist. but if you do it well, you'll have a loyal readership. think about San Junipero. most people have seen that episode of Black Mirror and nothing else, because it showed queer women in a healthy way we never get to see. months later and people are still having San Junipero dance parties in New York.

write us, but write us well.

I think the biggest problem is many force the characters. Its become a gimmick to use to gain some popularity.
I've been writing stories with lesbian characters now for over 15 years, most have them as the main character. I always approach them as normal, everyday people that you'd want to meet. I personally dislike it when a story bashes certain groups, which happens in some of the lesbian stories, male bashing, straight bashing, it turns me off and makes the writer sound like a bitter old person.
A lot of times in sci-fi I approach the aspect of being gay or lesbian, its just another person. I've had people read my stories who are not really for lesbians, but still enjoyed the story because I wrote a story, not a lesbian lecture.