I know the numbers are bleak. I've got like five surveys practically screaming it in my ear that I have to talk about in detail. And if the business was just about fiction alone, maybe I'd also think "this is a stupid idea -- don't do that". But, well, it isn't.
I asked you a question about this in your intro thread but it's probably more pertinent here, so I'll copy it over:
Currently I'm in the middle of writing a video game inspired adventure... Fantasy? Speculative Fiction? Probably Speculative Fiction. Video Game Adventure Speculative Fiction Novel. I'm right at the beginning, so it's going okay, though I do wish I would write it faster.
On the other hand, I'm also trying to create a LLC publishing... thing. It does more than just fiction -- a *lot* more. If you see me around talking business, it's probably in preparation for that.
That's really interesting. I worked for years in computer games publishing before moving to the book trade and haven't seen many such tie-ins because it's often so very difficult to sort out the rights to allow you to do it. How did you manage to acquire the rights, and did you work with an agent to sort out the contracts? Usually the game publishers require a book contract to be in place to do this, but it sounds as though you plan to self-publish: it's very unusual to get rights in place with this aim, so I'm interested to hear more.
You do have the rights to do this for the video game you're working with, don't you? Sorry to bang on about it. It's just that I've seen so many people start on a collaborative or derivative work without realising they'd need to negotiate terms with the copyright holder if they wanted to publish those derivative works, and it's never ended well. This is particularly pertinent for you as you're planning on setting up a limited company, and borrowing money and so on.
I... didn't really ask for that for myself? I mean, I just want straight numbers -- I can plug them into excel for myself. And I don't really expect people to "draw" the graph -- I just assumed you *had them*, freshly generated on your spreadsheets. The fact that the authors I've talked to don't seem to use spreadsheets or keep track of this stuff and just have it on hand is... frankly abhorrent to me.
I've worked for publishers where financial forecasts were scribbled on napkins at the dinner table. I've worked for publishers where contract details were calculated on the backs of envelopes. I've worked for publishers where everything was written down on ruled accounting paper, by hand, and kept in big fireproof folders in a special records room.
You might find it "frankly abhorrent" that people don't always use spreadsheets but those publishers were all very successful and meticulous in their work, and they have excellent reputations. And so long as writers and publishers keep accurate records and pay their royalties and taxes on time there's nothing wrong with it. We don't all have to do things your way.
Actually, that's really what this whole thing is about -- keeping track of stuff. Proving that things like ads and marketing really work. Improving your marketing so that things like only selling 50 books for your first title just... *doesn't happen*.
You can't prove that things like ads and marketing really work, though.
Years ago, when I used to work in sales and marketing, it was clear that what my staff and I were doing did work: but what was important was the whole mix, not one aspect of it or another. It's all cumulative. For example, you can book ads and know they will help bookshops pick your books up if your sales teams have done their job too; you can get great reviews but unless the books are in place on bookshop shelves on the days after the reviews are published, they might not have the impact you thought they would; you can generate a lot of noise on Twitter and FB but if you're not also engaging on a social level with the people you're shouting at, they're just going to ignore you UNLESS they also know the author, or have read previous books, or see a special offer, and so on.
Marketing efforts interact with one another and build upon what went before. You can't usually pinpoint that one event--an ad, a review, an author interview--has caused a blip in sales on its own because without the other things you've done, you probably wouldn't have seen that blip.
When you try to unpick all the things you did, and quantify how effective each one was, you are likely to reach some very odd conclusions. I know, because I've worked at publishers where this has been done. They had big budgets to throw at the questions, and a lot of data to fall back on. And their conclusions were that we don't know exactly how it works, just that it does, and that you can't remove one part of the process and expect the others to continue to be as effective as they were before.
And with all due respect, I hope you don't use ellipses and dashes and asterisks like that when you're writing your books. Having an attack of the Shatners is very distracting to read.
Series of books. And, while I'm maybe not the best person to be talking about this, I do remember that one of the surveys said that the people who made the most money at this where those who where willing to put money into it.
Logic is your friend here. And logic would make you realise that "the more money I put into it the more successful I will be!" is not necessarily true.
I used to review self published books and very few were good enough to make the cut. Many of them had had a lot of money thrown at them but it wasn't enough to make them a success.
Now, does that mean that I'm going to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on a few books? Not really. But, if it's a piece of a larger idea and business that requires that, am I just going to give up because a bunch of people told me to based on one tiny fraction of what was going on? Not really.
I believe you're working on some sort of interactive crossover project, involving books and video games. You probably aren't aware, but AW Admin worked on interactive books and digital content in the 1980s and 90s, and was involved in pretty much creating the genre. I was working in computer games publishing at that time and was involved in the production, sales and marketing of very similar projects. We both have a lot of experience here. You're welcome to ignore our comments but as we've both got decades of experience in the area you're working in, you might find it wise to listen to us and not dismiss us as "a bunch of people".
So, first off, question: is there any other place on here to talk numbers, or is everyone just... hunky-dory with not looking at them? Because seriously -- I *cannot* have been the first person to have asked this question of people. It is literally impossible. How else do people get sales figures and visitor info if they don't ask about it?
We've had other people asking this over the years, just as you have, and while I do see value in the exercise you have to understand it's not as simple as you seem to think it is, and there are several issues to consider here.
As has already been said very eloquently upstream, very few people are going to be willing to share their sales figures etc. in the way you've asked because it would mean exposing their financial risks and gains, and people don't often like talking about money.
As I have already said, unless you narrow it down a lot you're going to be comparing apples to durian fruit here, and no meaningful data will be collected. The variables aren't just genre, format, extent, but also talent, experience, track record, and so on. Trade publishing is a very different animal to self publishing; selling non-fic requires a whole different set of skills to selling a short story. And where's the place for journalism and memoir and self-help books?
You can't be sure people are going to tell you the truth. Very few writers are going to be willing to admit that their books failed, for example.
Any data which is collected as a result of self-selection is going to be flawed.
Now, if you can ask questions in a way which isn't asking people to expose themselves in unpleasant ways, and which is going to be narrowed down enough to collect meaningful data, then that would be useful. How do you suggest we do that?
And, you know, get their butt handed to them over the internet by people unwilling to be transparent about anything, or ignored, or given rough ballpark numbers that help but won't convince anyone. People can show their worst sides sometimes, when you try and talk business, which is what I've learned from trying to go it alone -- which is another reason for this thread.
OK. I'll share some of my data, and we can see how it helps.
I've had over forty books published (and have edited a lot more). All have turned a profit for their publishers. Not all have earned out. Not all have sold through. The lowest print run was about 3,000 copies. Several have run to 20,000 copies or more and gone to reprint. Most have been published around the world and sold into translation. The best sales figures were about 2,300 in the first week of publication. The worst didn't even sell that many in the first year. Some have been advertised on the sides of busses and buildings and I'm not sure how much that helped, but it was fun seeing them.
So, I'm planning on doing a whole bunch of stuff in September to help prepare for a book launch in December, assuming there's money coming in. Anyone interested in numbers when that happens?
That sounds just like the self-publishing diary threads you've already been referred to. Why don't you start your own diary thread, and we can enjoy hearing about your progress, and all you've achieved?
