This ought to be interesting

Mondo said:

I had a brilliant response to your excellent thread, but it failed to post and I lost it.

It would have changed your life.

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cornflake said:

The bolded is absolutely untrue.

There is certainly treatment that works, and works well.

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Programs only work if an addict WANTS to get help. You can lead a horse to water....

Here's the thing, if you participate in risky behavior you risk dying. As for the needle exchange program, it's a joke. Here's the thing it's not an exchange program at all, it's a walk in and get bundles of needles for free program and then ditch those used needles in school grounds, sidewalks, harbourfronts and bathrooms all around town. It's been a major issue where I live. What we need is a safe injection site, not a needle exchange. The health unit needs to get a grip and recognize their program has major flaws.

Recently a friend of mine called because her teenage son has been using drugs and she doesn't know what to do. She also has a young teen daughter. He's refusing help and she's kicked him out. I told her as tough as that is, her priority is keeping her daughter safe and away from the influence of her brother. Tough love. It sucks and I feel her pain, but until he wants help she has to protect her daughter. The son at this point is a lost cause which is harsh and heartbreaking but its the reality. It would be different if she didn't have other kids at home, but she does.

Addicts come in all walks. I know wealthy addicts with good families who choose drugs over family. It's devastating. Sometimes families have to walk away, especially when those addicts abuse you and steal from you. This is what happened to my friend. It's not fair to the other child in the family.

Its a complex issue for sure and as a nurse who wants to mend people and make people better its a struggle to watch.

Mondo said:

Yeah. Then again, so are kids starving to death in the Third World, but that's been ignored for decades.

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Kids aren't starving because UNICEF is intentionally withholding food.

Its not a law yet.

It all boils down to: will the taxpayers be willing to give up additional income or see local services cut in order to reduce the number of junkies who die each year?

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That's a far different question than from the article in the OP. It's one thing if you run out, it's another if you say "not going to even try."

Mondo said:

I have never concerned myself with those sort of questions. I've never really worried about the safety of the world. Pot is illegal, so if I catch someone with a testable quantity I arrested them for it. The instant the report hits the basket (literally in the early days) I forget about it until a subpoena shows up.

The first rule of police work (there are about a dozen first rules) is that you don't get emotionally involved. I can't tell you how many arrests I've made, number of people I've put in prison, or anything like that. That isn't important. We had an officer funeral recently and a group of us were standing in our dress uniforms trying to remember what our ribbons were for, and why we got them. Turns out I have seven lifesaving awards. I thought it was a mistake until I checked my file and found the paperwork. Cost me lunch because I bet my boss he had tallied it up wrong. Turns out we have a medal for delivering a baby in the field. I found that out when I asked a newly-minted hotdog Corporal what the ribbon was.

In short, you're asking the wrong questions. Career LEOs generally do not think that way. LEOs on the Chief track will talk that way, but who knows what they actually believe,



Ok.



We have a city ord about outdoor cooking on grills. Back in my patrolman days I issued numerous citations for cooking with the wrong sort of grill. Just like the young hotdogs we have in Patrol these days do now.

Its all how the game is played.

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Seriously? So as long as it's on the books, you enforce it? No questions asked? Do you really have that much faith in the infallability of lawmakers?

What if, instead of a citation, that grilling law earned people jail time? Decades of prison time? What if it earned them the death penalty?

There must be SOME point at which you'd hesitate to enforce a law or follow an order because it clashed with your own internal sense of right and wrong, justice and injustice. You're not a robot, and you're not just your job title.

And if you've never considered those questions... well, maybe you should. Because what you describe as a "game" can potentially destroy families and careers, and even end lives. It's not a responsibility to be taken lightly.

Mondo said:

I've never trusted UNICEF. But the kids are still starving, while the USA rewards farmers for not growing food to keep the markets stable.

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You know what i mean. Don't side step it.

The effect on the addict is the same.

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Agreed. But i believe there is a difference between not having enough resources to go around versus viewing addicts as human filth that don't even warrant sending an ambulance to do something. What's the protocol for an EMT if they arrive to an OD and don't have their reversal drug? Sit back and watch? They can't do something like, i don't know, TAKE THEM TO A HOSPITAL?

I've never understood the idea that one type of neglect is socially acceptable but another is barbaric. If an agency says 'Screw them', its horrible, but of another agency quietly budgets only 70% of the NARCAN that is needed, then that is all right.

It seems to me that you are punishing honesty and rewarding deception.

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See what i said above.

Mondo said:

Food isn't getting sent to those kids. How many tons of food does the USA destroy a year?

Dead is dead. If Human life has a constant value, explain why this is ignored.




I don't see anyone declaring that addicts are human filth. Did I miss something in the article?

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The whole thing about dispatch wouldn't send an ambulance kind of gave that impression.

So, do you think no aid should be sent?

Mondo said:

Not to me.

The article did not suggest that no aid would be sent, it concerned the administration of expensive NARCAN.

I think you are jumping to very negative assumptions.

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From the article:

City councilman Dan Picard proposed that after the first two overdose revivals, a person must perform community service that equals the amount of money spent on the response. If the community service hasn’t been completed before the third strike, a dispatch would not be made.

"If the dispatcher determines that the person who's overdosed is someone who's been part of the program for two previous overdoses and has not completed the community service and has not cooperated in the program, then we wouldn't dispatch,” Picard said.

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They won't dispatch.

Do you agree with this idea or not?

You even recognized this in your OP.

A city in Ohio is dealing with the high cost of heroin overdoses by proposing a plan to deny revival to addicts who have had three revivals without performing community service.

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Mondo said:

If people don't take care of their citations, they go to jail.

So yes, I've put people in jail for stuff like that. BTW, jail and prison are two vastly different things.

I wouldn't follow an unlawful order, but then, I don't recall ever being given one. You can't be ordered to make an arrest in any case.

So far I haven't encountered any law I can't live with. Given our system I don't expect to encounter one.

You seem to see a lot of drama in this business. There isn't.

Introspection is not a trait you see in career LEOs; the job isn't geared for those sort of people.

Only in Hollywood and press releases do you have police officers worried about justice and that sort of thing.

The reality is that as a group we like excitement and variety. And police work is mostly fun.

The real danger is when you see officers start question things like the logic behind the laws, the way the system operates, why the guilty go free, why people die for no reason whatsoever. Those are the officers who are on the path to start looking to make a personal profit, who blow up and shoot someone sixteen times, eat their own gun, or just quit.

If the idea of going to work wearing body armor, 2 or 3 handguns, a baton, OC, two pairs of handcuffs, three handcuff keys, two knives, a tourniquet, a radio, a audio transmitter, and carrying an assault rifle, beanbag shotgun, and a go-bag with enough stuff to survive a thirty minute firefight isn't reason enough for you, seek another career.

It is all about having fun.

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I'm perfectly aware of the difference between jail and prison, and have edited my post accordingly.

No, I don't think there's much drama on the police side of things, as least as you describe it. You go to work, issue your citations, play soldier, and go home. Sure... that DOES sound like fun.

The people experiencing the "drama" are the ones who were sentenced to decades of prison for pot possession. Oh, your family is destitute without your income? Shouldn't have smoked that joint. Oh, your children grow up without a parent? Shouldn't have smoked that joint. Oh, your spouse can't take the pressure, divorces you, and marries someone else? Shouldn't have smoked that joint. Oh, you finally get out, and can't find a job? Shouldn't have smoked that joint.

Yeah... that sounds like drama to me. But I could see how you don't see it. You file your report and head back out and let the courts administer the punishments. So what if they (as Frank Zappa so succinctly put it) treat dandruff by decapitation? Not your problem, right? Them's the rules, after all, and you're fine with the rules.

Enjoying your work is a good thing. Performing your job ONLY because it's fun and ignoring the end results is a recipe for disaster.

If you had a surgeon who just thought it was fun to cut people open and sew them back up (I've assisted in a lot of surgeries, and it IS pretty nifty), but didn't give a damn about whether the patient survived the procedure, and therefore didn't bother to take appropriate precautions to ensure a good outcome... would you hire that person for your own surgery?

OK, Imma stop now, because I've taken this tangent waaay off topic, but some things just beg to be addressed.

Yeah. Then again, so are kids starving to death in the Third World, but that's been ignored for decades.

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If only there were some sort of organized LIVE AID to maybe FEED THE CHILDREN out there. Or a MERCY CORPS to maybe SAVE THE CHILDREN. Or a place where you could donate a HEIFER or two INTERNATIONALly to help feed entire villages.

If only...

Tazlima said:

Seriously? So as long as it's on the books, you enforce it? No questions asked?

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Seconding. Because it's absolutely, patently, provably untrue, and for a guy who values honesty, Mondo, this is disingenuous. My husband, a white guy in a suit, driving a nice car, got stopped going 80!!!! in a 60-zone on the freeway. He was late for a flight. Trooper let him off with a warning. And that shit happens all the time in every jurisdiction in America. Hell, people who rape aren't charged because "it's haaaaaaaard." You said so yourself.

The War on Drugs (no quotes around that, because it IS a real thing) is ineffective, and a colossal waste of time and resources, human and otherwise. Period. It hasn't worked since the Reagan era. Time to stop the insanity and come up with a new plan. I understand police aren't supposed ignore the law, but they do, in many situations. Common sense still does have a place in our society. We aren't to RoboCop yet.

I know a number of cops -- many of whom are concerned with justice, don't just arrest anyone, actually attempt to help people, have people stay on their minds and go back and check on them, etc.

Your view of addicts, Mondo, is also perhaps skewed by the people you come in contact with -- but those aren't addicts, they're the people you come in contact with.

Most addicts are employed.

Over half of the adults aged 18 or older with substance dependence or abuse were employed full time in 2013. Of the 20.3 million adults who were classified with dependence or abuse, 11.3 million (55.7 percent) were employed full time.

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Rates of substance abuse and addiction have been declining for a while. Heroin use, however, has been increasing, but the people using are not the hopeless, broken addicts you paint a picture of either.

In 2000, black Americans aged 45-64 had the highest death rate for drug poisoning involving heroin. Now, white people aged 18-44 have the highest rate. The share of people who say they have used heroin in the past year is actually decreasing for non-whites. Heroin has taken hold of the white suburbs...

Almost half of people addicted to heroin are also addicted to painkillers. People are 40 times more likely to be addicted to heroin if they are addicted to prescription painkillers. Abuse of prescription painkillers is incredibly common — one in 20 Americans age 12 and older reported using painkillers for non-medical reasons in the past year.

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Mondo said:

The problem with syringes, as I understand it (not an EMT) is trying to get the drug into an OD'ing junkie. The auto injectors are vastly more effective that a conventional injection, and in these days of fentaynl and high-purity heroin your window of opportunity for life-saving is much smaller than in years past.

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That makes some sense, but it still seems syringes and training on how to use them would be vastly preferable over simply not having Narcan in any form, not to mention infinitely better than the “three strikes and you die” nonsense that started this thread.

I’m not going to get into the discussion on what could actually stop or greatly reduce the abuse of opiates. This thread is full of great ideas, and I have some of my own, but it’s all radical and often expensive stuff which is never going to happen, at least not in this political climate. So probably better to focus on how we can help first responders have the drugs they need, as that stands some chance of actually being accomplished.

Mondo said:

I have never concerned myself with those sort of questions.

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Mondo said:

I've never trusted UNICEF.

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You seem to do this a lot, divert and blow off questions with flip responses.

Mondo said:

I don't see anyone declaring that addicts are human filth. Did I miss something in the article?

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You've repeatedly called them junkies, a pejorative term.

Heroin doesn't come close to making up the majority of opioid users. Many come to opioid addiction from licit use of drugs prescribed for pain. I realize this thread started in reference to heroin overdoses, but throughout opioid users have been lumped together as if they were all the same, which is flat wrong, and even if we were only talking about homeless heroin addicts, labeling them as if they were human filth isn't appropriate.

Mondo said:

Neither of those are flip responses. I do not trust UNICEF, and I haven't concerned myself with those sort of questions.




You are inventing the human filth term just for drama's sake.

Too much drama.

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More like dodging the question.

By the way, do you support the proposed law in the article you cited?

Mondo said:

No, isn't. You not getting an answer that you want does not mean that I dodged the question.

Its not a law, it is either a city ordinance or policy.

I find it interesting. Its medical, so it isn't my problem even if I lived in that city in Ohio, which I don't. You don't see much play on the fentanyl crisis in the media.

I'm not sure what you mean by support, but if my city decided to adopt this policy I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I see worse things than dead junkies on a weekly basis. And to be clear, I don't loose sleep over them, either. You don't last long in this business if the suffering of strangers upsets you. A proper emotional distance is key.

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Or, you shouldn't be a cop if the suffering of strangers does not upset you -- same as doctor.

As to the bolded, you keep saying this stuff, like that, like you don't think either candidate addressed addiction, etc., etc. They're just not true. What you choose to personally read or listen to or what have you is not 'media coverage,' it's what YOU see. Same as addicts you see are not addicts in general.

Mondo said:

No, isn't. You not getting an answer that you want does not mean that I dodged the question.

Its not a law, it is either a city ordinance or policy.

I find it interesting. Its medical, so it isn't my problem even if I lived in that city in Ohio, which I don't. You don't see much play on the fentanyl crisis in the media.

I'm not sure what you mean by support, but if my city decided to adopt this policy I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I see worse things than dead junkies on a weekly basis. And to be clear, I don't loose sleep over them, either. You don't last long in this business if the suffering of strangers upsets you. A proper emotional distance is key.

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Thank you for answering: you're indifferent to it.

Though it may not be your problem you could still have an opinion on the matter, just as it's not my problem but I made my opinion clear.

By 'support' I meant whether you thought it was a good idea, bad idea, went too far, etc. I won't lose any sleep on this, especially as it's just an idea being floated by a lone councilman, but I still think it's barbaric and incredibly dimwitted.

And to reemphasize this ordinance/policy would enact the following: If a person ODs for the third time before completing community service hours equivalent to the cost of the reversal drug, 911 dispatch would not send any help. Not that they won't use the reversal drug, not that they won't take you to a hospital to receive treatment, they won't send anyone. Period.

Hoplite said:

If a person ODs for the third time before completing community service hours equivalent to the cost of the reversal drug, 911 dispatch would not send any help. Not that they won't use the reversal drug, not that they won't take you to a hospital to receive treatment, they won't send anyone. Period.

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Time for a bit of math. Looks like the dollar value of community service varies from place to place, so this is a hard number to pin down, but for the sake of simplicity let's say that:

1) The drugs in question are correctly valued at the $3,000 stated upthread, and only one dose needs to be paid for.

2) Community service is valued at the Ohio minimum wage of $8.15/hour.

3) The individual in question has no other work or school obligations, has no disability that would prevent him/her from performing the necessary work, and can therefore work 40 hours a week.


The person on their third strike would have to work approx. 368 hours of community service, or (rounding down) 9 weeks of full-time labor, before they'd qualify for medical treatment.

So bare minimum, they'd have 9 weeks without emergency care. And what if they had a different emergency? A stroke or heart attack or something? Would they be refused emergency services for that? After all, how does 911 know that they're not actually ODing and the person calling is either mistaken or lying about the nature of the problem?

There are so many problems with this plan that it's hard to even know where to start.