learner writer + overuse of dialogue

xanaphia · Jul 8, 2017

Personally I enjoy, especially over action scenes. I found the example in neandermagnon's post to be counterproductive, because I found the dialogue in that post more interesting to read than the brief recap. That recap came off as "telling", versus the "showing" of the dialogue. Granted, it is impossible to show everything, so you have ti figure out which details are important and which are superfluous.

chompers · Jul 8, 2017

You want to have a balance of dialogue and narrative because not only do people have different preferences, but because it also adds variety and rhythm to your story.

blacbird · Jul 8, 2017

xanaphia said:
Personally I enjoy, especially over action scenes. I found the example in neandermagnon's post to be counterproductive, because I found the dialogue in that post more interesting to read than the brief recap.

The recap wasn't great writing, or intended to be, mesuspects, because it was just a quick made-up example. As for the alternative dialogue, same observation. But, regards dialogue in general, the "Hi, how are you?" "I'm fine, how are you?" kinds of exchanges are virtually always a waste of time, from a reader standpoint. Then there's always the even more dreaded "As you know, Bob . . ." spoon-feed of information to the reader stuff. If you want to write good, crisp, energetic, effective dialogue, be on the look-out for this kind of stuff.

caw

CJSimone · Jul 8, 2017

blacbird said:
"Hi, how are you?" "I'm fine, how are you?" kinds of exchanges are virtually always a waste of time, from a reader standpoint. Then there's always the even more dreaded "As you know, Bob . . ." spoon-feed of information to the reader stuff. If you want to write good, crisp, energetic, effective dialogue, be on the look-out for this kind of stuff.

caw

Yep, even those of us with a preference for lots of dialogue don't want this kind.

Sammie · Jul 8, 2017

Dialogue-aholic. Yes, this is not an actual word but it should be. I always have a tendency to be more aware while reading a book when I hit the dialogue portion-- of course which is the purpose of it but its a show of the true nature of characters and I love getting to know them through this method the most.

blacbird's last reply totally hits the mark on the misuse of dialogue. You could jam-pack the book with dialogue but if its bland or an info dump then you are boring your reader.

Listen to your gut, you know when its a total overkill or not. If you're unsure go back to the feedback beta readers gave you.

Stephen Palmer · Jul 9, 2017

If it works, it works.

neandermagnon · Jul 9, 2017

xanaphia said:
Personally I enjoy, especially over action scenes. I found the example in neandermagnon's post to be counterproductive, because I found the dialogue in that post more interesting to read than the brief recap. That recap came off as "telling", versus the "showing" of the dialogue. Granted, it is impossible to show everything, so you have ti figure out which details are important and which are superfluous.

It depends on what's important to the story. I tried to make the dialogue boring and irrelevant, but I'm glad you liked it nevertheless. As suggested by blacbird both were made up in 5 mins. Any kind of dialogue can be interesting from a character development point of view, but if every scene in the book had all the irrelevant stuff like the "hi how are you?" "how's your day going?" parts of conversation it would very, very quickly get boring and clog up the story and prevent the plot from moving at an appropriate pace. One such conversation near the start of the story could be very interesting to show character development and worldbuilding, so I can see your point that in isolation such a conversation could be more interesting than an indirect speech summary.

Harlequin · Jul 9, 2017

I don't do any "hi how are you" type conversations, generally speaking.

However, that in itself is no guarantee that I'm not guilty of pointless content in a different way--and I suspect I am. One POV in particular is guilty of using dialogue to do infodumping (working on that).

For others, I think the relevance to what's going on is there, but isn't always clear, if that makes sense?

Eg there's a discussion on why learning the language of their people is forbidden, but it's included without sufficient context to clue the reader as to why this is relevant (one example I can think of).

Anyway, more things to fix

JCornelius · Jul 9, 2017

Aismov's books are just dialogues, basically

And yet these dialogues force us to imagine some of the most epic things (not quite) put down on paper.

BethS · Jul 9, 2017

neandermagnon said:
It depends on what's important to the story.

Just wanted to add that it's possible to have an utterly banal dialogue exchange become riveting, not because of what's said but because of what's not being said (i.e., there's heavy subtext). Or because of what's actually happening in the scene. For instance, I can imagine a scene where some serial killer is busy torturing his victim and in walks his mother (who is also his accomplice), and she asks him what he needs at the store because she's getting ready to go there, and so he tells her he's almost out of breakfast cereal, and she reminds him that he promised to mow Aunt Muriel's lawn...etc. A lot of boring, every day stuff a novelist would never include in any other story, but the fact that they can discuss these things while he's in midst of doing whatever he's doing to that poor victim...well.

Sammie · Jul 9, 2017

BethS said:
Just wanted to add that it's possible to have an utterly banal dialogue exchange become riveting, not because of what's said but because of what's not being said (i.e., there's heavy subtext). Or because of what's actually happening in the scene. For instance, I can imagine a scene where some serial killer is busy torturing his victim and in walks his mother (who is also his accomplice), and she asks him what he needs at the store because she's getting ready to go there, and so he tells her he's almost out of breakfast cereal, and she reminds him that he promised to mow Aunt Muriel's lawn...etc. A lot of boring, every day stuff a novelist would never include in any other story, but the fact that they can discuss these things while he's in midst of doing whatever he's doing to that poor victim...well.

lol I'm sorry I smiled because of how clever this was. It could totally work in this context. Nice one BethS

divine-intestine · Jul 21, 2017

Dialogue is fun to both read and write, but it has to progress story and/or characters. If it doesn't, then it's just meaningless chit-chat and needs to be cut.

Shirokitty · Jul 21, 2017

How much do you read books?

That probably sounds like an odd question, but I had the same problem at first. I read a lot of manga at the time, but rarely picked up an actual book with descriptive paragraphs. I think a combination of studying successful writing and working on my own helped to fix this problem for me.

Enoise · Jul 22, 2017

When I read dialogue-packed fiction, I find most of them lacking in depth (Just write a play instead). There are so many other beautiful elements of fiction and it would be cruel to rob your readers of those. But I think it's okay to have a dialogue-packed first draft since many writers find it as one of the easiest ways to get the idea out of their head. Then it can be repaired in subsequent drafts; you can seep in all those other beautiful things.

Harlequin · Jul 22, 2017

Shirokitty said:
How much do you read books?

That probably sounds like an odd question, but I had the same problem at first. I read a lot of manga at the time, but rarely picked up an actual book with descriptive paragraphs. I think a combination of studying successful writing and working on my own helped to fix this problem for me.

Not an odd question at all--a good one.

I read about 40 books a year, money allowing (the costs do add up!) and this year I've also done a LOT of beta reading on top (must be 10+ MS by now).

However many of the published novels I've read do feature heavy dialogue so that could be part of the influence. Finally got round to finishing Latro in the Mist this year and it's got loads dialogue. Too Like the Lightning (still in the middle of) has very lengthy dialogue sections as well. Perhaps it is just preference. In defense of those books, they're definitely not lacking in depth. (I might be, of course--but they definitely aren't.)

I put a up a short story a week or so ago in SciFi SYW which has a similar proportion of dialogue to my longer stuff, and although a couple people commented on dialogue being the focus, no one seemed to feel it was too much relative to what was going on. Possibly I'm just overthinking it a little.

M.C.Statz · Jul 22, 2017

Harlequin said:
Got measuring tapes? How long is that piece of string, then?

Concerned I use too much dialogue, especially for my genre. Yes, I know if the shoe fits it can be worn (although surely the moral of that allegory is that the shoe never fits, unless you're Cinderella, and I'm not...) but I do wonder if I rely on dialogue too much due to inexperience rather than because of style choice.

Thoughts?

Are you referring to the story with the robotic preacher? I think your dialog is a strength, not a weakness. If anything perhaps a little more narrative, but not less dialog, if that makes sense.

Harlequin · Jul 22, 2017

Cross posted!

Ah well, I meant my longer MS in the initial post; I hadn't written the short at that time. But the short follows a very similar structure to the long: 4 act, two climaxes--one dialogue, one action. I guess I fall into the same patterns

so the same worries, concerns, and issues still apply.

More narrative... yes, possibly. I'm always reluctant to add unnecessary words, but maybe what I consider necessary is off-centre.

M.C.Statz · Jul 22, 2017

Harlequin said:
Cross posted!

Ah well, I meant my longer MS in the initial post; I hadn't written the short at that time. But the short follows a very similar structure to the long: 4 act, two climaxes--one dialogue, one action. I guess I fall into the same patterns so the same worries, concerns, and issues still apply.

More narrative... yes, possibly. I'm always reluctant to add unnecessary words, but maybe what I consider necessary is off-centre.

In my not-so-humble-but-definitely-overrated opinion, I think you'd be best served by playing up your strengths. You can't please everyone.

https://theblog.okcupid.com/the-mathematics-of-beauty-51bd25ae9a75

Skip down the section headed "Not all 7s are the same". I think this concept can be widely applied. I'd aim to be a 10 to those who really appreciate the dialog, and forget about those who are turned off and think it's a 0.

When I say possibly more narrative, I just get the sense that the dialogue would be enhanced with having seen a little more context, if that makes sense. If you can slip in some exposition that will give some crucial context, and allow the dialogue to have greater impact, that is a win-win for you.

learner writer + overuse of dialogue

xanaphia

chompers

blacbird

CJSimone

Sammie

Stephen Palmer

neandermagnon

Nolite timere, consilium callidum habeo!

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

JCornelius

BethS

Sammie

divine-intestine

Hardened drinker

Shirokitty

Enoise

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

M.C.Statz

Little fish in a big pond

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

M.C.Statz

Little fish in a big pond