Independent clauses and commas

cooeedownunder said:

I understand what an independent clause is and where the commas are supposed to go though I might sometimes misplace them.

My question refers to independent clauses where one or both are short. I have been taught that a comma goes between all independent clauses but am hearing that it isn't necessary when one or both clauses are short.

I'd likely separate the two clauses below, but for example purposes I would be inclined to put the comma in the sentence below, but should it be there?

Tom ate pineapple, and Paul decided not to eat anything.

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Yep.

And is one of the Seven Magical Coordinating Conjunctions: and, but, or, nor, for, so, yet.

The comma goes before the conjunction. The conjunction coordinates between two independent clauses.

BUT

If one of the Seven Magical Coordinating Conjunctions isn't present to coordinate between two independent clauses, you have to use either a period or a semicolon at the end of the first independent clauses.

cooeedownunder said:

I understand what an independent clause is and where the commas are supposed to go though I might sometimes misplace them.

My question refers to independent clauses where one or both are short. I have been taught that a comma goes between all independent clauses but am hearing that it isn't necessary when one or both clauses are short.

I'd likely separate the two clauses below, but for example purposes I would be inclined to put the comma in the sentence below, but should it be there?

Tom ate pineapple, and Paul decided not to eat anything.

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Commas do not go between independent clauses *unless* a comma is accompanying a conjunction, as AW Admin explains above.

Independent clauses can be dealt with in three ways, basically:

-- by simply making sentences out of them, which is fine but you begin to sound like a third grader after a while.
-- by joining them with semicolons.
-- by joining them with a comma followed by a conjunction.

If you don't use a comma-conjunction to join two independent clauses (of whatever length), you're creating a comma splice, and the punctuation police will send you a citation. Four citations and you may be detained until you can explain the differences between less and fewer and hyphens and em dashes, and pay a small fine.

cooeedownunder said:

Ah, so basically, when I have critted away from here, I have been told to ignore bad English.

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What imbeciles would tell you that, and why would you pay attention to them?

caw

Oh, those people -- the same ones who say it doesn't matter if your manuscript has spelling or grammar errors because "no one cares about that anymore," or "you understand what I mean," or "they make programs to fix it," or if your ms. is wildly overlong, because someone once published a gigantic book.

Do not listen to those people.

cornflake said:

Oh, those people -- the same ones who say it doesn't matter if your manuscript has spelling or grammar errors because "no one cares about that anymore," or "you understand what I mean," or "they make programs to fix it," or if your ms. is wildly overlong, because someone once published a gigantic book.

Do not listen to those people.

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That kind of advice reminds me of the movie Ed Wood, where the titular director insisted movies were about the "big picture," and so didn't care about things like cardboard props being knocked over or lines flubbed in a take - the audience doesn't notice little stuff like that. At the end, there's a scene of him watching the debut of Plan 9 From Outer Space, and saying how this was the one he'd be remembered for... and, tragically, you can tell he's seeing the movie he was making in his head, a great sci-fi epic for the ages, instead of what everyone else saw: one of the most famously bad movies by a man whose name would become synonymous with B-grade/D-grade cinema.

Insist that spelling, grammar, and basic readable English doesn't matter, and you, too, could be remembered... as Ed Wood is remembered.

blacbird said:

What imbeciles would tell you that, and why would you pay attention to them?

caw

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There seems to be sort of a sliding rule with regards to coordinating conjunctions before independent clauses that are short and which follow directly from the first (this last seems rather arbitrary to me). It's never wrong to put the comma there, but it can be fine to omit it as well.

The argument is that it would be acceptable to omit the comma in a sentence like this: Sue went to the store but she didn't buy anything.

https://english.stackexchange.com/q...re-a-coordinating-conjunction-uniting-the-two

This seems to be down to in-house style or something, because I've noticed plenty of trade-published novels that repeatedly (so it's not just an isolated mistake) omit commas, sometimes even from places I was most definitely taught to put them, including in front of coordinating conjunctions that separate two longer, more complex sentences and to set off nonrestrictive clauses. According to some, the current trend in American style (not sure about the UK) is towards minimalism with punctuation, omitting it when not needed for clarity.

http://grammartips.homestead.com/compoundsentences.html

I thought I had a pretty firm grasp of comma rules once upon a time, but I'm starting to second guess myself, because I've been seeing more and more novels where the author (or editor) omitted them from sentences where I would have included them. I've been most annoyed when commas are omitted from sentences where the presence or absence of a comma does change its meaning and I have to read a couple of times to get the meaning. I still choose to err on the side of using those (arguably) optional commas, because sometimes it's very subjective whether or not a sentence's meaning is clear without them. I hope this isn't the reason why no one has wanted to publish any of my fiction yet.

My previous comment was in reference to the poster having been told to "ignore bad English", not to the specifics about the comma usage.

caw

I am bad with commas, but your example sentence is (IMO) correct with the comma. It would be incorrect without the comma.

Do not ignore grammar or punctuation if you want to be published. Do not ignore grammar or punctuation if you want to self publish. Do not ignore grammar or punctuation if you want people to read your writing.

Just a suggestion or three.

I was told of recent that the comma is needed when using a conjunction between two independent clauses but can be omitted when its joined to a dependent clause. It doesn't phase me too much either way as it's not very jarring to me personally. Hope that helps and its correct

Roxxsmom said:

The argument is that it would be acceptable to omit the comma in a sentence like this: Sue went to the store but she didn't buy anything.

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Is that just for US English? Grammar and spelling differ between regions, and it's sometimes difficult to keep track of everything. English isn't my native tongue but I decided early to adopt UK English. I constantly get moaned at by Americans who don't seem to know about the regional differences.

I don't know even what an independent clause comma something is >.>

But then I also failed grammar at school (literally, got a grade of 30 by end of the year).

divine-intestine said:

Is that just for US English? Grammar and spelling differ between regions, and it's sometimes difficult to keep track of everything. English isn't my native tongue but I decided early to adopt UK English. I constantly get moaned at by Americans who don't seem to know about the regional differences.

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Even in US English there are different standards and styles, particularly when it comes to "exceptions" to the rule, as would be the case for the example given (Sue went to the store but she didn't buy anything.) The purpose of punctuation in any culture is to help transfer the idea from the writer in as pure a manner as possible to the reader, i.e. what's implied should be what's inferred. Grammar and punctuation are tools for the job, but in my opinion, creative liberties are permissible when being pedantic about grammar would not act in the spirit of the rule or (at least with creative writing) negatively affect the meaning or rhythm.

I sometimes use the comma to imply a pacing. I have no idea if it reads the way I intend, but I feel comma's tend to slow things down in my own head. Four examples pace from fastest to slowest (in my mind):

The doorbell rang. Katie ran down the stairs while Martin hid the gun.

The doorbell rang. Katie ran down the stairs and Martin hid the gun.

The doorbell rang. Katie ran down the stairs, and Martin hid the gun.

The doorbell rang. Katie ran down the stairs. Martin hid the gun.

Obviously perfect grammar isn't that important to me. I rarely write any sentences in prose that couldn't be very easily understood, if grammatically incorrect, with the removal of all commas, but I understand with certain styles that isn't always the case. I personally use this rule of thumb: if the meaning changes by adding or removing commas, rewrite the sentence.

The main objective in using or not using a comma is to aid the reader in correctly understanding what your sentence means.

Commas have no bearing on pacing.

M.C.Statz said:

I sometimes use the comma to imply a pacing. I have no idea if it reads the way I intend, but I feel comma's tend to slow things down in my own head. Four examples pace from fastest to slowest (in my mind):

The doorbell rang. Katie ran down the stairs while Martin hid the gun.

The doorbell rang. Katie ran down the stairs and Martin hid the gun.

The doorbell rang. Katie ran down the stairs, and Martin hid the gun.

The doorbell rang. Katie ran down the stairs. Martin hid the gun.

Obviously perfect grammar isn't that important to me. I rarely write any sentences in prose that couldn't be very easily understood, if grammatically incorrect, with the removal of all commas, but I understand with certain styles that isn't always the case. I personally use this rule of thumb: if the meaning changes by adding or removing commas, rewrite the sentence.

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M.C.Statz said:

I sometimes use the comma to imply a pacing. I have no idea if it reads the way I intend, but I feel comma's tend to slow things down in my own head. Four examples pace from fastest to slowest (in my mind):

The doorbell rang. Katie ran down the stairs while Martin hid the gun.

The doorbell rang. Katie ran down the stairs and Martin hid the gun.

The doorbell rang. Katie ran down the stairs, and Martin hid the gun.

The doorbell rang. Katie ran down the stairs. Martin hid the gun.

Obviously perfect grammar isn't that important to me. I rarely write any sentences in prose that couldn't be very easily understood, if grammatically incorrect, with the removal of all commas, but I understand with certain styles that isn't always the case. I personally use this rule of thumb: if the meaning changes by adding or removing commas, rewrite the sentence.

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What? No no no. That means you'd have to rewrite every list sentence (or every sentence in which an Oxford comma is crucial to interpretation). As one small example.

M.C.Statz said:

I personally use this rule of thumb: if the meaning changes by adding or removing commas, rewrite the sentence.

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Why? Commas are aid, not a infestation. (Which doesn't mean they can't be an infestation, if used liberally and randomly. But that's not what we're talking about here, I don't think.)

I love the idea of commas as an infestation. I'm sure that could be the basis for some kind of absurdist metafiction story.

Harlequin said:

What? No no no. That means you'd have to rewrite every list sentence (or every sentence in which an Oxford comma is crucial to interpretation). As one small example.

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I will now go through my manuscript find any list sentences and extinguish their lives. (Irony fully intended)

I jest, but I really wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a single example in my manuscript.

As implied by all the qualifications in my post, I suspected I would be firmly in the minority.

To cite an author we read in common;

"All this and much else besides, lovely and appalling, blood red and living green, yellow, blue, white, and velvet black, with minglings of other colours and colours he had never known."

Would that benefit from rewriting? ;-) The meaning does change if commas are removed as it is effectively a list sentence.

Sorry, not hassling you. Okay, maybe needling a bit. >.> But I'm intrigued mostly, and arguing for the toss. How do you feel about semicolons?

Harlequin said:

To cite an author we read in common;

"All this and much else besides, lovely and appalling, blood red and living green, yellow, blue, white, and velvet black, with minglings of other colours and colours he had never known."

Would that benefit from rewriting? ;-) The meaning does change if commas are removed as it is effectively a list sentence.

Sorry, not hassling you. Okay, maybe needling a bit. >.> But I'm intrigued mostly, and arguing for the toss. How do you feel about semicolons?

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Oh, god, no. I never meant to suggest universality to my rule of thumb. As I said, "with certain styles this isn't always the case." I was probably being a little kind on myself. Perhaps I should have said "This probably doesn't work in most cases." I can't imagine BOTNS without the long flowing sentences. (Btw, I picked up one of the books you recommended and am loving it).

But the way I write, especially 3rd person, it's totally doable. From this morning:

"Jessica pushed open the door. The church was dark and smelled of mold and mildew. The stained glass windows were broken out. There was a heavy coating of thick dust and grime. It was almost glued to the pews and railings. Jessica approached the altar, looking up at the crucifixion. 'Our Lord and Savior' the inscription read."

I cringe pasting this, because I see some obvious room for improvement, but just as an example. One comma, and it probably wouldn't be missed too badly if I exterminated it.

Edit: Specifically, the Oxford comma and appositives are the ambiguous types of situations I tend to just do a rewrite on.
"Aimee fell to her knees, howling. She couldn't believe what she had done. She loved her parents, Luke and Mary."
Pretty sure Luke and Mary are the parents, right? The author would have surely used an Oxford comma otherwise, right? RIGHT?!?!?

"The poet Medusa possessed a unique quality. Anyone who stayed for the couplet turned to stone."
How many poets are there? Is it just Medusa? I'm going to panic.

Two words you may find useful:

Hypotaxis and Parataxis.

Parataxis Gk. “Placing side by side”; opposite of hypotaxis. Clauses and phrases arranged independently, so that they may stand alone; sometimes without the usual connectives, as here:

Julius Caesar said:

I came, I saw, I conquered.

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Hypotaxis Gk. “Subjection” Clauses or phrases arranged so that they depend on each other for meaning. It is the opposite of Parataxis.

Sir Thomas Browne; Hydrotahia said:

Antiquity held too light thoughts from objects of mortality, while some drew provocatives of mirth from anatomies, and jugglers showed tricks with skeletons, when fiddlers made not so pleasant mirth as fencers, and men could sit with quiet stomachs while hanging was played before them.

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