Having serious problems learning formatting

F1RacerDan · Jul 10, 2017

Been on and off the forums a while now. Slowly learning as a new writer, however im have serious issues with formatting. I know there is a cheat sheet on here but gettin my head around it is frustrating me to the point where im not writing at all as im trying to learn formatting so badly.

Does anyone have any good guides or basic tips to help me out?

Maryn · Jul 10, 2017

Sure, I have something I've pasted all over the internet. Let me paste it here, just for you!

Font: Courier font (any kind), 12-point size, is never wrong. Times New Roman 12 is usually fine.
Double line spacing
1.0" margins left and right, producing a 60-character line on the average if you use Courier (ranges from 55 to 65 characters depending on where long words fall on the line)
Ragged/unjustified right margin
1.0" margins top and bottom, producing 25 lines per page using Courier
Indent paragraphs 0.5" using automatic formatting, not the tab key or blank spaces
Do not leave a blank line between paragraphs
No italic in Courier (underline what should appear in print as italic); use italics in TNR as needed
No hyphenation unless the hyphen would appear wherever the word happened to fall on the page, like in a phone number
Turn off widow and orphan protection, letting paragraphs break where the page ends
Sluglines in the upper right corner, starting with page 2, consisting of your real last name, a one-word abbreviation of your title, and the page number: Grisham, JURY, 2 or Twain (Clemens), FINN, 2
Start chapters about 1/3 of the way down the page, then a blank line before the text begins

You can see more details about format at http://www.writerswrite.com/journal/dec98/shunn.htm

Twick · Jul 10, 2017

F1RacerDan said:
Been on and off the forums a while now. Slowly learning as a new writer, however im have serious issues with formatting. I know there is a cheat sheet on here but gettin my head around it is frustrating me to the point where im not writing at all as im trying to learn formatting so badly.

Does anyone have any good guides or basic tips to help me out?

My advice is not to worry about formatting until you've written the story. Formatting is a publishing issue, not a writing one. If you're self-publishing, there are guides you can use, or even professional services. But until then, use a format that makes it easy for you to put words on the page. That's all you need.

be frank · Jul 10, 2017

F1RacerDan said:
Been on and off the forums a while now. Slowly learning as a new writer, however im have serious issues with formatting. I know there is a cheat sheet on here but gettin my head around it is frustrating me to the point where im not writing at all as im trying to learn formatting so badly.

Does anyone have any good guides or basic tips to help me out?

What do you mean by "formatting"?

Are we talking MS layout (a la Maryn and Twick's posts), or do you mean more like how to use dialogue tags and where to put paragraph breaks etc?

WriteMinded · Jul 10, 2017

Twick said:
My advice is not to worry about formatting until you've written the story. Formatting is a publishing issue, not a writing one. If you're self-publishing, there are guides you can use, or even professional services. But until then, use a format that makes it easy for you to put words on the page. That's all you need.

I agree. For myself, I write in a single-space, 0.5 indent, and I use a font I like. When the book is finished, I format it the way Maryn describes above. I work that way because, while I'm writing, I want to see as much of the MS as possible and the purty font makes me happy.

F1RacerDan said:
Been on and off the forums a while now. Slowly learning as a new writer, however im have serious issues with formatting. I know there is a cheat sheet on here but gettin my head around it is frustrating me to the point where im not writing at all as im trying to learn formatting so badly.

Does anyone have any good guides or basic tips to help me out?

Maybe my method will work for you. When you have the free moment, you can learn about formatting and how to get it done in whatever program you are using. That way you can get some writing done. On the other hand, maybe you are one of those people who must have everything set up before moving on. If so, your word processor may have a good help file that can guide you in how to follow Maryn's list.

Good luck to you.

F1RacerDan · Jul 10, 2017

be frank said:
What do you mean by "formatting"?

Are we talking MS layout (a la Maryn and Twick's posts), or do you mean more like how to use dialogue tags and where to put paragraph breaks etc?

Im so sorry! I meant dialogue formatting! i wrote that whilst on a busy train in sunny devon so missed the dialogue part

F1RacerDan · Jul 10, 2017

i meant dialogue tags etc. sorry for the confusion! however your advice i have saved for future reference

Devil Ledbetter · Jul 10, 2017

I wrote a blog post on dialog formatting and tagging recently. Bear in mind it's as much my opinionaty opinion as anything, but it might help you.

http://graceombry.com/how-not-to-tag-dialogue/

be frank · Jul 10, 2017

"Here's some dialogue," she said.

"But what if it's a question?" he asked.

"You also use a comma and a lower-case letter after the quotation marks," she said.

"Great, thanks." He tipped his hat. "But what if it's not a dialogue tag, like 'said' or 'asked'? What if it's an action beat like me tipping my hat just then?"

"Then use a full stop and a capital after the quote, because it's a new sentence." She raised her eyebrows and said, "There's not really a shortcut. You just have to learn it and practise it. And pay attention when you read."

Bacchus · Jul 10, 2017

be frank said:
"Here's some dialogue," she said.

"But what if it's a question?" he asked.

"You also use a comma and a lower-case letter after the quotation marks," she said.

"Great, thanks." He tipped his hat. "But what if it's not a dialogue tag, like 'said' or 'asked'? What if it's an action beat like me tipping my hat just then?"

"Then use a full stop and a capital after the quote, because it's a new sentence." She raised her eyebrows and said, "There's not really a shortcut. You just have to learn it and practise it. And pay attention when you read."

"Would it be ok to use action tags in different paragraphs?"
Bachhus fiddled nervously with his tie.
"Like this I mean?" he added.

F1RacerDan · Jul 10, 2017

be frank said:
"Here's some dialogue," she said.

"But what if it's a question?" he asked.

"You also use a comma and a lower-case letter after the quotation marks," she said.

"Great, thanks." He tipped his hat. "But what if it's not a dialogue tag, like 'said' or 'asked'? What if it's an action beat like me tipping my hat just then?"

"Then use a full stop and a capital after the quote, because it's a new sentence." She raised her eyebrows and said, "There's not really a shortcut. You just have to learn it and practise it. And pay attention when you read."

This is fantastic!! thank you so much

F1RacerDan · Jul 10, 2017

Bacchus said:
"Would it be ok to use action tags in different paragraphs?"
Bachhus fiddled nervously with his tie.
"Like this I mean?" he added.

I was literally about to ask about this but you nailed it for me

- - - Updated - - -

Devil Ledbetter said:
I wrote a blog post on dialog formatting and tagging recently. Bear in mind it's as much my opinionaty opinion as anything, but it might help you.

http://graceombry.com/how-not-to-tag-dialogue/

I will be sure to check this out, thanks

be frank · Jul 10, 2017

Bacchus said:
"Would it be ok to use action tags in different paragraphs?"
Bachhus fiddled nervously with his tie.
"Like this I mean?" he added.

If it's the same character both speaking and doing the action, you'd generally keep it all together. (Note: generally. I'll sometimes separate it out for emphasis or rhythm. Others' MMV.). Basic rule of thumb: new character, new graph. Same character, same graf.

"Would it be ok to use action tags in different paragraphs?" Bachhus fiddled nervously with his tie. "Like this I mean?" he added.

"I'd probably keep that particular example together," be frank said. "Keeping it together makes it clearer who's saying and doing what. But others might disagree."

Devil Ledbetter · Jul 10, 2017

be frank said:
"Here's some dialogue," she said.

"But what if it's a question?" he asked.

"You also use a comma and a lower-case letter after the quotation marks," she said.

"Great, thanks." He tipped his hat. "But what if it's not a dialogue tag, like 'said' or 'asked'? What if it's an action beat like me tipping my hat just then?"

"Then use a full stop and a capital after the quote, because it's a new sentence." She raised her eyebrows and said, "There's not really a shortcut. You just have to learn it and practise it. And pay attention when you read."

Excellent!

"Be sure to use a new paragraph when you change speakers," she said.

He scratched his bum. "Do I have to?"

"No. But if you don't, your readers may become confused about who is speaking. This is also true if you have another character doing something in a paragraph with dialogue that is not his. One paragraph per speaker makes it so your reader never has to go back to parse out who said or did what."

"Oh, you mean if one character says something and another character does something in the same paragraph, it can get confusing?" He gave her funny look. "Isn't it obvious?" "No, it's not obvious at all." "Who said that?" Somebody asked. "Hell if I know."

be frank · Jul 10, 2017

Devil Ledbetter said:
"Oh, you mean if one character says something and another character does something in the same paragraph, it can get confusing?" He gave her funny look. "Isn't it obvious?" "No, it's not obvious at all." "Who said that?" Somebody asked. "Hell if I know."

Bacchus · Jul 10, 2017

Devil Ledbetter said:
Excellent!

"Be sure to use a new paragraph when you change speakers," she said.

He scratched his bum. "Do I have to?"

"No. But if you don't, your readers may become confused about who is speaking. This is also true if you have another character doing something in a paragraph with dialogue that is not his. One paragraph per speaker makes it so your reader never has to go back to parse out who said or did what."

"Oh, you mean if one character says something and another character does something in the same paragraph, it can get confusing?" He gave her funny look. "Isn't it obvious?" "No, it's not obvious at all." "Who said that?" Somebody asked. "Hell if I know."

LoL

As well as being very informative, this thread is a jolly good read. I wonder whether there's a kindle edition planned...?

F1RacerDan · Jul 10, 2017

ok so what about if one character is saying an overly long piece of dialogue? Like the example below

“There is nobody here Harold! It’s just us. The king’s got plenty of guards around him and we are left to watch this side entrance that nobody bloody uses,” Droman complained. “i’ve been on guard duty all day with no sign of relief, and to be honest I am bored shitless.” he swung the sword up on to his shoulder, tapping the hilt. “The sword will be fine, my friend. Don’t you worry about that."

Is this correct?

Lakey · Jul 10, 2017

Devil Ledbetter said:
"Oh, you mean if one character says something and another character does something in the same paragraph, it can get confusing?" He gave her funny look. "Isn't it obvious?" "No, it's not obvious at all." "Who said that?" Somebody asked. "Hell if I know."

Mary McCarthy's The Group (whence my AW username) does this throughout, and for the life of me I cannot figure out why. It does make it more difficult to read than it has to be. Obviously I adore the book anyway, but I recommended it to a friend who didn't finish it, I think at least partly because of this annoying formatting quirk. Norman Mailer in his rather negative review of the book wrote that "the long paragraphs settle like bricks" and "all look the same" and "this is not a book in which to lose your place."

So, yeah, don't do this.

CJSimone · Jul 10, 2017

Bacchus said:
"Would it be ok to use action tags in different paragraphs?"
Bachhus fiddled nervously with his tie.
"Like this I mean?" he added.

be frank said:
If it's the same character both speaking and doing the action, you'd generally keep it all together. (Note: generally. I'll sometimes separate it out for emphasis or rhythm. Others' MMV.). Basic rule of thumb: new character, new graph. Same character, same graf.

"Would it be ok to use action tags in different paragraphs?" Bachhus fiddled nervously with his tie. "Like this I mean?" he added.

"I'd probably keep that particular example together," be frank said. "Keeping it together makes it clearer who's saying and doing what. But others might disagree."

Agreed, it's much clearer together. We don't know who's saying the first line of dialogue otherwise.

CJSimone · Jul 10, 2017

Devil Ledbetter said:
Excellent!

"Be sure to use a new paragraph when you change speakers," she said.

He scratched his bum. "Do I have to?"

"No. But if you don't, your readers may become confused about who is speaking. This is also true if you have another character doing something in a paragraph with dialogue that is not his. One paragraph per speaker makes it so your reader never has to go back to parse out who said or did what."

"Oh, you mean if one character says something and another character does something in the same paragraph, it can get confusing?" He gave her funny look. "Isn't it obvious?" "No, it's not obvious at all." "Who said that?" Somebody asked. "Hell if I know."

Yeah, I strongly dislike when two characters speak or one speaks and another acts in the same paragraph. I might've pointed it out excessively to someone I was just beta reading for, but it gets too confusing and bugs me as a reader.

chompers · Jul 10, 2017

F1RacerDan said:
ok so what about if one character is saying an overly long piece of dialogue? Like the example below

“There is nobody here Harold! It’s just us. The king’s got plenty of guards around him and we are left to watch this side entrance that nobody bloody uses,” Droman complained. “i’ve been on guard duty all day with no sign of relief, and to be honest I am bored shitless.” He swung the sword up on to his shoulder, tapping the hilt. “The sword will be fine, my friend. Don’t you worry about that."

Is this correct?

"Yes, you got it, kid, aside from that little change. Now, if you had a character who goes on and on endlessly and requires multiple paragraphs," he said, "then you would approach it differently. Now, me, I don't prattle on and on endlessly. I'm a man of few words. I keep it short and succinct, you know what I mean? But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. You know what I mean? No, I don't go on and on repeating the same things over and over again, no, sir.

"But sometimes -- other people, of course -- they just don't know when to shut up. So sometimes you have to break up their paragraphs. In that instance, you don't close the dialogue until the very end when they've finally stopped talking. You know what I mean? But note the new paragraph still gets opened with quotation marks. See what I did there? Gosh, I'm so good at keeping things short and simple."

Maggie Maxwell · Jul 10, 2017

F1RacerDan said:
ok so what about if one character is saying an overly long piece of dialogue? Like the example below

“There is nobody here Harold! It’s just us. The king’s got plenty of guards around him and we are left to watch this side entrance that nobody bloody uses,” Droman complained. “i’ve been on guard duty all day with no sign of relief, and to be honest I am bored shitless.” He swung the sword up on to his shoulder, tapping the hilt. “The sword will be fine, my friend. Don’t you worry about that."

Is this correct?

Depends on how overly wordy we're getting. For its size, your example is almost perfect aside from the capitalization I highlighted.

If we're talking multiple paragraphs of dialogue, though, there's a special way to handle that:

"This is paragraph one," Maxwell said. "Sometimes you get overly-talkative characters, who'll ramble on for paragraphs and paragraphs, maybe telling a story or maybe they just like to hear themselves talk. Whatever the case, when you finish a paragraph, you don't close the quotations. This shows the character is still going.

"In spite of that, though, when you start the next paragraph, you start a new quotation. As soon as they're done talking, whether it's an action or they're finished saying everything, then you close it."

F1RacerDan · Jul 10, 2017

chompers said:
"Yes, you got it, kid, aside from that little change. Now, if you had a character who goes on and on endlessly and requires multiple paragraphs," he said, "then you would approach it differently. Now, me, I don't prattle on and on endlessly. I'm a man of few words. I keep it short and succinct, you know what I mean? But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. You know what I mean? No, I don't go on and on repeating the same things over and over again, no, sir.

"But sometimes -- other people, of course -- they just don't know when to shut up. So sometimes you have to break up their paragraphs. In that instance, you don't close the dialogue until the very end when they've finally stopped talking. You know what I mean? But note the new paragraph still gets opened with quotation marks. See what I did there? Gosh, I'm so good at keeping things short and simple."

CJSimone · Jul 10, 2017

F1RacerDan said:
ok so what about if one character is saying an overly long piece of dialogue? Like the example below

“There is nobody here Harold! It’s just us. The king’s got plenty of guards around him and we are left to watch this side entrance that nobody bloody uses,” Droman complained. “I’ve been on guard duty all day with no sign of relief, and to be honest I am bored shitless.” He swung the sword up on to his shoulder, tapping the hilt. “The sword will be fine, my friend. Don’t you worry about that."

Is this correct?

It's correct (other than the two places that needed to be capitalized). But a couple of things to keep in mind:

1) You'd want to put "Droman complained" (or better yet just "Droman said") sooner, so you're identifying the speaker ASAP and readers don't have to hold off on knowing who the speaker is and possibly have to reread it.

2) Shorter chunks of dialogue are often better. They read more realistically and hold reader attention better. But that depends in part on genre and style and how often you have the long chunks of dialogue.

Lots of good questions, F1RacerDan.

CJ

Maggie Maxwell · Jul 10, 2017

"I just had a thought about dialogue formatting that's not common, but very useful: what to do when you have actions like this"—Maxwell waved her hands—"in the middle of a sentence. You want to use em dashes outside the quotation marks with no spaces between the quotation mark, the em dash, and the actions."

Having serious problems learning formatting

F1RacerDan

Maryn

At Sea

Twick

be frank

not a bloke, not named frank

WriteMinded

Derailed

F1RacerDan

F1RacerDan

Devil Ledbetter

Come on you stranger, you legend,

be frank

not a bloke, not named frank

Bacchus

F1RacerDan

F1RacerDan

be frank

not a bloke, not named frank

Devil Ledbetter

Come on you stranger, you legend,

be frank

not a bloke, not named frank

Bacchus

F1RacerDan

Lakey

professional dilettante

CJSimone

CJSimone

chompers

Maggie Maxwell

Making Einstein cry since 1994

F1RacerDan

CJSimone

Maggie Maxwell

Making Einstein cry since 1994