How is everyone?

Jan -- yeah, I've been there. Had ideas logjam in my head but nothing pokes out of the pack. In my case, I suspect it's a form of procrastination. If you have too many things to write, you end up not writing anything. I've tried writing my ideas down on slips of paper and picking one out of a hat, or working on two or three at once to see if anything hits. Neither of these really worked and I end up like you did, reading. That one works. I guarantee you'll come across some word or description or something in somebody else's book that'll trigger a whole new idea that will camp in your head and demand you write it. If not, you can still let yourself off the hook by calling it "market research." Wins all around.

Right now I've got my first edits for the Evernight short story. All she wants is a little extra background on the hero. This could be the easiest edit I've ever had. I'm going to stick to short stories with simple plots for a while.

Thanks, Elaine. I'm probably dreading that someone in a bad mood with time to kill will happen into SYW when I post. Someone who HATES historical romances with a passion (so to speak) and will proceed to eat me alive, commas and periods and all.

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This made me lol I would hope someone who hates romance doesn't come in and critique and then be mean about it We got your back Merri!

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Awww, Jan! That makes me feel so much better. And I LOVE the little Romance Forum Enforcers!

Another R.F.E. reporting for duty...

Final edits done and out! No cover art yet, but I've got a tentative release date of October 4. On to the next story!

Tomorrow is Batman Day at our local comic book store. One of the employees has access to a Batman costume, and he's got the height and build to really pull it off. The kids love it (and so do some of their moms)

Final edits done and out! No cover art yet, but I've got a tentative release date of October 4. On to the next story!

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Seriously? How do you DO this? I love how you roll. You just get it done and out there. Can I have just a smidge of whatever you got goin'? Hearty congratulations of your release date! Hurrah!

R.F.E's lol! Let us know when you SYW so we can check it. Even just share the first paragraph if you don't want to do a large section.

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Thank you, Jan and Marissa! I'm hoping to post this weekend but I gotta tell you...I'm dog tired of this prologue. The more I work it, the longer it gets, and the less satisfying, and the more problematical and AGHHHHH!!! That's the sound of me tearing my hair out.

Doesn't bode well for the many chapters to come. I've honestly been thinking of binning it. Just doin' one of those big, lazy, slow-motion slam dunks with it right into the old shredder.

Maybe that's normal and everyone feels like this at some point...

It helps to write really short stories. Less chance of getting stuck.

And remember: caffeine is our friend.

MerriTudor said:

Thank you, Jan and Marissa! I'm hoping to post this weekend but I gotta tell you...I'm dog tired of this prologue. The more I work it, the longer it gets, and the less satisfying, and the more problematical and AGHHHHH!!! That's the sound of me tearing my hair out.

Doesn't bode well for the many chapters to come. I've honestly been thinking of binning it. Just doin' one of those big, lazy, slow-motion slam dunks with it right into the old shredder.

Maybe that's normal and everyone feels like this at some point...

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I'm having this with chapter 1 of one of my novels. I spent about 1.5 hours editing 5 paragraphs the other day. It took me weeks to rewrite it (it's that one I mentioned earlier that I got the 'honest' feedback on). I will say that it's vastly improved from what it was (in my opinion anyway, which could be totally wrong), but it's still one heck of a plague on my houses right now!

I'm having this with chapter 1 of one of my novels. I spent about 1.5 hours editing 5 paragraphs the other day. It took me weeks to rewrite it (it's that one I mentioned earlier that I got the 'honest' feedback on). I will say that it's vastly improved from what it was (in my opinion anyway, which could be totally wrong), but it's still one heck of a plague on my houses right now!

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I know only too well what you're going through. It's like slogging through a swamp wearing combat boots filled with wet cement. But it sounds like it was worth it for you. Have yourself a good, stiff drink on me!

See, it's that "honest" feedback that terrifies me. That it's "boring" and the reader started "skimming" and the whole thing is a big pile of "infodump". I checked out the Romance SYW archives and found the most common criticism is infodumping. So where's the line between infodump and world building, characterization and stage setting? It's like you have to slam right into the heart of the story in the first paragraph with some earth-shattering event, like an action movie where an entire city block is blown up before the opening credits. Never mind two-thirds of Moby Dick, the story really starts where the whale crashes into the ship! It's like writing a Cliff Notes version of your own novel.

OK, OK, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit. But I keep writing and then cutting because I'm so worried that I'm infodumping, and then lose all sense of the 18th century world I'm trying to create. I don't dare even mention what anyone is wearing! And how can you establish a character without a little backstory? I'm getting very confused as to what's too much and what's not enough. So my prologue is pretty much constipated at this point!

Yeah, that's the problem with getting straight to the action - you then get complaints that people don't understand the setting and don't know who's who, etc. Which of course is a valid complaint for them to make. So it is a matter of striking a balance between the setup and the action. It's no wonder my first chapters go through so many changes and get edited to within an inch of their lives, I guess.

There's definitely a fine art to having the action but then interweaving the occasional sentence that gives the background info needed. Some of the comments I've had after revising chapters also suggest that people want to know everything at once (without the bog-down info dump of course) rather than reading on and finding out bits and pieces in later chapters. So in cases like that, it can be hard to know what info is most important to introduce up front, when the MC has a lot of stuff going on that could be considered important.

Yeah, that's the problem with getting straight to the action - you then get complaints that people don't understand the setting and don't know who's who, etc. Which of course is a valid complaint for them to make. So it is a matter of striking a balance between the setup and the action.

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Precisely! The next most frequent criticism I unearthed was that the reader didn't care about the characters because they were "cardboard cutouts". Well, if you have to write characters stripped to the bone to keep the action moving for people with short attention spans who don't want any backstory, them's the breaks! It's the old damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't conundrum.

Yep. Gotta get that balance, and also realize that it will never be a perfect balance and you won't please both camps.

Yep, that's right. I think you can get it pretty close though. Or maybe that's my wishful thinking coming into it after beating a couple of my chapters into 'submission' on the SYW forums with much help from critiquers.

Yep, that's right. I think you can get it pretty close though. Or maybe that's my wishful thinking coming into it after beating a couple of my chapters into 'submission' on the SYW forums with much help from critiquers.

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I'm looking forward to seeing what you've done! I don't critique your submissions because I don't know what the heck I'm doing myself and would only do more harm than good, but I do enjoy reading them. And seeing how you work in the recommendations from crits is very helpful.

MerriTudor said:

I don't critique your submissions because I don't know what the heck I'm doing myself and would only do more harm than good, but I do enjoy reading them. And seeing how you work in the recommendations from crits is very helpful.

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I've hung around QLH most of the years I've been on AW. We see this a lot, and the response is always the same: you're a reader, so you can critique. You're fully capable of saying, "something feels off about that sentence" or "You're missing a period here." From the writer's side, all information is good information. That doesn't make it 100% expert, or mean that the writer is going to act on the critique, but knowing someone read through and noticed something is good information to have, one way or another.

And the thing about learning by watching progress is really true. We see it a lot in QLH, too, where most often a new version comes along to read. That doesn't happen as frequently in the genre SYW's because people tend to take the critique, work it, and then either move on in the book, or submit the story.

Bottom line, don't be afraid to critique. Maybe once you do that, you'll have less trepidation about being critiqued, too.

^^ What ElaineA said. Also, I've found that I learn a lot more about how to be a better writer from giving others critiques on their work rather than from receiving them.

I've hung around QLH most of the years I've been on AW. We see this a lot, and the response is always the same: you're a reader, so you can critique. You're fully capable of saying, "something feels off about that sentence" or "You're missing a period here." From the writer's side, all information is good information. That doesn't make it 100% expert, or mean that the writer is going to act on the critique, but knowing someone read through and noticed something is good information to have, one way or another.

Bottom line, don't be afraid to critique. Maybe once you do that, you'll have less trepidation about being critiqued, too.

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Thanks, Elaine! You're right - I can contribute from a reader's point of view. I think I get a bit intimidated because, always coming late to the party, I see very detailed and insightful crits lined up ahead of mine and start reading them and then second guess myself. Like, "Wow! I really liked that part about the rogue elephant hijacking a Greyhound bus, but everyone says it should be cut, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about!" What the heck. I'll give it a go more often. And you're right, it's a good way to desensitize myself to being critiqued.

Also, I've found that I learn a lot more about how to be a better writer from giving others critiques on their work rather than from receiving them.

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Yep! I can definitely see myself stumbling over something in someone else's writing and then thinking, "Whoa...I do the same thing! Better knock it off!"

I do get conflicting advice on those forums, but that's okay - what someone has to say that's different to everyone else may resonate with me, and for all I know it might make something clearer in my mind that needs to be improved, and as a result help to fix some of the other problems other had mentioned. And no, I don't always incorporate every bit of advice I get, but if it makes sense I will run with it. If it doesn't, I'll ask for further information to try to understand what the critiquer means and why they said what they said.

Everyone has been very helpful particularly in the romance forum I think - they're all very patient and willing to give lots of time to trying to help nut out any problems that may be identified, etc.

I had an interesting experience recently where one of the critiquers couldn't quite find the words she wanted to express what she meant about my chapter, and I wasn't getting what she meant either, even though she tried a few times to articulate it - then after a bit of back and forth with her, a new critiquer came along with their first comment and put it into words really well, and suddenly I understood what the problem was - and the first critiquer said, "Yes, that's what I meant !!" So it can be difficult sometimes to articulate what you're thinking or trying to say about someone's chapter or paragraph or sentence, but it's still worth the effort of saying it.

I know that in my own critiques I've sometimes said something as simple as, "I can't really explain WHY this sentence doesn't sound right, but to me it just doesn't..." LOL So I'm not sure if that's helpful or not, but at least it's pointing the writer to something that feels off to one reader in some mysterious way. It might draw their attention to something they recognise themselves that needs fixing.

Jan -- I got my cover art. It's over there as my avatar. Enjoy.

Don't worry, "Master Sam" will be back in about a week or so. I enjoy looking at him too much to leave him off for long.

Merri -- this particular short story line has a word limit of 16K, so there wasn't much room for infodumps. Maybe that's why the editor requested more back story on the lead. I ended up having to add an infodump. The story I'm working on now is much longer (my two leads finally met, and we're 8000 words in) and requires worldbuilding, so I'm going to have infodumps all over the place. In a couple months I'll be going through editing hell on the second draft. I'm paying attention to everything you say here, in the hopes of making it all less painful.

I know that in my own critiques I've sometimes said something as simple as, "I can't really explain WHY this sentence doesn't sound right, but to me it just doesn't..." LOL So I'm not sure if that's helpful or not, but at least it's pointing the writer to something that feels off to one reader in some mysterious way. It might draw their attention to something they recognise themselves that needs fixing.

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See! I can do that. When my husband moves furniture, I tell him, "Noooo...that just doesn't work there." "Why not?" "I dunno...it just doesn't. Can you move it other there? Nope, that's not it, either!" Yoghurtelf, now you have to post something so that I can practice on you.

Merri -- this particular short story line has a word limit of 16K, so there wasn't much room for infodumps. Maybe that's why the editor requested more back story on the lead. I ended up having to add an infodump. The story I'm working on now is much longer (my two leads finally met, and we're 8000 words in) and requires worldbuilding, so I'm going to have infodumps all over the place. In a couple months I'll be going through editing hell on the second draft. I'm paying attention to everything you say here, in the hopes of making it all less painful.

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There's nothing quite as painful as editing hell, is there? It's like someone handing you some gardening shears and ordering you to take off some of those fingers because you have 10 and you only need 6. Choose wisely!

I'm still trying to puzzle through the infodump dilemma. The prologue I'm working on is basically characters infodumping all over each other. Projectile infodumping! That's really the function of a prologue, isn't it? To get some of that pesky backstory out of the way right up front as quickly and concisely and in as entertaining a manner as possible. I'm managing to get a lot of it out in dialogue without resorting to the "As you know, Jack..." prop but there are time when a good block of clean exposition is the only thing that makes any sense.

MerriTudor said:

That's really the function of a prologue, isn't it? To get some of that pesky backstory out of the way right up front as quickly and concisely and in as entertaining a manner as possible. I'm managing to get a lot of it out in dialogue without resorting to the "As you know, Jack..." prop but there are time when a good block of clean exposition is the only thing that makes any sense.

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Well, not necessarily. A prologue is like an "amuse-bouche": it can ask a story question, be used to signal a story's theme, set the stage for the rest of the story--but needs to eventually tie back into the story's action and not just be a place to park an infodump. Good prologues are slippery devils.

MerriTudor said:

I'm still trying to puzzle through the infodump dilemma. The prologue I'm working on is basically characters infodumping all over each other. Projectile infodumping! That's really the function of a prologue, isn't it? To get some of that pesky backstory out of the way right up front as quickly and concisely and in as entertaining a manner as possible. I'm managing to get a lot of it out in dialogue without resorting to the "As you know, Jack..." prop but there are time when a good block of clean exposition is the only thing that makes any sense.

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The questions to ask yourself are: does the reader need to know all of this, and if so, do they need to know this right now?

Many writers make the mistake of infodumping because they've spent all this time doing character worksheets or research or world building and they don't want any of it to go to waste! But it's really important to take a hard look and see if the info dumped is something that helps the reader understand the characters better or does it help you understand the character better? This directly relates to what Hemingway called the iceberg theory. Essentially, what a reader learns about a character or town or job in a story is only a small part of what appears on the page. But all that info that lies under the surface is what helps a writer make a character or place or job come alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceberg_Theory


Re: Prologues -- You're right that sometimes exposition is the only thing that will work. I've got one in a WIP right now. But you have to be sure it creates one hell of a tease that makes the reader say "Oh my God I need to read this whole thing right now." If it doesn't do that, get rid of it.

My second book has a prologue which shows an encounter between the hero and heroine that ends with her slapping him. Chapter one begins six years later where they find out they're working together. The prologue works because the exchange between the two characters had a greater impact by showing and not telling. It also explained the history and tension between them.

Prologues aren't the worst thing ever like so many people make the out to be, but you have to make certain it is necessary and works for your book.

Ooops..double post but I thought I'd just say a quick hello ::waves:: and give a quick recommendation.

Also, if you ever have the chance to take a Lisa Cron workshop... do. Our local RWA chapter hosted her this month and she gave a 90 minute presentation on five questions to ask yourself when beginning a new WIP. Afterwards, we had big name authors in our chapter ask if she could comeback to do a weekend workshop, she's just that amazing and really gets the creative juices going. I have both of her books WIRED FOR STORY and STORY GENIUS and these are fantastic books on the craft of writing.

Ooh, I went to her workshop at RWA this summer and it was amazing--exhausting, but amazing.