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J. Tanner

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Your comments about your book's genre sound to me like LitRPG. It's a strong niche market at the moment.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the "god" comment in regard to R.T. Leone. I said no such thing about his personal ambitions and he never mentioned anything like that to my knowledge. I was referring to his first novel launch. He also had a business plan, also using anecdotal data to forecast a certain level of financial success, (and coincidentally now that you've shared more about your book, also was in the LitRPG genre.) So it seemed to me something that might interest you.
 

SBDec

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Your comments about your book's genre sound to me like LitRPG. It's a strong niche market at the moment.

Maybe. Gonna have to look further into it, but it at least sounds promising.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the "god" comment in regard to R.T. Leone. I said no such thing about his personal ambitions and he never mentioned anything like that to my knowledge. I was referring to his first novel launch. He also had a business plan, also using anecdotal data to forecast a certain level of financial success, (and coincidentally now that you've shared more about your book, also was in the LitRPG genre.) So it seemed to me something that might interest you.

Uh... I was saying "god, I hate spelling it out" not "trying to be a god". Because saying "I want to be internet famous" sounds like a horrible way to get a loan, basically. It was an aside.

Here, let me re-interpret it for you:

"Unless he was low-key looking into becoming a -- god, I hate spelling it out -- a low viewer number web celebrity in the process of marketing everything, I don't think we're that heavily related."

Better?

As for R.T. Leone, I haven't found his thread yet, though I've definitely found his profile. Definitely curious to see how successful or unsuccessful he really was -- going with my definition of successful, not his.
 

mccardey

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That's interesting for a multitude of reasons, some of them being even a little relevant, but also you've got to be aware that you sound exactly like a multitude of people who don't know what they're talking about who've also tried to dissuade me, which you've immediately gotten lumped with. AKA, people who have freely lectured me for forty minutes
I think you should get an absolutely huge loan and pour it all into your project because a) it isn't my money, and b) I am one of those people who
didn't understand the terminology I used to try and argue my case,
Which I just mention because you might want to work on being able to explain what your plan is, as though I am six. Because if I was the person with the money it doesn't matter at all how much smarter than me you think you are. If you want me to loan you some, you'll need to explain the investment.
 
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J. Tanner

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Here, let me re-interpret it for you:

"Unless he was low-key looking into becoming a -- god, I hate spelling it out -- a low viewer number web celebrity in the process of marketing everything, I don't think we're that heavily related."

Better?

As for R.T. Leone, I haven't found his thread yet, though I've definitely found his profile. Definitely curious to see how successful or unsuccessful he really was -- going with my definition of successful, not his.

Sorry, I misread. I previously thought that you were saying R.T. was trying to be in internet celebrity but now I understand (?) that you were referring to yourself.

Here's his thread. Google turned it up as the first hit on a search for his name and kboards:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,248210.msg3457089.html#msg3457089

It's odd that you mention considering doing the cover yourself. What's the purpose of this loan if it isn't to cover the two (typically) biggest expenses in self-publishing--editing and top-tier cover?
 

SBDec

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Make sure you understand the concept of survivorship bias.

Internet famous, eh?

*hands over a monkey's paw*

Ha. I'm well aware of how badly that can go. Probably even worse than what you where thinking, considering the powder-keg situations I'm going to be entering into with this. And I'll read up on that link, too, once I've got the time.

Which I just mention because you might want to work on being able to explain what your plan is, as though I am six. Because if I was the person with the money it doesn't matter at all how much smarter than me you think you are. If you want me to loan you some, you'll need to explain the investment.

Sure, as long as you don't mind long power points that span years of business planning. Which, you know, probably isn't going to fly very well when I try it tomorrow. But, hey, at least this time I'll be the one talking for forty minutes.

It's odd that you mention considering doing the cover yourself. What's the purpose of this loan if it isn't to cover the two (typically) biggest expenses in self-publishing--editing and top-tier cover?

Thanks for the thread -- read part of the first post and got about five blaring warning signs from that alone.

The main reason I even bring up the cover is that people are going to be seeing my art a lot in association with the book, so it's going to be a bit weird if I don't actually, you know, draw it. It's an idle sort of thing -- I'll probably just pay someone who's got the drawing chops to copy characters from some sketches and make it look good as a design.
 

Helix

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I'm just working my way through the first post on your new thread, but I thought I'd make my comments here. I think if you're going to be trying to raise money, you need to articulate:

What it is you're producing. (It's clear to you, obvs, but you need to explain it to potential backers/buyers. Something almost, but not quite, entirely unlike Ready Player One is not a good pitch*.)
What you want the money for.
If you're after a bank loan, how you are going to pay back the principal + interest in the specified loan period.
If you're to be funded through Patreon, what subscribers receive for their dosh.


* Apologies for the paraphrase. Also apologies to Douglas Adams for nicking and re-purposing his words.
 
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SBDec

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I'm just working my way through the first post on your new thread, but I thought I'd make my comments here.

Then I'll do the opposite, and answer them over there.
 

be frank

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Clarity! Lots and lots of clarity!

I still haven't gotten a good enough way of describing it yet

Clarity, ftw!

I mean, I just want straight numbers -- I can plug them into excel for myself. And I don't really expect people to "draw" the graph -- I just assumed you *had them*, freshly generated on your spreadsheets. The fact that the authors I've talked to don't seem to use spreadsheets or keep track of this stuff and just have it on hand is... frankly abhorrent to me.

You're conflating "I'm not going to share this information on the open internet with a complete stranger" with "I don't have it."

The fact you'd expect us to provide you with this data is ... frankly abhorrent to me.
 
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Parametric

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You're conflating "I'm not going to share this information on the open internet with a complete stranger" with "I don't have it."

The fact you'd expect us to provide you with this data is ... frankly abhorrent to me.

Yes, I've known authors to be targeted (with one-star reviews, especially) due to sharing their sales data online.
 

davidjgalloway

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Yes, I've known authors to be targeted (with one-star reviews, especially) due to sharing their sales data online.

Do you have a reference for that? I'm trying to understand how the author would know unless the reviewer actually put that in their review or wrote an email/post that made it clear, and in the latter case, couldn't the author show that to Amazon or whoever? If it were really that egregious and transparent, wouldn't there be ways to try to address it? And when you say "online," is that on the author's page/blog, on a site like Kboards/AW, or something else?
 

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Do you have a reference for that? I'm trying to understand how the author would know unless the reviewer actually put that in their review or wrote an email/post that made it clear, and in the latter case, couldn't the author show that to Amazon or whoever? If it were really that egregious and transparent, wouldn't there be ways to try to address it? And when you say "online," is that on the author's page/blog, on a site like Kboards/AW, or something else?

Multiple clients of mine have mentioned receiving surges of one-star reviews when they shared sales information in places like the Kboards. I didn't ask for details - they're savvy enough to know.
 
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davidjgalloway

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Multiple clients of mine have mentioned receiving surges of one-star reviews when they shared sales information in places like the Kboards. I didn't ask for details - they're savvy enough to know.

What do you think the motivation is? That these authors are bragging, and so need to be taken down a peg?
 

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What do you think the motivation is? That these authors are bragging, and so need to be taken down a peg?

Basically yes. Leaving drive-by one-star reviews is a simple and effective way of punishing authors for whatever reason, including jealousy, rivalry, etc.
 

ASeiple

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Envy and spite, for the most part. "I can write better than that junk! How dare he make $XXX while I'm stuck with ( Bad circumstances )!"

It's penny arcade's greater internet fuckwad theory. When there's no repercussions for dumping on someone anonymously, some people will be compelled to do so.
 

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I've seen writers penalised for being open about their sales figures and incomes, too. It's such a nasty thing to do. Reeks of sour grapes.
 

ASeiple

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I've seen writers penalised for being open about their sales figures and incomes, too. It's such a nasty thing to do. Reeks of sour grapes.

Yeah. It seems to be a certainty; if you get successful enough, sooner or later you start getting dogpiled by folks who aren't. There's always a percentage of humanity that's made up of horrible gits, and the more people who become aware of you, the more your chance of running into those horrible gits rises.

It only takes the wrong one to really mess things up, or shake your self-confidence. And in a career where you need to be able to trust yourself and your muse in order to function properly, self-confidence is a hard thing to risk.

It's why I'm sharing numbers as I can now, when nobody's gunning for me. If I keep making progress eventually I'll reach the point where I can't do that without risking it all.
 

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Envy and spite, for the most part. "I can write better than that junk! How dare he make $XXX while I'm stuck with ( Bad circumstances )!"

It's penny arcade's greater internet fuckwad theory. When there's no repercussions for dumping on someone anonymously, some people will be compelled to do so.

Yep. It's not as many as it seems, but there are some really petty, small-minded malicious people out there using anonymity to be spiteful.
 

davidjgalloway

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It's why I'm sharing numbers as I can now, when nobody's gunning for me. If I keep making progress eventually I'll reach the point where I can't do that without risking it all.

Except I'd think that once you reached that stage, you wouldn't be risking it all, because one or even a hundred 1-star reviews would be a drop in the bucket. Right? In the sense that when you have a grand total of 5 reviews, a single-one star has a huge effect compared to if you have 5,000. And even if that did have an effect on casual browsers who go by those percentages, to have 5000 reviews--given how few readers post them--also means you have a huge fanbase who is not going to pay any attention to those 1-stars. (For comparison, take Riordan's The Lightning Thief, which has 4200-odd reviews on Amazon). Those folks are sold on you and your writing, and will not be browsing--they're reading your newsletter/web page and waiting eagerly for the next book issue.

I would think more likely is that the data just becomes irrelevant. If you have national or international name recognition, the value of your sales numbers to those just starting out seems very little. You've made it, everyone knows you made it, and giving the precise details of your six-figure income certainly is edging out of "this helps the community" and more into "this will probably make a lot of people feel like failures." It would still be interesting to see how you got there, of course, but there'd be nothing to prove at that level.
 

ASeiple

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Even people who make it that big can still be bothered by malice. Particularly from a community they feel kinship with, or are trying to help. I've seen it happen on kboards, and other writing sites. And I see how they withdraw and stop posting numbers.

Self-confidence is everything, especially if you need it to write properly. Why risk your peace of mind for people who want to screw you over purely out of spite?
 

lorna_w

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Author Earnings will give you information about the 10,000 self-publishers making not-awful money at Amazon, and he has a few posts about the other distributors. Someone took AE data and did this with it a couple years back: http://www.ameliasmith.net/an-analysis-of-the-author-earnings-survey-data/ A recent self-selected survey is here: https://www.writtenwordmedia.com/2017/06/07/100k-author/ There are all sorts of numbers floating around like that. Note how many of these articles say it's 16 books or 33 books that becomes the tipping point to full-time (depending on how you define that term) income. First step, then, to attempt to hit these averages would be: Write 16 novels. Be in the game for 3-5 years--also helpful. Note that Author Earnings keeps going back to the 200,000 titles that earn 60% of the money earned at Amazon. This means about 4 million other titles earn very little. If you have one or two or a dozen of those top 200K books, great. Most self-publishers don't, not regularly. Self-selected surveys are probably better than random people telling you random data points, as you asked for, which may or may not be total fabrications. I can't imagine you'll get a bank loan, and I can't imagine a loan officer would accept random data points as proof of anything, but good luck to you. I believe I saw information on Jami Gold's website, and perhaps a link, about writing a business plan as a writer. Perhaps that would be helpful to you.
 

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The Author Earnings Report is extremely flawed in all sorts of ways: not only is it reliant upon data supplied by those who want to be included, there are several issues in the maths which has been used in assessing the data, and with the logic used to draw conclusions from that data. We have several threads which discuss this at AW. But it's something to consider, sure.